best ph for cutting recomp

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    MMV2 is a GREAT recomp product. I stacked it with Epi/Havoc and it worked amazing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by milwood View Post
    I'd run either h-drol or havoc stacked with furazadrol and shine the 11-oxo altogether probably.

    I kinda like the 11-oxo with a havoc pulse idea, however...
    I've ran H-Drol stacked with Fura before and all I can say about that stack is............................ ......AWESOME!!!

    I'm giving 11-oxo a shot because it's a nonmethyl and I can run it longer. And its alot cheaper than Fura.LOL!!!! Plus I wanted to try something new.
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    Quote Originally Posted by krogtaar View Post
    usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

    your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better
    What I recommend is opposite, read below:

    Quote Originally Posted by T H E O R E M View Post
    if i understand correctly the ERGO site implys that the 11-oxo acts as a BRIDGE, blocking CORT and helping keep muscle from cycle to QUOTE "help solidify gains" so id guess they are saying this would allow some level of recovery as well almost like a mini PCT. but then again im just plain guessing lol
    A quasi/mini PCT is right; it helps recovery a little while making the PCT easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob561 View Post
    what about 11oxo for 6-8 weeks with a havoc pulse. this is something i have considered for myself
    I think pulsing a hormone is the retarded thing ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by purepower10 View Post
    I don't believe that if you're "shutdown" that adding more outside androgens will make you "less shutdown."
    How doesn't it? You're using a more mild compound, i.e. something that causes zero to low shutdown when taken solo.

    Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.
    It allows your T to raise if you're shutdown from Havoc, which is the goal of PCT, so it's kind of like Theorm said.

    I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.
    I feel that you should be at recomp to quasi-bulking when going into PCT for any PH/DS/AAS run.

    Give liver a break? Huh? The standard is 4 week methyl, 4 week PCT never heard of anybody giving there liver a "break" before going into PCT. Anybody worried about liver shouldn't be using methyls or prescription PCT products.
    Though good rationale, it is true by saying I'm going to use a liver toxic drug for four weeks, then give it a four week break, and again back on a liver toxic drug for another four weeks. It certainly is A LOT better rationale that reseg is proposing by saying that than run eight weeks straight of liver toxic drug(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by purepower10 View Post
    The faster you get Natural Test started again, I beleive the more gains you keep. Maybe that just me.
    This is pretty much why we suggest using an 11-OXO bridge into PCT, at least as I see it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by purepower10 View Post
    I've ran H-Drol stacked with Fura before and all I can say about that stack is............................ ......AWESOME!!!
    How did you dose Fdrol and what's your bodyweight? From my experience and what I used to recommend when working for Axis was to dose about 300mg for a 200lb person, but also depending on history. If I were to run it again, I would dose it at 400-500mg (I'm 230ish).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post

    How doesn't it? You're using a more mild compound, i.e. something that causes zero to low shutdown when taken solo.).
    But you're already shutdown. I can see the hormone being mild and causing zero to low shutdown when taken solo. But you're already shutdown and I don't feel IMO that adding more outside adrogens helps or makes you "less" shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post

    It allows your T to raise if you're shutdown from Havoc, which is the goal of PCT, so it's kind of like Theorm said.
    How does T raise if you're shutdown and still taking androgens?



    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    Though good rationale, it is true by saying I'm going to use a liver toxic drug for four weeks, then give it a four week break, and again back on a liver toxic drug for another four weeks. It certainly is A LOT better rationale that reseg is proposing by saying that than run eight weeks straight of liver toxic drug(s).
    I don't think this rationale holds any weight to the discussion at hand. Nor do I think its a strong defense to whether or not to use a "weak" bridge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    How did you dose Fdrol and what's your bodyweight? From my experience and what I used to recommend when working for Axis was to dose about 300mg for a 200lb person, but also depending on history. If I were to run it again, I would dose it at 400-500mg (I'm 230ish).
    I'm ~250. I dosed it at 200mg. There's a log of it on this board. I know it was low, but that was all I was willing to spend on it at the time. I actually got what I consider great results stacked with the H-Drol. I like the product. I'll probably start collecting bottles here and there of it because I want to run it next summer for 8 weeks solo @ 300mg for 4 weeks, 450-600 for 4 weeks. I know its expensive, but there are products that I have just grown to love. I have ALOT of respect for ergopharm. Thats why I'm anxious to start this 12 weeks of 11-oxo Monday!!! I take dutch chocolate GF pro after every workout and for YEARS I've been a religious user of 6-oxo. I also buy alot of desiel test. Thanks for your addition to the discussion. I lurk alot at BB.com and I'm very familiar with your posts/views.
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    Quote Originally Posted by purepower10 View Post
    But you're already shutdown. I can see the hormone being mild and causing zero to low shutdown when taken solo. But you're already shutdown and I don't feel IMO that adding more outside adrogens helps or makes you "less" shutdown.
    Well this is your opinion and, no offense, but I think I'll listen to Pat on this.

    How does T raise if you're shutdown and still taking androgens?
    By having zero to little shutdown capability, your boys will kick in due to the recognition of nothing signaling shutdown; your natural test will subsequently rise on it's own.

