[EctoPower]

This has been debated ad naseum, but here is some real evidence. If this doesn't put the "debate" to bed, then I suppose nothing will.

Creatine Efficacy Headlines At Sports Nutrition Meeting :: News :: Natural and Nutritional Products Industry Center

[johnyq]

This thread has that covered
Creatine Ethyl Ester is inferior

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by johnyq

This thread has that covered
Creatine Ethyl Ester is inferior

SON of a *****!!!

Oh well. Thanks for the heads up.

[dynomite]

i think that is bs. the study was done by a competitor right? i held out on trying CEE for the longest time but finally ordered some cuz my friend said it was great. I had already read that thread so i was even more skeptical than had already been. Yet CEE gave me better results than mono.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by dynomite

i think that is bs. the study was done by a competitor right? i held out on trying CEE for the longest time but finally ordered some cuz my friend said it was great. I had already read that thread so i was even more skeptical than had already been. Yet CEE gave me better results than mono.

Anything more descriptive than "better results?"

Nobody ever seems to provide hard data on this. I always read stuff like "dude, I had INSANE pumps and I wasn't bloated at all," or "I always look soft on mono, but with cee I'm all cut up!" I have yet to hear somebody say that they had no strength gains on mono but their lifts all went up on cee.

I think cee is a scam and I have increased my bench, for example, by 30 pounds in about 4 months using mono. I've also gained 5 pounds and decreased my bf from about 18% to 16.2% as of 4 weeks ago. Granted, I have taken some other supplements along the way, but I took other supps when I tried cee too and did not get these results. That's all the proof I need.

But everybody has their own thing.

Edit: And by the way, NO, this study was not done by a competitor. That's the point. It was an INDEPENDENT scientific study. Read the references.

[ReaperX]

Originally Posted by EctoPower

Anything more descriptive than "better results?"

Nobody ever seems to provide hard data on this. I always read stuff like "dude, I had INSANE pumps and I wasn't bloated at all," or "I always look soft on mono, but with cee I'm all cut up!" I have yet to hear somebody say that they had no strength gains on mono but their lifts all went up on cee.

I think cee is a scam and I have increased my bench, for example, by 30 pounds in about 4 months using mono. I've also gained 5 pounds and decreased my bf from about 18% to 16.2% as of 4 weeks ago. Granted, I have taken some other supplements along the way, but I took other supps when I tried cee too and did not get these results. That's all the proof I need.

But everybody has their own thing.

Edit: And by the way, NO, this study was not done by a competitor. That's the point. It was an INDEPENDENT scientific study. Read the references.

Ecto-

I agree with you. I've tried every muthafu-kin' version of creatine out there under the sun and none work as good an monohydrate. What my beef here is why not more scientific studies on the various creatines ?

Here's how to do an extremely, but effective study on the various creatines. Take a bunch of Fisher rats of the same genetic disposition. Give them all the same meal but leave out any type of red meat or something that might contain any type of form of creatine. Give them different forms of creatine to each groups for awhile and let it soak up. Then slice up the rats and do a muscle biopsy to examine the creatine content within those rats which should tell if it worked or not b/c that would be their only creatine intake.

I also do not buy into the 'I got jacked' statement from people who say stuff works. The majority of these statements are unfortunately the result of a placebo study and mild (and up to severe) retardation unfortunately.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by ReaperX

Ecto-

I agree with you. I've tried every muthafu-kin' version of creatine out there under the sun and none work as good an monohydrate. What my beef here is why not more scientific studies on the various creatines ?

Here's how to do an extremely, but effective study on the various creatines. Take a bunch of Fisher rats of the same genetic disposition. Give them all the same meal but leave out any type of red meat or something that might contain any type of form of creatine. Give them different forms of creatine to each groups for awhile and let it soak up. Then slice up the rats and do a muscle biopsy to examine the creatine content within those rats which should tell if it worked or not b/c that would be their only creatine intake.

I also do not buy into the 'I got jacked' statement from people who say stuff works. The majority of these statements are unfortunately the result of a placebo study and mild (and up to severe) retardation unfortunately.

Reaper -
Yeah there have not been enough studies on the "other" forms of creatine and that would help put the issue to bed. However, creatine mono is the most studied supplement ever and has been proven time and time again to increase strength, among other things. The only reason some companies **** with this is for marketing and hype and because they know the world is full of gullible fools who will buy the latest, greatest thing without thinking about it. There's nothing more boring than creatine monohydrate, so they come up with "new" creatine and people still fall for it. These are the same companies that gave us "creatine serum." Genius.

PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute." So I say in the absence of real science, feel free to try stuff out, but be honest about the results.

You're right on about the placebo effect. I've tried all kinds of stuff and always ask, "Is this really making me bigger/stronger/leaner." Most of the time I either have no noticable improvement or I get a temporary improvement. That's when I decide that whatever I just tried was useless and never buy it again. And I come to that conclusion OFTEN. Some popular examples: CEE, pretty much any thermogenic fat burner, and AAKG. I've tried various brands, concoctions and potencies. All of them were useless for long term, sustainable results.

But people will keep buying them all until the next great thing comes along.

[animalkrack3r]

I've had the best results using Kre-Alkalyn, and stand by it.

[ReaperX]

Originally Posted by EctoPower

Reaper -
Yeah there have not been enough studies on the "other" forms of creatine and that would help put the issue to bed. However, creatine mono is the most studied supplement ever and has been proven time and time again to increase strength, among other things. The only reason some companies **** with this is for marketing and hype and because they know the world is full of gullible fools who will buy the latest, greatest thing without thinking about it. There's nothing more boring than creatine monohydrate, so they come up with "new" creatine and people still fall for it. These are the same companies that gave us "creatine serum." Genius.

PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute." So I say in the absence of real science, feel free to try stuff out, but be honest about the results.

You're right on about the placebo effect. I've tried all kinds of stuff and always ask, "Is this really making me bigger/stronger/leaner." Most of the time I either have no noticable improvement or I get a temporary improvement. That's when I decide that whatever I just tried was useless and never buy it again. And I come to that conclusion OFTEN. Some popular examples: CEE, pretty much any thermogenic fat burner, and AAKG. I've tried various brands, concoctions and potencies. All of them were useless for long term, sustainable results.

But people will keep buying them all until the next great thing comes along.

Ecto-


See that's what I've been trying to say all along here on this board and its funny because noone really seems to give a sh1t yet they glorify themselves in all the expertise they know. Let's look at it like this: Creatine Monohydrate is boring, but hell it works right ? Why in the world would I give money to a supplement company that will give me junk or some useless version of creatine ? I can easily push my money in the toilet and flush it down without too much needed assistance. I think people rely too heavily on supplements and not enough on other mitigating factors. If a supplement dosen't work then your piss out of your money and guess who ends up a winner ? Sure as hell ain't you. Look at the bullsh1t that Muscle-Tech pushes. 400% more effective creatine (Cell-Tech) ? I feel those lies are even worse than what is being peddled with the war in Iraq. If companies believed in their product, prove it buy having a guarantee...which they won't. This is what I've came across as money effective and it is not the most interesting thing but it works, and it works well.


The bread and the butter:

-Creatine monohydrate
-Whey Protein
-Vitamins
-Steroids (if you are into them)
-All on top of a good diet,exercise, and excellent training regiment.

Arnold Schwarznegger didn't build muscle off of Anabolic Pump, CEE, AAKG, Super-Pump and whatever else the f-ck they are peddling out there. Just good ol' fashion dieting and Dbol.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by ReaperX

Ecto-


See that's what I've been trying to say all along here on this board and its funny because noone really seems to give a sh1t yet they glorify themselves in all the expertise they know. Let's look at it like this: Creatine Monohydrate is boring, but hell it works right ? Why in the world would I give money to a supplement company that will give me junk or some useless version of creatine ? I can easily push my money in the toilet and flush it down without too much needed assistance. I think people rely too heavily on supplements and not enough on other mitigating factors. If a supplement dosen't work then your piss out of your money and guess who ends up a winner ? Sure as hell ain't you. Look at the bullsh1t that Muscle-Tech pushes. 400% more effective creatine (Cell-Tech) ? I feel those lies are even worse than what is being peddled with the war in Iraq. If companies believed in their product, prove it buy having a guarantee...which they won't. This is what I've came across as money effective and it is not the most interesting thing but it works, and it works well.


The bread and the butter:

-Creatine monohydrate
-Whey Protein
-Vitamins
-Steroids (if you are into them)
-All on top of a good diet,exercise, and excellent training regiment.

Arnold Schwarznegger didn't build muscle off of Anabolic Pump, CEE, AAKG, Super-Pump and whatever else the f-ck they are peddling out there. Just good ol' fashion dieting and Dbol.

