[neoborn]

Very interesting article on steroids etc.

DESIGNER STEROIDS: SPEEDING EVOLUTION (AND FILLING STADIUM SEATS)

Originally Posted by sample quote

JT : The isolation of the male hormone testosterone dates to 1935 followed by the development of synthetic variants in the late 1930s. That said, it exploded synthetically with the work of Russell Marker who had studied the endocrine system and was looking for ways to develop a birth control agent. Marker knew about estrogen and those compounds related to it. He knew what you needed to make birth control agents, but where would you isolate those from? For some reason, he went to Mexico where a plant, the Mexican yam, yielded a compound (diosgenin) that was closely related to estrogen. With six easy chemical changes that any Masters-level chemist could perform, you get progesterone which is a steroid. Several steps away from that is pure estrogen. The compound was cheap to make and the Mexican yam was plentiful thoughout Mexico — whereas to make a small amount of synthetic testosterone, you had to kill so many bulls that it was inhumane. There are also regulations governing the killing of bulls. Russell Marker's work with the Mexican yam for a birth control agent marked the beginning of the explosion of synthetic steroid production. Why? Because while Marker was only concerned with developing a birth control agent, endocrinologists and other scientists realized that Marker had found an efficient and cost effective route to progesterone, the parent compound of testosterone and to all anabolic steroids. The same is true in your body: from cholesterol you have to run it to progesterone before you make anything else. Progesterone is a natural branching point for other steroids and that is why Marker's work was so huge for endocrinologists and chemists. Today many companies that make pure anabolic steroids still use the Mexican yam. Now that we know the recipe, it doesn't take a Ph.D. chemist to do it. It's a simple conversion from the diosgenin of the Mexican yam to whatever steroid you want to make. The 4-ring carbon chain, an otherwise complex structure to make chemically, is already in place for you in nature. You just have to mess around with things to change that. And this is where synthetic chemistry comes in.

[Zero V]

Interesting....so everyone is shooting up with Mexican Yam juice.... except evolution is an unproven theory which I see as a false way to explain unexplainable history.

Very good info in this though.

[neoborn]

I don't really buy into the whole "evolution explains everything" and all that "millions of years' and "big bang theory" stuff but evolution surely does exist as we learn and our genetics are reprogrammed for future generations / offspring

This is also posted over at bb.com in the supplement misc section where they are discussing this also.

[Zero V]

No matter the alterations you make to a humans genepool, it will be a human. Just as a dog technically can "evolve" horizontally. It can change breeds over the generations and specific breeding can create desired dog breeds. But none the less, it is, a dog. Always will be no matter what gene you alter or how much radiation some crazy scientist may want to pump into it. Humans will always be the same. An increase in muscle size wont change us that much, just make more people on the same level as professional builders. And besides, all mutations to our genes turn into degeneration down the line, and that is why we have cancer and most of our diseases. If DNA functions in any way but natural, it will be removed from the circle by nature....

[ecu19]

Originally Posted by Zero V

except evolution is an unproven theory which I see as a false way to explain unexplainable history.

oh brother, i'm not even TOUCHING this thread

[Zero V]

Originally Posted by ecu19

oh brother, i'm not even TOUCHING this thread

good

[Red Dog]

Originally Posted by ecu19

oh brother, i'm not even TOUCHING this thread

hey, at least he's not suggesting a religious explanation to unexplainable history.

[Zero V]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

hey, at least he's not suggesting a religious explanation to unexplainable history.

'I did resist that. I am offering the common sense side I believe.

But truthfully if you want to believe your great great grandpa is a apes great great grandkid go ahead. I prefer to view myself as something more lol.

[GreenSquats]

My friend's dad is a professor and he can prove that evolution exists. As a matter of fact, he's actually made things evolve before. You know, like single celled organisms.

Sure, evolution takes a long time. Millions and millions of years. Why? Because evolution is all about accidents. Think about it. Not all humans are born the same. i.e. Jay Cutler and some skinny guy. Some are born even more different than that, i.e. someone with no legs, or an extra toe. Accidents. Anyway, in the wild, it's all about survival of the fittest. The alterations that happened by accident can make an animal or human stronger or weaker. Well, in the wild only the strongest survive. So, through millions and millions of years of accidents, yes, I am telling you that things can evolve.

[Zero V]

Originally Posted by GreenSquats

My friend's dad is a professor and he can prove that evolution exists. As a matter of fact, he's actually made things evolve before. You know, like single celled organisms.

Sure, evolution takes a long time. Millions and millions of years. Why? Because evolution is all about accidents. Think about it. Not all humans are born the same. i.e. Jay Cutler and some skinny guy. Some are born even more different than that, i.e. someone with no legs, or an extra toe. Accidents. Anyway, in the wild, it's all about survival of the fittest. The alterations that happened by accident can make an animal or human stronger or weaker. Well, in the wild only the strongest survive. So, through millions and millions of years of accidents, yes, I am telling you that things can evolve.

humans today are much, MUCH weaker than they used to be....it goes opposite of survival of the fittest....

[BigCasino]

Originally Posted by Zero V

humans today are much, MUCH weaker than they used to be....it goes opposite of survival of the fittest....

