[Hbs6]

PLEASE don't delete this thread right away. Lets ee if we can discuss this article. Not religion, not even evolution, none of that. Nobody cares what each of us believe in so just understand nobody can win that argument and nobody is going to change anybody's mind.

To article...i really liked it, had some cool ideas and had some obvious stuff in there that I am sure already a lot of knew. But one thing struck me that I thought was very interesting. When the chemist said:

CK: The $18-billion dollar dietary supplement industry in America includes off-the-shelf prohormones. Any comments?

JT: Prohormones are a joke. Prohormones are a slightly altered form of testosterone or other true designer steroids; i.e, one or more bonds are changed. The manufacturers suggest that, once inside the body, these compounds will convert to active testosterone. Although, theoretically possible, the human body doesn't follow this agenda. In fact, far less than one percent of the ingested dose actually converts to testosterone. And this number is for the "best" prohormones such as the one Mark McGuire was using. Scientists are skeptical that such a low increase in serum testosterone levels would cause any increase in muscle size or performance. Bottom line is they don't work. However, I am speaking about the anabolic properties. The reason some prohormones are being banned (with others soon to follow) is because they still have negative side effects This is because the compound is similar enough in chemical structure to testosterone that they bind to both the androgen and aromatase receptors causing the side effects typical of testosterone: acne, balding, aggression, bloating, etc. Prohormones essentially give you all the negative effects with none of the anabolic effects — all for a price comparable to that of true steroids. The reporter who broke the story should have looked deeper inside McGuire's locker.


Any thoughts? And PLEASE keep this to the article. Otherwise I am sure this will just get locked again...we can have a seperate thread for neverending arguments

Edit: This is discussion of the DESIGNER STEROIDS: SPEEDING EVOLUTION (AND FILLING STADIUM SEATS for those who are confused.

[Hbs6]

wow nobody thought that statement was interesting?

[ecu19]

Originally Posted by Hbs6

wow nobody thought that statement was interesting?

I thought it was, I just didn't want to post in the other thread, as it was getting worse than derailed.

[beebab]

there has to be some variable. i did a cycle of m-drol and epi back in december and my bench literally shot up 50 lbs in two weeks. no real side effects either other than lethargy. my diet didn't change from how it was pre-cycle. so something has to work about them.

[pmiller383]

Originally Posted by beebab

there has to be some variable. i did a cycle of m-drol and epi back in december and my bench literally shot up 50 lbs in two weeks. no real side effects either other than lethargy. my diet didn't change from how it was pre-cycle. so something has to work about them.

I don't have personal experience with the designers out now, but it seems to many people have good results to call them just placebo's.

[B5150]

Originally Posted by Hbs6

JT: Prohormones are a joke. Prohormones are a slightly altered form of testosterone or other true designer steroids; i.e, one or more bonds are changed. The manufacturers suggest that, once inside the body, these compounds will convert to active testosterone.

I don't know what you guys are or are not taking but most stuff these days are active steroids all on their own without the need for conversion. I believe that M-drol is a knock off of Superdrol which is Methasteron which is an active steroid.

Anyone that makes reference to Mark McGuire and andro cannot be taken too seriously. Not to mention that this "interview" sounds like it is very old.

[Zero V]

They are going to base it off some lab tests. But no way all these products who people getting such great results are having the same effect as a sugar pill. I know for a fact if a pulse cycle epi for 8 weeks it WILL have an effect on me, not maybe....If I use it normally, it will have an even more profound effect on me.

Has anyone looked into the new supplementation being experimented where it actually attacks part of the DNA and either inhibits or destroys the gene that limits muscle growth?

I will look up the article about it so I can get what its called and find some articles on the net. Its what I guess is supposed to be the next level up from steroids. Kinda relates to the whole steroid phenomena.

I got the link to the article still, I left it up. Too good of a read.

DESIGNER STEROIDS: SPEEDING EVOLUTION (AND FILLING STADIUM SEATS)

[Hbs6]

Originally Posted by B5150

I don't know what you guys are or are not taking but most stuff these days are active steroids all on their own without the need for conversion. I believe that M-drol is a knock off of Superdrol which is Methasteron which is an active steroid.

Anyone that makes reference to Mark McGuire and andro cannot be taken too seriously. Not to mention that this "interview" sounds like it is very old.

That was what I thought. When I read that I had to just think, how credible is this guy now? I am not doubting his genius because I barely passed organic and biochem and if you can see molecules how he can see them then of course he is smart. But a weird thing to say nonetheless.

[B5150]

I don't know jack about organic or biochem. I hate to break it to you but his comments are not genius. I don't even know who he is but it is common knowledge that Androstenedione is ridiculous.

Androstenedione (4-androsten-3, 17-dione) has a target conversion to testosterone of about 6% and that is after an oral availability (oral absorption) of probably less than 10%.

So taking 1g of Androstenedione will result in 100mg being absorbed and them 6mg converting to testosterone. I am no genius either. Prohormones, especially Androstenedione, 19-Norandrostenedione, Androstenediol and Norandrostenediol (btw - the diols have a target conversion of about a whopping 15% after absorption) are indeed junk. They do have undecipherable anabolic properties inherent but a tremendous amount of aromatization when dosed high enough to get sufficient target hormone levels.

