best ph for cutting recomp
- 07-04-2008, 02:55 PM
- 07-04-2008, 04:18 PM
07-04-2008, 04:23 PM
07-04-2008, 04:28 PM
hmm 11 oxo by its self from logs ive read its good but not the best choice ? Do you even need pct for 11 oxo
07-04-2008, 05:17 PM
07-04-2008, 05:30 PM
With 11-oxo you can run it @ 6+ per day on a cut for 6-8 weeks. You can keep your strength and possibly add a little as well as keep your muscle while losing fat.
With Hdrol and Havoc/EPI you can expect to gain strength and likely muscle while losing fat while on a cut/recomp depending on your diet.
Hdrol and Havoc/EPI are both great for a recomp with the main difference is Havoc/EPI are stronger.
07-04-2008, 07:05 PM
ok guys thanks alot for all your advice i will use 11 oxo with h drol or epi which one would be best for the fat loss epi or h drol i know alot use epi for culling
07-05-2008, 12:11 AM
07-05-2008, 09:10 AM
07-05-2008, 09:34 AM
Weeks 1-4 Havoc 40/40/40/40
Weeks 5-10 11-oxo 8 per day
Weeks 11-14 PCT (Nolva 40/30/20/10)
The above is my planned cycle with a lot of support supps. I'm currently on week 2 of the Havoc and will post a picture log of it once completed.
Using 11-oxo this way is supposed to allow you to keep the gains from Havoc while having extended time to cut and even slightly recover as 11-oxo is less suppressive than Havoc making PCT easier for keeping gains as well.
07-06-2008, 04:16 AM
07-06-2008, 08:09 AM
Could clen be worked into this cycle, and if so, what would the recommended addition of clen into the cycle look like?
07-06-2008, 10:37 AM
07-06-2008, 01:45 PM
your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better
07-09-2008, 04:29 PM
07-09-2008, 05:07 PM
methyl masterdrol v2
^^^seems like it would make make a great cutting stack. i have read a lot of really good things about mmv2 recently in terms of cutting ph's.
VO2 Max = 58.75mL/kg/min
~If Difficult takes a day, impossible takes a week~
Learn Teach Lead
07-10-2008, 12:10 AM
07-10-2008, 07:15 AM
Yeah I saw that too on the ergo site which makes sense, but then again 11-oxo is so mild I wonder how much of your gains it would allow you to keep if you're running a harsher compound that WILL shut you down. From what I've researched, I couldn't imagine getting shutdown and then having another 4-8 weeks of a mild anabolic that will keep you shutdown but then again not strong enough to really ellicit any intense effects in the gym. I don't know if I'm making sense, but this is a good subject to discuss. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe someone could start another thread on that particular subject. Just a thought......
07-10-2008, 08:27 AM
additionally, once you have already put on a lot of muscle with the stronger compound, diminishing returns set in and it takes more of the strong compound to get smaller gains...now switch to a weaker compound in addition to this and it's effect will be reduced.
this argument all points to running the 11oxo/cut first, and when it is less effective at the end increase the steroid strength with havoc/epi and bulk
07-10-2008, 09:01 AM
07-10-2008, 11:32 AM
07-10-2008, 12:06 PM
07-10-2008, 12:53 PM
I think we're getting off track here, this thread is about cutting.
I understand your angle on using 11-oxo before Havoc in a bridge. You're saying to get any gains from it you need to run it first. Remember though, we're talking about a cut here so the person will be calorie deficient which will greatly reduce the chance of any significant gains on 11-oxo (minus noob gains). The point of 11-oxo here is to maintain muscle and strength.
Now Havoc on the other hand is stronger and for many of us can add muscle and strength while cutting for a good recomp. However Havoc is recommended to be run for no more than 4 weeks so that's why the bridge is nice with 11-oxo to extend the time you can cut.
So, let's break it down using the beneficial theories from this thread of using Havoc before or after 11-oxo:
(Weeks 1-6) 11-oxo
(Weeks 7-10) Havoc
-(THEORY) 11-oxo from a fresh start and not being shut down will allow for easier gains while on it.
(Weeks 1-4) Havoc
(Weeks 5-10) 11-oxo
-(THEORY) 11-oxo will maintain muscle and strength gains from Havoc solidifying them further (making them easier to keep through PCT and after)
-(THEORY) 11-oxo will bring your body back slightly to a less shut down state making PCT easier on you
-(FACT) If using Nolva for PCT your liver gets a break between Havoc and Nolva which are both liver toxic
-(FACT) Since 11-oxo is run anywhere from 4-8 weeks, you can add or remove 1-2 weeks at the end as needed depending on where you are in relation to your bodyfat goals @ the end.
Am I missing anything? IMO the choice is clear when talking about a cutting/recomp cycle.
07-10-2008, 02:02 PM
Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.
I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.
Give liver a break? Huh? The standard is 4 week methyl, 4 week PCT never heard of anybody giving there liver a "break" before going into PCT. Anybody worried about liver shouldn't be using methyls or prescription PCT products.
Plus I beleive the whole point of Patrick Arnold suggesting the 11-oxo "after" the new 1-AD is because its not supposed to shut you down hard. Its supposed to be mildly suppressive as reports have it. Guess we won't know until the Logs start coming in abundance.
This is REALLY a great topic to be discussed and debated. Thanks for your input Reseg.
07-10-2008, 02:47 PM
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