Icariin / Testofen : The Thundergod Stack

[celc5]

TheThundergod Stack
~2g Bulk Horny Goat Weed (20% Icariin)
~2g Bulk Testofen

While being entertained by Thundergod's philosophical language in his logs, I found a bunch of gems of advice along the way. The man strongly stands by his bulk powder icariin and testofen stack. IMO his opinion is as honest and reliable as anyone on this board.

I'm currently on day 20 of post cycle therapy following a Havoc/Furazadrol to Superdrol bridge. The cycle was very successful and had a relatively quick recovery on all accounts EXCEPT for libido.

Unfortunately, I'm a non-responder to just about every test booster that I've tried to this point. I usually respond very well to libido enhancers such as Paravol, Ejaculoid, and tribulus. Unfortunately, no response this time during this difficult time period.

My main goal for this stack is libido enhancement. If I get some strength or lean mass from the stack, it will be a bonus as I honestly don't expect much in that category.

Testofen Review

Pros
-significantly increased testicular mass
-mild pde5-inhibitor like effects with male size
-mild libido enhancement
-mild muscle hardness
-mild vascularity
-mild mood enhancement

Cons
-severe gas
-mild laxative like effects with soft stool
-most will want to cap this powder, although some might tolerate it
-takes about 14 days to "kick in"

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Good feedback early on. Keep us updated. What were you dosing the trib at that it didnt work this time? Proto/sapo content in it?

 

[Steveoph]

Bulk Testofen was good at 2g/ED. 4g should show even more effects.

I wish we carried some bulk Naringin/Bioperine to make your icariin better absorpted, but 4g should be more than enough. With 800mg/day actives, you might notice dry joints, just up the fish oils/EFA's.

 

[celc5]

Good feedback early on. Keep us updated. What were you dosing the trib at that it didnt work this time? Proto/sapo content in it?

I was taking 2 tabs of the 1g NOW trib twice per day. I'm pretty sure it's either 40 or 45% steroidal sap. Nothing against the prop blends or the trib, I just think I was shut down hard and then may have overzealously squashed estrogen on top of that.

Bulk Testofen was good at 2g/ED. 4g should show even more effects.

I wish we carried some bulk Naringin/Bioperine to make your icariin better absorpted, but 4g should be more than enough. With 800mg/day actives, you might notice dry joints, just up the fish oils/EFA's.

I've dabbled with Fenugreek in the past and found it to be only moderately effective. It's still a bit unclear to me the difference between fenugreek and testofen as I admittedly still have some more research to do. These bulk powders are cheap which allows me to dose aggressively at TG's recommendation.

On the flip side, you make an interesting point on the joint issue. If issues arise, I can always back off on the dosage. I've had my right elbow reconstructed and dislocated my left shoulder in the past, but haven't had any issues in about 6-8 months thankfully.

 

[Trauma1]

I'll be following along celc. I agree with our boy "ThunderGod". He's most certainly a great asset to this board.

 

[celc5]

Day 1

GAG, twice today I choked down 2g each of the testofen and HGW. The HGW absolutely MUST be capped fellas. I had to play some serious mind games to not barf my brains out. It's almost as bad as bulk cissus powder.

The fen MIGHT be tolerable as a powder. But it's still some pretty nasty stuff. If I have enough nutracaps, I'll be capping both powders tomorrow.

The consistency of both powders is unusually dry, which makes for poor dump and chase strategies.

No changes to report other than a few easily provoked libido surges. I have a feeling this stack is going to do the trick within a few days :head:

Just to add to detail, I'm still finishing out my Torem taper alongside a nice easy 300mg dose of 6oxo. I'll eventually taper the 6oxo as well.

Others supps:
creatine mono
occasional xtend
either 2 caps RPM or 1/2 scoop Fast Twitch preworkout
multi/fish oil/ yadda yadda

 

[thundergod]

Day 1

GAG, twice today I choked down 2g each of the testofen and HGW. The HGW absolutely MUST be capped fellas. I had to play some serious mind games to not barf my brains out. It's almost as bad as bulk cissus powder.

The fen MIGHT be tolerable as a powder. But it's still some pretty nasty stuff. If I have enough nutracaps, I'll be capping both powders tomorrow.

The consistency of both powders is unusually dry, which makes for poor dump and chase strategies.

