[Ares]

Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd

I'm with hank on this one in the fact that it seems as though recently "broscience" has gotten a bad rep. There is reason for that however the underlying aspect of it is that "you do what works for you". Hank is doing what works for him, and in my experience a somewhat similar protocol also works for myself (forever adjusting obviously).

Always a good discussion though.

I think there is a lot of misconception here. No one told Hank he was doing anything wrong, but fairly stating a point of view that may help others one way or another, including myself. That is what forums are designed for, interaction.

Now back to Hank. Have you tried PWO with out the fat, and just protein and aminos? Not talking about carbs.

[EasyEJL]

Wouldnt you think that ingesting the aminos periworkout would be more valuable so they can make it thru stomach walls and into bloodstream by the time workout is done?

[VolcomX311]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

Wouldnt you think that ingesting the aminos periworkout would be more valuable so they can make it thru stomach walls and into bloodstream by the time workout is done?

Leucine, if ingested post workout has an effect at inducing augmented release of insulin, (I do believe). However, that's about as deep as I can get on that, in what pathways, how and why, ?no se? (you like the authentic double question mark? I took Spanish in high school).

I don't believe powder leucine has to work that hard to get into the blood stream.

[Royd The Noyd]

Originally Posted by VolcomX311

Leucine, if ingested post workout has an effect at inducing augmented release of insulin, (I do believe). However, that's about as deep as I can get on that, in what pathways, how and why, ?no se? (you like the authentic double question mark? I took Spanish in high school).

I don't believe powder leucine has to work that hard to get into the blood stream.

I think the below write up by Jacob Wilson goes into your question a little bit:

Does leucine ‘alone’ stimulate insulin secretion and is this how it exerts its effects on protein synthesis?

Studies are conflicting as some have found no increase in insulin when leucine is administered alone, while others have. To clarify Dr. Anthony and colleagues measured insulin levels immediately after leucine administration and found that it increased insulin from 15-45 minutes. Thus it appears that it does increase insulin transiently and that measuring insulin after this time frame will not yield significant increases.

In order to investigate if insulin modulates leucine’s effects, scientists will either block the action of insulin, or block insulin release. When this occurs leucine’s effects on protein synthesis are partly but not fully hindered. Recall that leucine increases S6, which is the ribosomal protein responsible for increasing the capacity of a cell to conduct protein synthesis. This is completely blocked when insulin is hindered. Leucine also enhances the initiation of translation (the initiation stage of protein synthesis) and this is only partly blocked when insulin is hindered. Thus, leucine has both insulin dependent and insulin independent effects on protein synthesis.

How much insulin is needed in order for leucine’s effects on protein synthesis to be maximized?

Leucine can maximally stimulate protein synthesis at fasting levels of insulin, and perhaps at slightly lower levels than this! Therefore spiking insulin levels for the purpose of enhancing leucines effects on protein synthesis do not appear to be necessary. Currently scientists are divided. Either insulin plays a supportive or passive role in supporting leucines effects on protein synthesis, or a direct role. Either way this is maximized at low levels.

Can insulin stimulate protein synthesis independent of leucine and other amino acids?

Insulin administered alone does not appear to have an effect on protein synthesis. The rationale is that insulin increases uptake of amino acids and therefore lowers their concentration in the blood when given alone. Extracellular amino acid levels are critical for protein synthesis to occur. However, when amino acid levels are maintained insulin may be able to stimulate protein synthesis when it is at extremely high levels. This is confirmed in studies which administer either insulin alone, or carbohydrates alone. No protein synthesis is stimulated and the individual remains in a muscle wasting condition. In contrast when amino acid levels are maintained protein synthesis is stimulated when insulin is raised to very high levels.

However, insulin potently decreases protein breakdown, independently of amino acids. In fact it is considered the main player in decreasing protein breakdown, but individuals remain in negative protein balance without aminos.

Can insulin and leucine work together in a synergistic fashion to increase muscle growth?

Like leucine, insulin appears to elicit its actions on protein synthesis through an mTOR dependent mechanism, as well as mTOR independent mechanisms. When leucine and insulin are combined their effects on increasing a cell’s capacity for protein synthesis are synergistic. This means that if insulin increases the capacity of a cell to increase protein synthesis 2 fold, and so does leucine, combined their effects are greater than 4 fold.

