[Brian5225]

Originally Posted by maynehood171

Absolutely and to get protein from both sides is the best combination...

And if you were bulking some egg protein alongside all that would go beyond that...

Most definately. There's a place for most things. It's just doing the research to find it out.

[Universal Rep]

Useful discussion. Fellas, just want to point out the difference between "casein" and "micellar casein". If you're familiar with the Boirie studies, keep in mind they used MC... Micellar casein is not to be confused with calcium or sodium caseinates.

[celc5]

Originally Posted by Universal Rep

Useful discussion. Fellas, just want to point out the difference between "casein" and "micellar casein". If you're familiar with the Boirie studies, keep in mind they used MC... Micellar casein is not to be confused with calcium or sodium caseinates.

How are they different?

[vaporeized]

micellar undergoes a much more gentle manufacturing process, supposedly leaving more growth fractions still intact

[Universal Rep]

Millk basically contains two parts--the curd and the whey. The curd is what "precipitates" out and what's used to make cheese. The curd is also the part that's used to make micellar casein and caseinates for use in supps. Casein is made up of five things--alpha casein, beta casein, gamma casein, delta casein and kappa casein.

Long story short, the manufacturing process to get to micellar casein and caseinates are different. Caseinates use acid or rennet (enzyme) which destroy the micelle structure. Once destroyed, it can't be reformed. When this casein has been processed (to make it more water soluble), it's called caseinate. Micellar casein, on the other, goes through a process with the micelles are left intact.

Micellar casein is basically casein that occurs in a more natural state, without all the extra manufacturing steps. Micellar casein digests more effectively, contains important bioactive peptides, and is generally considered a higher quality protein.

The landmark studies looking at "fast" vs. "slow" proteins (Boirie) used micellar casein, not caseinates. Yet when most people talk about fast and slow proteins, they are not referring to micellar casein. Micellar casein is more expensive and harder to work with, but superior IMHO.

[Eiselt]

Originally Posted by Universal Rep

Millk basically contains two parts--the curd and the whey. The curd is what "precipitates" out and what's used to make cheese. The curd is also the part that's used to make micellar casein and caseinates for use in supps. Casein is made up of five things--alpha casein, beta casein, gamma casein, delta casein and kappa casein.

Long story short, the manufacturing process to get to micellar casein and caseinates are different. Caseinates use acid or rennet (enzyme) which destroy the micelle structure. Once destroyed, it can't be reformed. When this casein has been processed (to make it more water soluble), it's called caseinate. Micellar casein, on the other, goes through a process with the micelles are left intact.

Micellar casein is basically casein that occurs in a more natural state, without all the extra manufacturing steps. Micellar casein digests more effectively, contains important bioactive peptides, and is generally considered a higher quality protein.

The landmark studies looking at "fast" vs. "slow" proteins (Boirie) used micellar casein, not caseinates. Yet when most people talk about fast and slow proteins, they are not referring to micellar casein. Micellar casein is more expensive and harder to work with, but superior IMHO.

Have you ever seen a study comparing caseinate with casein? I don't think a study would show a difference, at least ot not in terms of net protein balance.

There is another study*, which you've probably read, comparing isolated whey protein, isolated casein (micellar) and total milk protein isolate which suggests a synergisitc effect of the 20% whey and 80% casein in TMP.

*Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):1070-9. [/url]

My first post at AM.

[Universal Rep]

Originally Posted by Eiselt

Have you ever seen a study comparing caseinate with casein? I don't think a study would show a difference, at least ot not in terms of net protein balance.

There is another study*, which you've probably read, comparing isolated whey protein, isolated casein (micellar) and total milk protein isolate which suggests a synergisitc effect of the 20% whey and 80% casein in TMP.

*Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):1070-9. [/url]

My first post at AM.

Net protein balance? Probably not.

But IMHO, that's not necessarily a compelling reason to run micellar casein. MC ain't that easy to work with, if ya ever tried it.

I agree with ya on the whole balance thing--like I said in the flaxseed vs. fishoil thread here, I think balance is key. When I run my own homebrews, I definitely blend with TMPs.

[Eiselt]

Originally Posted by Universal Rep

Net protein balance? Probably not.

But IMHO, that's not necessarily a compelling reason to run micellar casein. MC ain't that easy to work with, if ya ever tried it.

I agree with ya on the whole balance thing--like I said in the flaxseed vs. fishoil thread here, I think balance is key. When I run my own homebrews, I definitely blend with TMPs.

Our company uses TMP's since many years and I think it's excellent in terms of viscosity and taste compared to caseinate + whey. Never tried the pure MC. We can get everything from 80-95 % casein. I guess the one you call Micellar Casein is 95%, right?

[Universal Rep]

Originally Posted by Eiselt

Our company uses TMP's since many years and I think it's excellent in terms of viscosity and taste compared to caseinate + whey. Never tried the pure MC. We can get everything from 80-95 % casein. I guess the one you call Micellar Casein is 95%, right?

Ya mean the bulk MC I've used in the past? I don't remember. It's been a while.

TMPs... Good stuff.

[flobot]

Casein ain't bogus but it sucks if you're lactose intolerant.

[Eiselt]

Originally Posted by flobot

Casein ain't bogus but it sucks if you're lactose intolerant.

In my experience TMP and caseinates are tolerated without problems because the lactose content is usually <1%.

[flobot]

I've never tolerated casein well..I'd wake up feeling bloated the nxt morning. It actually feels better when mixed w/ whey

[Universal Rep]

Keep in mind that in general, dairy is allergenic and often, it's not the lactose people have issues with, but rather a specific milk fraction (beta-lactoglobulin).

[amoc6]

Originally Posted by NasD

celc, I supplement with both proteins and use casein exclusively right before bedtime. That's really where I see the value of casein; I don't have to get up in the middle of the night for a whey protein shake essentially. I want to see what others think as well.

yah casien is way more convenient at night