No changes to report other than a few easily provoked libido surges. I have a feeling this stack is going to do the trick within a few days :head:
Just to add to detail, I'm still finishing out my Torem taper alongside a nice easy 300mg dose of 6oxo. I'll eventually taper the 6oxo as well.

Others supps:
creatine mono
occasional xtend
either 2 caps RPM or 1/2 scoop Fast Twitch preworkout
multi/fish oil/ yadda yadda

I am REALLY trying to choke back the laughter right now!! :lol: And I know it's not even funny. The HGW is THE worst tasting stuff I have ever put upon my palate! I still do the "dump and chase" with both products. It won't kill ya! ha ha Might make you wish it would however!! :twisted: But at the same time it (HGW) is THE most effective libido kicker I have found. I'll look up a study I saw showing how much of the actives in it (the Icariin) compares to the active ingredient in viagra. The Sidefinil or whatever it's called. I shoulda looked it up before posting. But I'll find it if you're interested. But from memory, 1 gram of HGW provides 200 mg. of Icariin which is equivalent to 20 mg. of the sidefinil (SP??) in the viagra. I tend to believe it. And you're already experiencing a libido surge as well. It takes a couple of days for most compounds to start working in the body, so just hang in there brother celc. And the Testofen in the dosages you're taking is going to act like Clomid from my experiences. Did you know the studies done at GenCorp only used 600 mg. of Testofen per day?? And free test doubled after 6 weeks at that small dose. They showed bloodwork from many testers ranging from hard training athletes to non-trained persons. And you're taking 4 grams??!! I only take 2 grams at most. You are gonna love 4 grams of this ball-swelling stuff!! Sorry for the extrememly wordy response, I just wanted to give you the reasons why I think the 2 compounds work so well for me. I used it for my last PCT, and now I've been on a natty run for 3 weeks and I just decided to continue the 2 compounds and consider it a real long PCT (8 weeks) and my libido for the last 3 weeks has been downright frightening. I've turned into a sexual Mr. Hyde!! :twisted: But Mrs. Thunder is loving it!!!! :whip: Keep me updated about your success with this celc. I KNOW it will prove successful for you!! I push these 2 products and DHEA all the time on these forums. It's nice to find some people listen and receive the benefits thereof!! And I am totally humbled by your kind comments. And Trauma1's kind words as well. You gentlemen have been incredibly helpful to me over my 11 month stay here so far. Danke mein bruders!! Bis Spater!! :wave:

 

[thundergod]

I'll be following along celc. I agree with our boy "ThunderGod". He's most certainly a great asset to this board.

Bro. I don't even know how to respond to this. I have a lump in my throat right now. I am so humbled by your kindness and congeniality. You are a total gentlemen sir. It has been my honor and pleasure to get to know you on these forums. People like yourself, celc5, Tripdog, Crader, and many others have been a real blessing to the Thundergod since I've been here. I couldn't mention everybody else or this thread would be filled with names of the nice people here who have befriended the Thundergod. Thank you Trauma1, and thanks to all the others!!! I LOVE YOU ALL!! :box:

 

[thundergod]

I just think I was shut down hard and then may have overzealously squashed estrogen on top of that.

I'm going to have to be a little bit nosey here and ask what you used that squashed your estrogen. I'm sure we have the culprit here in your libido problem. Everytime I have seen people lower estrogen too much, this happens. It's what happens with ATD that makes most people hate it. It does an amazing job at lowering estrogen. Too good. Above 80%. It's just too strong for people to be taking 100 mg. doses of it. I only use 25 mg. of it and I'm 260 lbs!! We have to be careful with these AI's. A little usually goes a long way. The Havoc itself was keeping estro at bay, were you using something more??!! :think:

 

[vikinginc]

I will without a doubt be following this one ! Reduced libido is something I deal with as a result of stressing out about work/school and dieting hardcore. Every time I cut, my libido is virtually non-existant !

Best of luck to you ! I'm hoping this'll convince me to run Icariin and/or HGW alongside of Activate Xtreme just around the corner . .

And ThunderGod, you're a man of wise words, indeed. And without a doubt a great asset to this site!

 

[str1]

I am subbed for this ride, interested in seeing how it goes

 

[thundergod]

And now 2 more of my Viking Norse brothers have arrived!!! Wilkommen Bruders!! Vikinginc, your kindness is without bounds my friend. Truly the heart of the Thundergod sings with joy anon this morning!! Odin Bless You All!!! :box: :head:

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Great info TG. I was thinking Coq Diesel had a similar profile of ingredients but I am unsure and cannot look it up (at work). Although I bet no where near those dosages.