That's about right. Now, I will say that other things can help and there are some things that are just going to make you a little healthier, not necessarily bigger/stronger. For instance, I take fish oil supps because my wife hates fish and I need the EPA/DHA in the oil. I can't get it through diet, so there you go. I'm currently taking SuperCissus, which I tried on a recommendation from Celc5, and found it helped heal a sore knee and has also mitigated some of the pain I've had from a herniated disc. It happened to work pretty well for what I needed, so I may use it again in the future, if necessary. I got some NAC to go along with my Propadrol pulse (which was a total failure, btw) and found that it seems to be helping improve muscle recovery.

So there have been some nice improvements and additions to the old Arnold standby (you should copywrite "dieting and dbol" - that's funny), but they're all peripheral. I could pretty much scrap everything except whey, mono, bcaa, fish oil, and multi-v. and I would do just fine.

Don't even get me started on muscle tech. Or BSN. They should just drop the "N" and call it what it is... Does anybody out there believe that Ronnie Coleman gets huge for the Mr. O on BSN products? Really?

I really like AST-SS. Check out their website. No BS there. Lot's of great articles, breaking research, etc. I don't buy it all, but they're the most reputable company I've found. If I could afford their meal replacement shake, I'd make it two of my meals everyday. It's the perfect meal. Expensive though.

[ReaperX]

I take plenty of supplements for health too including fish oil. I've heard about cissus, but I've never actually tried it and it is something that I'll look into. My joints take a beating and glucosamine can only do so much so hopefully cissus will help as well.

In reguard to Kre-alkalyn, as far as my understanding goes the ONLY study that CONFIRMS that it does work is by EFX which is the one that is selling it (go figure). However ! there are other studies such as the one above that shows it DOES NOT WORK. I'd like to see an independent study that proves that CEE or Kre-Alkalyn does work, until then I doubt it.

I actually tried taking as high as 12g of Kre-Alkalyn which is WELL PAST their recommend dose, and still at the same time it did not give me what creatine monohydrate did at 10g.

With the aspect of pulsing, that is also something that I really don't buy into or worth entertaining. Yeah the idea of it really appeals to people, but most ppl who pulse get a SERM anyway so what's the point ? I assumed when the compound was researched and manufactured it was not under the presumption of a 'pulse usage'....so in that respect I think that any type of compound should still be used at a steady rate till the end then SERMs used accordingly.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by ReaperX

I take plenty of supplements for health too including fish oil. I've heard about cissus, but I've never actually tried it and it is something that I'll look into. My joints take a beating and glucosamine can only do so much so hopefully cissus will help as well.

In reguard to Kre-alkalyn, as far as my understanding goes the ONLY study that CONFIRMS that it does work is by EFX which is the one that is selling it (go figure). However ! there are other studies such as the one above that shows it DOES NOT WORK. I'd like to see an independent study that proves that CEE or Kre-Alkalyn does work, until then I doubt it.

I actually tried taking as high as 12g of Kre-Alkalyn which is WELL PAST their recommend dose, and still at the same time it did not give me what creatine monohydrate did at 10g.

With the aspect of pulsing, that is also something that I really don't buy into or worth entertaining. Yeah the idea of it really appeals to people, but most ppl who pulse get a SERM anyway so what's the point ? I assumed when the compound was researched and manufactured it was not under the presumption of a 'pulse usage'....so in that respect I think that any type of compound should still be used at a steady rate till the end then SERMs used accordingly.

Glucosamine was another one I tried for the same reason. I lift at about 90% or more of my 1 rep max all the time, so my joints get killed. Glucosamine did a decent job at first, but the benefits quickly faded. I've been using SuperCissus and I can recommend it with little reservation. The only thing is that there is an analgesic effect with cissus and I don't know if that is just covering up the pain. After I finish the bottle, I'm going to go without it for a couple of weeks and make sure. I'd say it's worth a try. Not too expensive. The funny thing is, on the label they have a "therapeutic" dose and a "anabolic dose" which is at least double. Really? Anabolic cissus? I smell BS! Haha. Even when they make a useful product, they try some other way to hype it and get you to buy more!

I tried the pulse method for a few reasons. First, I was a steroid virgin and I wanted an ultra safe way to test the waters. Second, the concept does actually make some sense to me, from a physiological standpoint. Third, I did not want to blow up huge in four weeks. I just wanted a nice, steady gain so that I could hide my steroid usage from my wife. Divorce is not cool! Fourth, I did not want to do anything illegal. I'm pretty sure obtaining a SERM without a valid prescription is illegal. I was not willing to risk that.