So I was doing some recreational researching on Neanderthals the other day, was curious about their theorized levels of strength, and I came across a Christian website that said that same thing you are saying here. It claimed people used to live for 900 years, 600 years, etc before The Flood, and that the Neanderthal was not an ape, but rather what humans probably looked like before the Flood, more robust and hardy, before they degenerated.

I hadn't heard any of that before, so it was interesting to read, but the fact of the matter is all of the Neanderthal bones / fossils we have, when we use our science and knowledge to date them, show that these people often didn't live beyond the age of 30.

[Zero V]

Originally Posted by BigCasino

So I was doing some recreational researching on Neanderthals the other day, was curious about their theorized levels of strength, and I came across a Christian website that said that same thing you are saying here. It claimed people used to live for 900 years, 600 years, etc before The Flood, and that the Neanderthal was not an ape, but rather what humans probably looked like before the Flood, more robust and hardy, before they degenerated.

I hadn't heard any of that before, so it was interesting to read, but the fact of the matter is all of the Neanderthal bones / fossils we have, when we use our science and knowledge to date them, show that these people often didn't live beyond the age of 30.

Well for starters if evolution was real, where is the "missing link" between apes and humans and a rhino and a dog or whatever some scientist will say it came from. They do not exist.

Of all the people who lived over the years, there should be millions of these bones of the "missing link".....never will find it, isnt there to find. Splitting a single celled organism is mutation, not evolution.....Cancer grows rapidly and changed how cells are, so if you have cancer your evolving?

Not to mention how did organisms come to be period? Oh yeah, some ash mixed with a volcanoes fart and it flew into a cloud of methane gas.......

And our dating methods cant be proven to be accurate, because we have no idea how carbon reacts over time, how it escapes after degeneration of bones. So 100 year old bones can test to be 2500 years old if nature works just right.

Check this.

-a freshly killed seal dated by C-14 showed that it had died 1 300 years ago (American Journal, Volume 6)

-living mollusc shells were dated at up to 2300 years old (Science, Volume 14)

-living snail shells showed that they had died 27 000 years ago (Science, Volume 224)

These are just a few errors. They are not meant to end the debate. But once one has considered everything else, it certainly makes it harder to believe that the C-14 dating method is a proven, trustworthy scientific method.

Scientists cant really prove anything other than if you push a ball of lesser mass it will move away from ya.

check some more

-coal from Russia from the Pennsylvanian era supposedly 300 million years old, was dated only 1680 years (Radiocarbon, Volume 8)

-natural gas from Mississippi and Alabama should have been 50 to 135 million years old yet C-14 dated it 30 000 and 34 000 years old respectively (also Volume 8)

-bones from a saber-tooth tiger, found in the LaBrea tar pits (near Los Angeles) were supposedly between 100 000 and 1 000 000 years old, were given a date of 28 000 years (Radiocarbon, Volume 10)


science is proving that....the earth isn't all that old.......evolution is actually almost ready to be thrown out by the scientific society, give it about 10 years....for their minds to "evolve" lol

You do know the populace used to believe the earth was flat right? Same deal with evolution, just give it time.

Carbon dating and all other "proofs" that support the idea of evolution through supporting the earths age has to be constantly"calibrated" which means constantly altered so as to produce the wanted results. Like an unstable person, its not going to tell you the truth, and will only confuse you.


Jeez keeping religion out of this is hard, the peeps from that old thread would be proud of me

[BigCasino]

Originally Posted by Zero V

Well for starters if evolution was real, where is the "missing link" between apes and humans and a rhino and a dog or whatever some scientist will say it came from. They do not exist.

You mean where are they TODAY? Or do you mean you do not believe in the biological history of ancesteral species like Australopithecus? You are asking if they once existed, then why are they not still around? Basically, evolution says that apes and humans had a common ancestor, and at one point apes stopped evolving and another derivative branched off this branch kept progressing until it became us. What happened to those that were made along this path? They either evolved into us or they were evolutionary dead ends and went extinct.

The rhino and the dog, well that is a less concise path / explanation, but let's say they both had a mammal ancestor they come from. They both have four legs, two eyes, a nose, tails, etc......... wouldn't it make sense that they both inherited these attributes from something?

Originally Posted by Zero V

Of all the people who lived over the years, there should be millions of these bones of the "missing link".....never will find it, isnt there to find. Splitting a single celled organism is mutation, not evolution.....Cancer grows rapidly and changed how cells are, so if you have cancer your evolving?

Not to mention how did organisms come to be period? Oh yeah, some ash mixed with a volcanoes fart and it flew into a cloud of methane gas.......

Yeah, the origins of life has always been less convincing to me. It seems so horribly unplanned and accidental, and as humans we tend to want to have a sense of self importance, so the idea that we are an accident is frightening to us. I don't believe in a Garden of Eden, but at the same time I share your skepticism for our methane gas origins.

How do you explain all the fossils we have found though? The fossils of those ancestral species that get progressively similar to what we look like today. Seems like too much evidence to suggest we just all coincidentally looked similar but were not related?

I respect your faith in your views and thank you for sharing them with me. I'm really just interested in talking about it, and I am not too familiar with the Christian perspective of modern science, and I enjoy learning new things.