 

[celc5]

Day 2

from memory, 1 gram of HGW provides 200 mg. of Icariin which is equivalent to 20 mg. of the sidefinil (SP??) in the viagra

Interesting. I'll look forward to learning more if you come up with a link to the study. There is some good icariin information in the Drive/RPM posts in the AN forum. They were pretty convincing evidence to back up your recommendation.

Testofen...act like Clomid...ball-swelling stuff!!

Interestingly, my girl told me last night that my balls felt huge. I figured it was probably because she just felt them atrophied over the past few weeks :think: I'll keep that in mind as time goes by.

I'm going to have to be a little bit nosey here and ask what you used that squashed your estrogen.

I used AX Superdrol in the second half of my cycle in a bridge, which I believe is more anti-estrogenic than I anticipated. I ran TD form/trione at a low dose alongside to maintain libido and to prevent gyno. However, the libido was strong until the last day of the cycle when it crashed. Ya, too much anti-estrogen probably.

Then I ran Torem at the typical aggressive taper starting at 120. It brought back testicular mass really quickly but is a proven libido killer for me. I probably should have kept running the form/trione for a week or 2 into pct. That was stupid stopping the SD and AI combo all at once in terms of libido. But, health wise, I think it was a great move because I feel fully recovered today at day 22 pct.

Reduced libido is something I deal with as a result of stressing out about work/school and dieting hardcore

In my experience, all of the typically popular libido enhancers do the trick when stress is affecting libido. I also suggest USP labs PowerFull or bulk tryptophan to enhance quality of sleep to reduce stress. 500mg-1g of Tyrosine with my morning shake and pre/during drinks also has mood enhancing/stress reducing affects for me. All of the above are really cheap and worth a shot IMO.

I am subbed for this ride, interested in seeing how it goes

Welcome aboard my friend. Feel free to join the discussion!

Great info TG. I was thinking Coq Diesel had a similar profile of ingredients but I am unsure and cannot look it up (at work). Although I bet no where near those dosages.

You're probably right. You're going to see some small doses of both HGW and fen in a lot of prop blend products. If you read closely, you'll see different active percentages of the HGW listed as Icariin (see RPM/Drive labels). And yes, prop blends are almost always waaay underdosed. So the bulk powders are going to let me experiment with dosages without breaking the bank.

 

[mattikus]

If looking for any additional support, you may want to look into Sustain Alpha. Stuff is awesome and raises libido quite a bit for me, even after a long surpressive cycle.

Also, fen always makes the balls hang low and wobble to and fro.. good stuff.:thumbsup:

 

[Beau]

I'll be following along celc. I agree with our boy "ThunderGod". He's most certainly a great asset to this board.

Agreed.

 

[celc5]

Mattikus, did you have any testicular atrophy during your said suppressive cycle? If so, how quickly did mass return with Sustain? Did you also use a serm, or just the res?

Beau, welcome brotha! :cheers:

I just finished capping my HGW. I got 270 "0" caps from the 100 grams so that's 370mg per cap. I'm gonna take 5 caps morning and 5 caps evening which are equal to about 1850mg per dose (total 3700mg/day).

I've also found that the testofen mixes just fine with Syntrax Iced Tea protein OR OJ/vanilla protein. The aftertaste is really potent, but thankfully doesn't stick around. I'm also going to back off on that dosage to 1g 2x per day (total of 2g) because of TG's suggestion and Stephof's suggestion. That should make the taste more tolerable as well.

 

[celc5]

Day 4

The stack is starting to kick in libido wise. I had improved male performance last night. It was better than the past few weeks, but still not quite up to my normal Leon Phelps status

The main thing I noticed was improved stamina and ability to maintain for a bit longer session.

I'm pleased that this inexpensive stack is kicking in a bit so quickly. I anticipate more good things are to come

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Dont worry you'll be there in no time I'm sure. The PCT's I have done with sustain seemed pretty effective. Its hard to say it was all due to Sustain alone since every pct I have done has been very successful even with different protocols.

 

[thebigt]

damn, a celc5 log with a double whammy of tg thrown in, better take some notes.:thumbsup:

 

[celc5]

Royd, thanks for the Sustain feedback. And, it's refreshing when people actually get my silly jokes :lol:

TheBigT, I knew you'd be on board eventually. Just trying out some alternatives to the test boosters.