Anyway, I had to terminate the pulse after 1 week and go right to my modified, SERM-less PCT. I learned that my body is likely hypersensitive to steroids because I actually only took 4 total doses. Yet I had increased strength pretty much on day one, major lethargy by day two, and a headache that lasted 5 days from day two. My blood pressure jumped up by 20-30 points after just a couple days on a pulse of what was supposedly a "mild" compound. Freaked me out. In hindsight, I probably should have just started with 30mg in the first week to see how I responded. Still, the recommended dose of Propadrol is 30mg-60mg. I was in that range by taking 60mg, but my body couldn't handle it.

So, my quick take on pulsing is that the drug will work in that way, especially for a noob and if you can control the estrogen and cortisol between doses and post-cycle, you can probably keep your gains without a SERM. But if you have no problem with obtaining a SERM and gaining big over 4 weeks, then go with a regular cycle.

For me, I'm probably done with PH/PH, etc.

This has been a good discussion man, thanks for the input. Reps for you!

[ReaperX]

Originally Posted by EctoPower

Glucosamine was another one I tried for the same reason. I lift at about 90% or more of my 1 rep max all the time, so my joints get killed. Glucosamine did a decent job at first, but the benefits quickly faded. I've been using SuperCissus and I can recommend it with little reservation. The only thing is that there is an analgesic effect with cissus and I don't know if that is just covering up the pain. After I finish the bottle, I'm going to go without it for a couple of weeks and make sure. I'd say it's worth a try. Not too expensive. The funny thing is, on the label they have a "therapeutic" dose and a "anabolic dose" which is at least double. Really? Anabolic cissus? I smell BS! Haha. Even when they make a useful product, they try some other way to hype it and get you to buy more!

I tried the pulse method for a few reasons. First, I was a steroid virgin and I wanted an ultra safe way to test the waters. Second, the concept does actually make some sense to me, from a physiological standpoint. Third, I did not want to blow up huge in four weeks. I just wanted a nice, steady gain so that I could hide my steroid usage from my wife. Divorce is not cool! Fourth, I did not want to do anything illegal. I'm pretty sure obtaining a SERM without a valid prescription is illegal. I was not willing to risk that.

Anyway, I had to terminate the pulse after 1 week and go right to my modified, SERM-less post cycle therapy. I learned that my body is likely hypersensitive to steroids because I actually only took 4 total doses. Yet I had increased strength pretty much on day one, major lethargy by day two, and a headache that lasted 5 days from day two. My blood pressure jumped up by 20-30 points after just a couple days on a pulse of what was supposedly a "mild" compound. Freaked me out. In hindsight, I probably should have just started with 30mg in the first week to see how I responded. Still, the recommended dose of Propadrol is 30mg-60mg. I was in that range by taking 60mg, but my body couldn't handle it.

So, my quick take on pulsing is that the drug will work in that way, especially for a noob and if you can control the estrogen and cortisol between doses and post-cycle, you can probably keep your gains without a SERM. But if you have no problem with obtaining a SERM and gaining big over 4 weeks, then go with a regular cycle.

For me, I'm probably done with PH/PH, etc.

This has been a good discussion man, thanks for the input. Reps for you!

Just curious but what did you run as post cycle therapy ? Novadex XT and Chrysin ? SERMs you flirt with a legality issue which can be a b-tch.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by ReaperX

Just curious but what did you run as post cycle therapy ? Novadex XT and Chrysin ? SERMs you flirt with a legality issue which can be a b-tch.

6-oxo and DHEA. Provides AI, increase in free test, and cort control. I'm about to start ramping down the 6-oxo over the next couple weeks. This was recommended to prevent estrogen rebound after coming off the AI. It's worked really well so far. Strength is up, I've gained a couple pounds in the last 2 weeks as I got to higher doses, and, if my raging libido is any indication, my free T is up too. I'd actually recommend giving this little stack a try on its own, just for sh*ts and giggles. DHEA is cheap and you'll only need 1 bottle of 6-oxo (2 at most, if you wanted to run it longer). I ramped pretty quickly up to 400mg ED of the 6-oxo and 200mg of DHEA. Then I peaked today at 500mg of 6-oxo and tomorrow I'll drop back down, like this:

2 days 400mg 6-oxo, 200mg DHEA
2 days 300mg 6-oxo, 200mg DHEA
4 days 200mg 6-oxo, 150mg DHEA
5 days 100mg 6-oxo, 100mg DHEA

Then I'll continue with 50mg DHEA for a couple days to make sure cort stays down as my body re-adjusts. This is another one where I am eager to see if the effects I've noticed are temporary or permanent. I'm eager to see if my BF% improved too.