What you have on the market today are not prohormones. They are active steroids and most consumers have no idea the difference or what they are taking for that matter.

[atjnutrition2]

I'm in on this one just for the information as I've always been a bit skeptical of over the counter testosterone boosters or whatever you may call them.

[Hbs6]

Originally Posted by B5150

I don't know jack about organic or biochem. I hate to break it to you but his comments are not genius. I don't even know who he is but it is common knowledge that Androstenedione is ridiculous.

Androstenedione (4-androsten-3, 17-dione) has a target conversion to testosterone of about 6% and that is after an oral availability (oral absorption) of probably less than 10%.

So taking 1g of Androstenedione will result in 100mg being absorbed and them 6mg converting to testosterone. I am no genius either. Prohormones, especially Androstenedione, 19-Norandrostenedione, Androstenediol and Norandrostenediol (btw - the diols have a target conversion of about a whopping 15% after absorption) are indeed junk. They do have undecipherable anabolic properties inherent but a tremendous amount of aromatization when dosed high enough to get sufficient target hormone levels.

What you have on the market today are not prohormones. They are active steroids and most consumers have no idea the difference or what they are taking for that matter.

I wasnt saying what that what he was saying was correct, but if his credentials are true he is indeed a genius. But yeah, thats what I thought, the stuff OTC right it is the real deal just legal for the time being.

[badfish51581]

If you read the entire article it seems pretty obvious to me he was referring to Androstenedione - which is well known for not being too effective - especially by referencing Mark McGuire. He was knowledgable enough about legit steroids to give him some credibility.

If he wasn't, then he definitely needs to check out what are currently stocked on shelves because SD and PP are legit.

Although, he seemed to downplay Tren - which I think most people would consider to be the Holy Grail when combined with test.

[suncloud]

Originally Posted by Hbs6

JT: Prohormones are a joke. Prohormones are a slightly altered form of testosterone or other true designer steroids; i.e, one or more bonds are changed. The manufacturers suggest that, once inside the body, these compounds will convert to active testosterone. Although, theoretically possible, the human body doesn't follow this agenda. In fact, far less than one percent of the ingested dose actually converts to testosterone. And this number is for the "best" prohormones such as the one Mark McGuire was using. Scientists are skeptical that such a low increase in serum testosterone levels would cause any increase in muscle size or performance. Bottom line is they don't work. However, I am speaking about the anabolic properties. The reason some prohormones are being banned (with others soon to follow) is because they still have negative side effects This is because the compound is similar enough in chemical structure to testosterone that they bind to both the androgen and aromatase receptors causing the side effects typical of testosterone: acne, balding, aggression, bloating, etc. Prohormones essentially give you all the negative effects with none of the anabolic effects — all for a price comparable to that of true steroids. The reporter who broke the story should have looked deeper inside McGuire's locker.

and tren got banned and became a class III, while the medical community hailed it as the first true SARM (BALCO investigations, May 2008). this is a classic example of the media and a bunch of schmucks trying to scare everyone away from anything that will build muscle. multiple ideas and studies have come out in the last year which all state that anything that increases testosterone will cure people of diabetes (type 2 at least). so the things with little sides (bold, tren) get banned, because they will help diabetics overcome their problems. meanwhile, stuff they can't take (because of preexisting conditions like bad lipid profiles etc) such as SD, Phera plex, etc stay on the market. sure SD and Phera have worse sides, who cares - so long as Merc can keep selling lipitor to people in need.

Health News on Yahoo! Health
Le Magazine, December 2007 - Cover: The Textbook Of Bio-Identical Hormones
Testosterone’S Overlooked Role In The Treatment Of Diabetes In Men

they spent years telling us how bad steroids were. nasty side effects, very little gains, etc. now that everyone knows they're full of SH1T, they focus on the PH battle, because they already lost the steroid one. remember that a society that is docile, and needs the help of pharmacies in order to run their daily life, is a society that is easily controlled.

take oxycontin as another example. perdue pharmacy managed to make it tamper proof in the late 1990's. then they realized they couldn't get as many sales as they needed (because addicts couldn't abuse it), so they changed the time release to create the drug epidemic that we have today. meanwhile, there's nobody telling them to make it the way they used to, and perdue couldn't care less. meanwhile we give them billions of dollars to spend on altering federal policies in their favor.

how can we honestly still believe that pharmacies or the chemists that work for them have the american people's interest at heart? if they did, they would have asked for the government to subsidize their research on the HPV vaccine, or the HIV drug coctail. maybe they'd lower the cost if it would save lives. i wish i still had the link for what i read, but i distinctly remember reading that the cost of medication for obscure diseases has risen by, on average, 500% in the last two years. they claim it was because "manufacturing costs went up". here's the quote:

Many of the drugs are used to treat rare ailments, such as Ovation Pharmaceuticals' Cosmegen, which is prescribed exclusively to children with rare kidney cancer. The company raised the drugs' price more than 3,400 percent in 2006 to $593.75 from just $16.79.
link is: Drug companies increase cost of medications at a faster rate

i'm awaiting the "negged" firestorm about to come my way.

[strategicmove]

Originally Posted by Zero V

...I got the link to the article still, I left it up. Too good of a read.

DESIGNER STEROIDS: SPEEDING EVOLUTION (AND FILLING STADIUM SEATS)

Interesting link!