    I don't think this rationale holds any weight to the discussion at hand. Nor do I think its a strong defense to whether or not to use a "weak" bridge.
    It's probably not a strong defense, but I was saying it's good rationale; I have not seen anything supporting or denying it but I also do not seek an answer to this, I think it's good common sense.

    I'm ~250. I dosed it at 200mg. There's a log of it on this board. I know it was low, but that was all I was willing to spend on it at the time. I actually got what I consider great results stacked with the H-Drol. I like the product. I'll probably start collecting bottles here and there of it because I want to run it next summer for 8 weeks solo @ 300mg for 4 weeks, 450-600 for 4 weeks. I know its expensive, but there are products that I have just grown to love. I have ALOT of respect for ergopharm. Thats why I'm anxious to start this 12 weeks of 11-oxo Monday!!! I take dutch chocolate GF pro after every workout and for YEARS I've been a religious user of 6-oxo. I also buy alot of desiel test. Thanks for your addition to the discussion. I lurk alot at BB.com and I'm very familiar with your posts/views.
    I've grown wary of Get Diesel products for one reason, there's always one or two things in the ingredients that I just don't like and therefore never follow up on purchasing.
    It will be awhile before you can land any Fdrol due to the olympics in China; probably will be available in the fall or winter, like with our new 1-AD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    Well this is your opinion and, no offense, but I think I'll listen to Pat on this.
    None taken. I have learned ALOT from PAs posts on various sites. He is somewhat of a GURU when it comes to these things. Great columns in MD too. But no matter how much its debated, we all know that there is no ONE set way to cycle. We all WANT the Holy Grail cycle, but you just have to experiment and listen to your body. The body is not a textbook. Besides the difference is probably negligible anyway Just like I was saying earlier how people were worried about missing two days on cycle with the new 1-AD(which I can't wait to try for that matter!!!).



    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    By having zero to little shutdown capability, your boys will kick in due to the recognition of nothing signaling shutdown; your natural test will subsequently rise on it's own.
    And no offense to you, but I TOTALLY disagree with this rationale. Once again, YOU'RE ALREADY SHUTDOWN. I just don't see ANYTHING signaling test to rise on its own when you're already shutdown and STILL adding androgens. Thats just like saying you could do a PH for PCT(No offense EPI lover's, really)LOL!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    I've grown wary of Get Diesel products for one reason, there's always one or two things in the ingredients that I just don't like and therefore never follow up on purchasing.
    It will be awhile before you can land any Fdrol due to the olympics in China; probably will be available in the fall or winter, like with our new 1-AD.
    I heard about that whole China delimma. I didn't know it was affecting the Fdrol. That sucks! How did you dose it and for how long? I love the compound! My wife does too!LOL!!! Makes me happy, happy, joy, joy!!!LOL!!! Well if ever you have some extra cash pickup a bottle of desiel test, solid product IMO. Never tried anything else from him though except Desiel Fuel. I hear good reviews on the Ether stuff he makes. Didn't you do 9 weeks of 11-oxo? I vaguely remember seeing that somewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by purepower10 View Post
    How did you dose it and for how long?
    Damn, I think it was 300/350/350/400/400/400.

    Didn't you do 9 weeks of 11-oxo?
    Correct. 3/3/3/6/6/6/9/9/9; three weeks at 3 caps was a waste in my opinion (no pimp).
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    hdrol cuts well
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    it got me interested in using 11-oxo, some users are planning them out already on other boards. i hope to see some success, it would be badass to get a 6 week halo run at 100mg with 11-oxo for 4wks
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    Quote Originally Posted by T H E O R E M View Post
    it got me interested in using 11-oxo, some users are planning them out already on other boards. i hope to see some success, it would be badass to get a 6 week halo run at 100mg with 11-oxo for 4wks

    Ya that would be sick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    What I recommend is opposite, read below:






    I think pulsing a hormone is the retarded thing ever.


    Check this out, you might change your mind...

    (by Dr. D)

    What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

    Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by milwood View Post
    Check this out, you might change your mind...
    I've read that about a year or more ago and I think it's retarded; Dr. D is kook IMO (no offense if he's on here).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    I've read that about a year or more ago and I think it's retarded; Dr. D is kook IMO (no offense if he's on here).
    I don't know Dr.D so I can't speak for him, but I can say the 'pulsing' idea was a great marketing move. As for pulsing itself I agree it's quite shady with no solid studies backing it.

    During an every day cycle your nautural hormones slowly get more suppressed and rebound during PCT. Pulsing would have your natural test, estro, etc. bouncing all over the place, which can't be good at all IMO. I personally wouldn't want my hormones on a roller coaster.
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    I've heard Xtreme Tren was great for recomp. It seems difficult to find good information on it though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    During an every day cycle your nautural hormones slowly get more suppressed and rebound during PCT. Pulsing would have your natural test, estro, etc. bouncing all over the place, which can't be good at all IMO. I personally wouldn't want my hormones on a roller coaster.
    Which is exactly why I don't recommend it; twisting around hormones = not so good.
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