The current rationale is that insulin actually increases blood flow to muscle tissue, which if combined with increasing levels of amino acids (particularly leucine ) would increase amino acid concentrations and delivery to muscle tissue, thereby amplifying their effects.

Insulin increases blood flow + increased leucine à greater concentration of leucine surrounding muscle tissue à amplified effects on protein synthesis.

It is also important to note that as stated, leucine alone either does not or only transiently increases plasma insulin levels. Yet, when combined with insulin, it actually notably increases plasma insulin levels. The rationale is that insulin is cleared primarily through degradation (e.g. it is broken down like other proteins). Because leucine has anticatabolic effects, it may decrease insulin clearance levels.

Can you discuss more of the effects of insulin on protein breakdown?

Yes,

White leucine is the primary regulator of protein synthesis, insulin is the primary regulator of protein breakdown in that it decreases it by hindering pathways responsible for protein breakdown.

In an intriguing study participants were given one of three drinks after exercise. The first was a glucose drink, the second combined whey protein with glucose, while the third added leucine to the glucose / whey serving. Results indicated that protein balance was negative in the first condition, became positive in the glucose / whey condition, and increased again when leucine was added.

Here’s the interesting fact. Protein balance appeared to increase with increasing insulin levels. Finally they analyzed the relationship (correlation) between leucine and protein synthesis and insulin and protein synthesis. They found that leucine was positively related to protein synthesis (as leucine increases protein synthesis does as well), while insulin was not significantly correlated. However, insulin was inversely correlated to protein breakdown, meaning when insulin levels rise, protein breakdown decreases.

For practical applications on how to manipulate carbohydrates for insulin release see the following papers

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/laywindowsemi.php

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/laywindownon.php

Both exercise and leucine stimulate protein synthesis. Is there any time differences between the two?

Yes, leucine in a mixture of EAAs stimulates protein synthesis for 2-3 hours, where as exercise stimulates protein synthesis for up to 72 hours. The take home message is that you need amino acids with a high frequency.

The second take home message is that even though protein synthesis is elevated with exercise for 72 hours, these effects lower with time. In our publication on Contemporary issues in protein consumption we provided the following graph to demonstrate this

Figure 1.0. The response of protein synthesis to exercise. Adapted from
Wilson and Wilson (2006).

This is one of the reasons why HIT training may not be as effective as a higher frequency of training, which is able to maintain higher levels of protein synthesis throughout a 7 day period, then a once a week program, which has diminishing effects.

[Hank Vangut]

Originally Posted by Ares

Have you tried PWO with out the fat, and just protein and aminos? Not talking about carbs.

no, i haven't tried this.
i might have to try it as you do make some valid points on the fat not ideal pwo.
when i do use straight aminos i've always used them pre or during workout.

[Hank Vangut]

good read royd!

[Hank Vangut]

yesterday's diet update....

[Hank Vangut]

i want to also update that T-911 feels like a prohormone.
i don't know if i'll get the same body comp changes that prohormones deliver, but right now it feels exactly like being in week three of a prohormone run.

[VolcomX311]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Royd The Noyd again.

I tried bud, good read. I've read lots and lots and lots of articles like that, so I was all over the leucine threads, but its been awhile. This was in my religiously, disciplined PWO era, which I've mentioned before, I'm not as pressed about about these days.

[VolcomX311]

yeah Hank, the level of detail of your nutritional logs are really hurt'n my logging self esteem.

[VolcomX311]

Originally Posted by Hank Vangut

i want to also update that T-911 feels like a prohormone.
i don't know if i'll get the same body comp changes that prohormones deliver, but right now it feels exactly like being in week three of a prohormone run.

How would you say you react to Prohormones in terms of performance? I get both muscle strength and muscle endurance boosts, but the muscle endurance is the most dominant and notable front runner in my own experience.

[Hank Vangut]

Originally Posted by VolcomX311

How would you say you react to Prohormones in terms of performance? I get both muscle strength and muscle endurance boosts, but the muscle endurance is the most dominant and notable front runner in my own experience.

i'm typically the same. w/prohormones i get both strength and endurance