Another update for today, I took my second dose of HGW preworkout just to experiment. And I had a sick pump today. I'd say I typically have average vascular response in the gym, but today was noticably enhanced. I have no idea if the HGW had any effect on strength or endurance bc the workout generally very light. I'll experiment more with this as I go.

I keep forgetting to mention. When I was researching the testofen, I came across IDS testofen. One of it's claims was that testofen had PDE-5 inhibitory qualities. I dunno bout that, cause a single drop of Aspire liquid has me going crazy for 48 hrs. This is another topic I'm sure we'll revisit.

 

[thundergod]

Another update for today, I took my second dose of HGW preworkout just to experiment. And I had a sick pump today. I'd say I typically have average vascular response in the gym, but today was noticably enhanced. I have no idea if the HGW had any effect on strength or endurance bc the workout generally very light. I'll experiment more with this as I go.

I keep forgetting to mention. When I was researching the testofen, I came across IDS testofen. One of it's claims was that testofen had PDE-5 inhibitory qualities. I dunno bout that, cause a single drop of Aspire liquid has me going crazy for 48 hrs. This is another topic I'm sure we'll revisit.

First: The HGW has a xanthine effect on me as well.It makes me feel like I do when taking a light ECA stack. It gives me a energy rush for a while. Great for pre-workout. Be sure to take one of your doses 1 or 2 hours B4 WO. Second: I've read that about the Testofen also. From IDS. Have you seen the GenCorp studies on Testofen that showed bloodwork from the testers?? That one is very interesting! I'm glad you're liking the stack. Maybe more people will jump on the Thundergod-Sex-Stack!! You'll make love like a GOD!!! :box:

 

[thesinner]

Sinner stoppin' by.

 

[celc5]

Day 6

Male performance stamina is really nice with this stack. I'm very pleased that I haven't been using any Aspire since I started with HGW/Testofen. Desire remains a bit shaky but is slowly getting better every day.

Workouts have been great but I honestly don't think either has made an impact at this point, other than vascularity. I'm not sure that I feel anything like TG described in terms of ECA effect. I've used ephedrine quite a bit last summer and NOTHING comes close to 25 or 50mg of ephedrine. However, I'm realistic and patient as this might be something that builds up in the system with time.

I'd be VERY interested with seeing the GenCorp studies on testofen that TG mentioned. I've had a friend in town for the holiday weekend and just haven't had the time to hit the old search button.

Off topic, I went to the Pro Football Hall of Fame on Friday. I swear that boosted testosterone as much as any supplement!!! :head:

 

[thesinner]

good ol' Canton, OH.

 

[thundergod]

Did you happen to see all of this info celc? http://Testofen Benefits? I'm pretty sure you might have seen this one when you bought your testofen. I'll try to find the GenCorp studies showing the bloodwork of the testers for you when I have the time. Got to rush off to work right now!! Bis Spater!!

 

[celc5]

sinner, Canton's a pretty unassuming town. But man, worth the trip for anyone who has never been to the HOF. My favorite part was definately the memorabilia from the players in the 90's... Elway, Marino, Barry Sanders. So much that I had to get out an old '99 playoff VHS of Denver v. Miami :head:

TG, broken link brotha, but I'd guess you're talking about the write-up for the bulk powder. So yes, it sounds impressive. And I had 2 people ask me if I doused myself in syrup before going to holiday events :lol: Ha! For those who don't know, the Testofen will make you smell like syrup/honey just like fenugreek dose.

 

[UNCfan1]

I am following just in case I need a libido stack down the road!

Another great Celc log:thumbsup:

 

[celc5]

UNC, welcome bro!

Day 7

Body comp wise, I think I felt some hardening today. Nothing incredibly spectacular, but it was enough to build a little anticipation to see what happens in week 2 and 3. Vascularity was mildly enhanced again today, but definately enough for me to notice.

Workout wise, I haven't noticed any enhanced strength, endurance, motivation, or stim-like effects.

Libido is a bit shaky today. But I'm confident that I could have performed to a satisfactory level if needed.

 

[thundergod]

UNC, welcome bro!

Day 7

Body comp wise, I think I felt some hardening today. Nothing incredibly spectacular, but it was enough to build a little anticipation to see what happens in week 2 and 3. Vascularity was mildly enhanced again today, but definately enough for me to notice.

Workout wise, I haven't noticed any enhanced strength, endurance, motivation, or stim-like effects.

Libido is a bit shaky today. But I'm confident that I could have performed to a satisfactory level if needed.

Sorry about that broken link I posted earlier. I'll find some more. But it was the one you read on BN's site when you purchased your Testofen. I assume you got it at BN. Even though you will experience "some" body comp changes, and a slight increase in vascularity, this stack is not primarily for strength or stim-like effects, nor even any NOS type of results. I think those are just a couple of the "fringe" benefits that go along with it. It primarily is a Test-Recovery stack. The Icariin is a "testosterone-mimicker" and the fenugreek is like natty Clomid and encourages the release of LH/FSH. So it may not be a pure libido enhancer. But more accurately, it's a performance enhancer! This is what I mainly experience from it. This is why I always include this stack in my PCT's. And about the difference in Libido/Performance: I have found that there are certain compounds that improve performance, but libido is a tricky little mechanism. As long as I can perform whenever the situation calls for it, I'm not too worried about the intense libido-desire or even craving of sexual contact. As long as my Soldier can stand at attention when revele sounds, that's what really matters most!! :lol:

 

[celc5]

TG, that's a pretty darn good post. Interesting with the LH/FSH points with the testofen. I think testicular mass is even a bit more than it was pre-cycle. But load size isn't back to par yet. I'd expect both to go hand-in-hand (no pun intended :lol: ) with LH/FSH???

Day 8

Since today's post would be similar to yesterday's, I'll hit on another topic: Serms.

It's a common notion that Clomid is the only serm to have been proven in independent studies to instigate testosterone recovery. I've seen several lackluster explanations but never was quite sold on any explanations.

Today on another board, I read a post that specified that the "selective" part of clomid focuses on estrogen control at the gonads, which is what instigates LH production. Wheras with Nolva, the selectivity is focused on breast tissue.

I'm waiting for permission from the original poster to quote that post. If he's cool with it, I'll share it here.

This might be elementary for some of you. But it's the first time I've ever seen an explanation for differences in serm function. I have a feeling this is going to lead to a lot more learning for me :head:

 

[thundergod]

TG, that's a pretty darn good post. Interesting with the LH/FSH points with the testofen. I think testicular mass is even a bit more than it was pre-cycle. But load size isn't back to par yet. I'd expect both to go hand-in-hand (no pun intended :lol: ) with LH/FSH???

Today on another board, I read a post that specified that the "selective" part of clomid focuses on estrogen control at the gonads, which is what instigates LH production. Wheras with Nolva, the selectivity is focused on breast tissue.

I have a feeling this is going to lead to a lot more learning for me :head:

And this is why we're here brother celc!! More learning!! FIRST: I think it is completely possible to increase LH/FSH without load-size being directly affected. It's weird how certain products like Paravol will increase your loads as will real Clomid. But things like fenugreek while improving performance (dramatically from my experiences) won't increase seminal volume much. I'm not sure as to why guys want huge volumes of semen actually. Does this represent greater "manliness"? I just think it increases the chances of knocking a chick up!! SECOND: I already knew that the different SERMS target different body tissues specifically. The Nolva is mainly breast-site specific. It's mainly for guys who worry about gyno. It is the better choice for gyno control over Clomid. But since the main focus of Nolva is gyno protection, this is why I don't use it. Apart from the greater hepa-toxicity issues it has over Clomid as well. Nolva is more toxic to the liver than most of the designers these guys are taking on their cycles! CLOMID has always been my SERM of choice. It goes straight to the BALLZ!! :lol: Exactly my point of focus after a suppressive anabolic cycle! THIRD: It is my desire that these discussions you and I have embarked upon will lead to great amounts of response from this board's wise contributors! :thumbsup:

 

[lennoxchi]

i'm in for the ride on this one..........keep us posted.

 

[sarcazmo]

Thanks for that clarification on clomid's nut-specific actions. I just wish there was something else besides clomid which did the trick without all the vision-related side effects. Any comparisons to toremifine in this regard?

 

[celc5]

Thanks for that clarification on clomid's nut-specific actions. I just wish there was something else besides clomid which did the trick without all the vision-related side effects. Any comparisons to toremifine in this regard?

Actually that's one of the things I want to find out. Where is the "selective" focus of Torem and Ralox?

In my experience, Torem squashes libido for me so I'd have a hard time believing that it acts directly on the gonads. On the plus side I've never had any gyno threats. Therefore, I'd suspect it functions more closely to Nolva but I still need to find out for sure.

 

[celc5]

Day 10

Ok fellas, I think The Thundergod stack is kicking in! Male performance was above average and stamina was significantly enhanced. Lidibo was well above average yesterday as well.

The only confounding variable is that my last tapered dose of Torem was 2 days ago. It really seemed as if every time I tapered, libido and performance went up a notch. What a bunch of broski bulllshiit that Torem enhances libido. I can't wait to get the detailed technical explanation from the other board.

Anyway, sensation is still slightly down but approaching normal. Load size is still too small for my liking. But I have no idea if that's actually important or not to be honest.

In the gym, I'm not noticing any effects. But I do notice a slight hardening effect that dose last all day.

So far, this is certainly a cost effective stack.

 

[celc5]

Day 12

Libido is starting to increase over the past few days and pretty much back to normal since ending the cycle. Bedroom performance has been back to normal in most categories. Performance is enhanced significantly in terms of stamina, slightly in terms of hardness, and slightly in terms of size.

I made a slight change again to the protocol. I capped my testofen because I wanted to see what it was like to take it on an empty stomach. I feel a mild sense of mental clarity following the testofen dosages on an empty stomach.

Neither the testofen nor HGW gives an immediate libido boost like some of the popular prop blends. But the performance is definately there when it's gametime.

 

[thundergod]

Not bad for a very inexpensive little 12 day run. Consider that I have been running it for 8 weeks now!! I'm like a dog in heat!! :smite: I'm coming off of it Wednesday however. That's when I start my new cycle. I've had a good clean 2 month natty run. It's time for some dirty stuff!!! :twisted:

 

[STUD1982]

.... Consider that I have been running it for 8 weeks now!! I'm like a dog in heat!! :smite: ....:

Your libido is that high now?

 

[thesinner]

Cool on the performance enhancement. The furostanol sapponins (I'm pretty sure that's at least part of testofen) should really help with free test levels.

 

[thundergod]

Your libido is that high now?

Yep. Hotter than a 4-balled tom-cat!! :whip: :lol:

 

[celc5]

Cool on the performance enhancement. The furostanol sapponins (I'm pretty sure that's at least part of testofen) should really help with free test levels.

To be honest, at this point I think most of the effects of this stack are coming from the icariin. Of course, it's very difficult to tell what's doing what since this the first time I'm running either of these supplements, so I could be way off.

Sin, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't furostanol from testofen simalr to 25r spirostans like in B.A.M. and MassFx? Or is it just that furostanol is a class of spirostans :think:

In which case, it took a good 4 weeks before I noticed anything whatsoever with BAM. Luckily, with TG's advice, I have plenty of bulk powder to ride out this inexpensive experiment for a solid 6 or 8 weeks if I feel like it.

And while we're on the topic of of the testofen, could you fellas enlighten me a bit about the difference between fenugreek and testofen? I've been doing some searches and quite frankly, I'm stumped as to whether they're even related in any way other than marketing claims and sound-alike names.

 

[thundergod]

In which case, it took a good 4 weeks before I noticed anything whatsoever with BAM. Luckily, with TG's advice, I have plenty of bulk powder to ride out this inexpensive experiment for a solid 6 or 8 weeks if I feel like it.

And while we're on the topic of of the testofen, could you fellas enlighten me a bit about the difference between fenugreek and testofen? I've been doing some searches and quite frankly, I'm stumped as to whether they're even related in any way other than marketing claims and sound-alike names.

I think you would really enjoy continuing this ride for a while longer. Like I said earlier, I've been on this stack (with a few other things) for 7 weeks now as a natty run, and it really kicks in after 3 weeks or so. I'm going to miss it when I start my new cycle Wednesday. :sad: Oh well, I've got plenty of it in bulk for later!! :woohoo: And about the testofen and fenugreek similarities, all I have been able to find is that testofen is made from an extract of fenugreek and they called it fenusides. The testofen says it is a 50% fenuside extract. I'm not sure what all that really means. But that was on an old IDS website, I think. :think:

 

[celc5]

all I have been able to find is that testofen is made from an extract of fenugreek and they called it fenusides. The testofen says it is a 50% fenuside extract.

I think what I saw said testofen (50%) as well. I just assumed fenusides, so thanks for confirming TG. So the question is, what percentage fenusides in fenugreek, if any???

TG, I've been meaning to ask, did you ever try the old "Testofen" product? I dunno for sure but I'm pretty sure it was by Scivation and went off the shelves. If I remember correctly, I think it was underdosed and that's why it didn't sell. Now in hindsight, it might have been a nice product had it been this inexpensive.

 

[thundergod]

I think what I saw said testofen (50%) as well. I just assumed fenusides, so thanks for confirming TG. So the question is, what percentage fenusides in fenugreek, if any???
TG, I've been meaning to ask, did you ever try the old "Testofen" product? I dunno for sure but I'm pretty sure it was by Scivation and went off the shelves. If I remember correctly, I think it was underdosed and that's why it didn't sell. Now in hindsight, it might have been a nice product had it been this inexpensive.

I too am still uncertain as to the correlation between the fenusides and the fenugreek itself. I understood the term fenusides to be a generic reference to the extract of fenugreek. They merely termed it "fenusides". And yeah, I saw the old Scivation ads. Never tried their stuff though. The only fenugreek I have ever used is this BN bulk testofen powder. I am very pleased with it myself. And the price is very hard to beat! :woohoo:

 

[celc5]

Day 15

Been meaning to discuss the only negative effect that I've had on this stack. I've had some rancid gas. Now I'm just like you guys and take pride in occasionally clearing out a room :lol: But since about day 8 or 9, the gas is like every 5 minutes. To be honest, it's past the point of being amusing and I'm starting to piss people off. Also no stomach pains, no cramping, no other issues.

So since then, I've been messing with dosing high and low, splitting up dosages, etc. And I'm pretty sure the culprit is the HGW.

The dosing schedule that I'm on right now is helping to reduce those symptoms is 600mg Fenutest and 300mg Icariin 5-6x per day.

 

[thebigt]

i think the pp pyto-test is high grade extract of fenotest, it has a trademark and it aint cheap. none the les it looks solid. i am using dermacrine now [3rd week] and like it, but i seem to respond well to dhea/preg.

 

[thundergod]

Day 15

Been meaning to discuss the only negative effect that I've had on this stack. I've had some rancid gas. Now I'm just like you guys and take pride in occasionally clearing out a room :lol: But since about day 8 or 9, the gas is like every 5 minutes. To be honest, it's past the point of being amusing and I'm starting to piss people off. Also no stomach pains, no cramping, no other issues.

To be honest, I've never experienced the bothersome gas attacks. Looks like you need to pick up a pack of Gas-X!! That'll fix you right up. After a few explosions!! :gas::fart:

 

[celc5]

BigT, thanks for the update. I've been wondering how the dermacrine was treating you. I'll have to look into the phyto test to see if it reveals anything in regards to our fenusides % discussion.

TG, I have some Gut Health on the way. It has worked well for me in the past. After a few days, I hope it allows me to dose aggressively again.

At first I didn't suspect anything in this stack to be causing the gas. I thought that maybe I was just sensitive after having GI issues with hyperdrol a few weeks ago. But with hyperdrol, the problem list included pain, mild dry heaves, and diarhea...

 

[thesinner]

To be honest, at this point I think most of the effects of this stack are coming from the icariin. Of course, it's very difficult to tell what's doing what since this the first time I'm running either of these supplements, so I could be way off.

Sin, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't furostanol from testofen simalr to 25r spirostans like in B.A.M. and MassFx? Or is it just that furostanol is a class of spirostans :think:

In which case, it took a good 4 weeks before I noticed anything whatsoever with BAM. Luckily, with TG's advice, I have plenty of bulk powder to ride out this inexpensive experiment for a solid 6 or 8 weeks if I feel like it.

And while we're on the topic of of the testofen, could you fellas enlighten me a bit about the difference between fenugreek and testofen? I've been doing some searches and quite frankly, I'm stumped as to whether they're even related in any way other than marketing claims and sound-alike names.

It would be a sapponin. Similar to some of the spirostanes (type of sapponnin), but not 25Rdiol or either of the compounds found in BAM. Those guys have an oxygen substitution at carbon 3, while a furostanol sapponin would have a furazol group.

Furostanol is actually furazabol minus the methyl group . Same thing as Furazadrol by Axis labs. Testofen should contain some sapponins with a furostanol base.

To my knowledge testosfen is just an extract of fenugreek. Fenugreek has the sapponins, but at a much much lower concentration.