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Why do people cycle without a solid base?

  • Thread starter Thread starter pdigs
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pdigs

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i see so many cycle logs with people who shouldnt even be considering roids yet. i could really care less, the only problem is that it gives inconsistant feedback to people who actually have a good base and are ready to cycle. the results from somebody with a horrible base will be completely different from someone who has a solid base. i'd say u shouldnt even be considering a cycle unless your around 10% bf or less.
it just makes me kinda angry when theres so many bias opinions on this site about certain ph's. the research information can be completely bogus based on some out of shape shmucks log whos been working out for a month. u gotta think twice before taking someones advice when they automatically say "use the search". well thats my rant
 
You are making some good points. When i was younger,and before I had a computer I was one of those people. I had a co-worker of mine back then that got me into the stuff, but failed to tell me about PCT. Never kept any gains off of it.

I guess with the forums you've got to take the good with the bad. There is alot of good info. You just have to take the time, and have the patience to weed out the bad.
 
i understand what your saying, but i disagree on the 10%bf part. what about powerlifters? the vast majority of them are well above 10%bf, so they shouldnt be allowed to cycle, even though the high bf% helps with there sport?
 
never follow a log where someone doesn't give you a history (stats, workout, diet, cycle hist).
never follow a log where somone doesn't post photos.
if you follow those rules you can select the loggers that most match your personal goals.
cycling without a base or without research is a personal choice. to each, his own.
 
I think its hilarious that people are willing to put a drug in their bodies when they have absolutely no idea about a real diet. or better yet, what that damn drug even does. I honestly could care less if someone has a base or not, if you are educated and know how to diet correctly and recovery correctly (pct) you’ll be fine
 
I understand where you're coming from to a certain degree, but it is ultimately up to the useres discretion wether they are ready or not. And as for the 10%, that seems like an arbitrary # that you pulled out of thin air. Personally I would never cycle if i was above 10%, but I'm also not so naive as to think that everyones goals should be the same as mine. Not trying to be a **** in anyway whatsoever, just adding my take on it. :)
 
A lot of guys cycle because it gives them state in the real world (good feelings, energy, good emotions).
 
jmh80 said:
A lot of guys cycle because it gives them state in the real world (good feelings, energy, good emotions).
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now that u mention that, my buddy said thats the main reason he cycles over and over... the "well being" and confidence it gives him. he says thats the most addicting part
 
People are inherently lazy and anxious, so the "why" part is pretty simple to answer.

I understand how these people frustrate more experienced users because we see how these guys are not setting up anything in the long run. Sometimes I think the forum should instate a certain standard concerning LBM/height ratio or lift maxes that should be attained before cycling, but that is unfair to those who use for more specialized reasons, and for those "hardgainers" and I mean the few who actually exist, not the hopeless individuals that lump themselves into that category.

I don't think it is worth getting frustrated over. People will get what's coming to them. For those anxious enough and stubborn enough to do things without thinking long term, sometimes the only way to learn is from their mistakes. Too bad for them.
 
dkkon1 said:
I understand where you're coming from to a certain degree, but it is ultimately up to the useres discretion wether they are ready or not. And as for the 10%, that seems like an arbitrary # that you pulled out of thin air. Personally I would never cycle if i was above 10%, but I'm also not so naive as to think that everyones goals should be the same as mine. Not trying to be a **** in anyway whatsoever, just adding my take on it. :)
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I assume you do "lean mass" cycles? I also mean injectables not these hormones you can buy from this site.
 
pdigs said:
now that u mention that, my buddy said thats the main reason he cycles over and over... the "well being" and confidence it gives him. he says thats the most addicting part
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Eventually he'll realize he doesn't need steroids for that. That stuff comes from within - not from a supp or hair cut or clothes or car or etc.
 
I agree to an extent, but I don't agree with the 10% bf. Like said above, powerlifters have a higher bf% but doesn't mean they aren't in shape.

But otherwise, I feel ya. I have seen some pics of people recently or ran a PH who look like they never ever stepped into a gym.
 
Hank Vangut said:
never follow a log where someone doesn't give you a history (stats, workout, diet, cycle hist).
never follow a log where somone doesn't post photos.
if you follow those rules you can select the loggers that most match your personal goals.
cycling without a base or without research is a personal choice. to each, his own.
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x2.
 
jmh80 said:
That stuff comes from within - not from a supp or hair cut or clothes or car or etc.
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You shut your mouth mister.:hammer:

If I had hair I could get a hair cut and that would beat the sh1t out of any cycle or anything from this "within" place your refer to. :D

"It's not about where you are going or how you get there but how good you look getting there" :D :toofunny:
 
Kernkraft said:
you don't know the half of it... I'm a rep for a PH company on another couple other boards and have strong urges to throw my laptop half the time with the questions and comments I read.
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Blehhh... word to that. If you are going to rep w/us you need to get a desktop PC, preferably one that is smash resistant.

If you must smash a notebook, look into Panasonic TuffBooks aka PH Noobbooks
 
b unit said:
how did you come to this conclusion on what the percentage should be?
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i basically said that meaing u should be lean before cycling... if ur not lean with a decently big base u havnt been working out for long enough. im also talking only about the people who cycle out of vanity, not people who do it for athletics or powerlifting...that would be doing it for an entirely diff reason. and people who dont have good genetics shouldnt cycle at all im sorry, everyone ive ever seen who did steroids with bad genetics just looked straight up weird
 
I don't think anyone should touch anything hormonal until they are least 25 and/ or have 10 years training. But that is my opinion. I also think most people are much less advanced than they actually think.
 
jcp2 said:
I don't think anyone should touch anything hormonal until they are least 25 and/ or have 10 years training. But that is my opinion. I also think most people are much less advanced than they actually think.[/QUOTE]


That is the truth. Most people I know that cycle do it for genetic reasons. They workout and workout and can't achieve the body type they are trying for.

Personally, I think I look weird in general just from lifting lol.
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pdigs said:
i basically said that meaing u should be lean before cycling... if ur not lean with a decently big base u havnt been working out for long enough. im also talking only about the people who cycle out of vanity, not people who do it for athletics or powerlifting...that would be doing it for an entirely diff reason. and people who dont have good genetics shouldnt cycle at all im sorry, everyone ive ever seen who did steroids with bad genetics just looked straight up weird
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I cuold work out for twenty years and be 40 and not lean if I don't want to be. Leanness is body composition, no more, and has nothing at all to do with training knowledge, base, androgen experience or anything else other than leanness.

Also leanness is relative. Some people have a "set point" (look it up) that if the go below that whether it be 8%, 12% or 16% there body goes into a deprivation mode and will not grow LBM as efficiently.

The reasons one does a cycle and the prerequisite for a cycle are absolutely arbitrary and have no baring on one leanness unless of course that there fat body composition is a result of the absence of training and nutrition experience.

Nothing personal. Just think about it for a minute. :)
 
B5150 said:
I cuold work out for twenty years and be 40 and not lean if I don't want to be. Leanness is body composition, no more, and has nothing at all to do with training knowledge, base, androgen experience or anything else other than leanness.

Also leanness is relative. Some people have a "set point" (look it up) that if the go below that whether it be 8%, 12% or 16% there body goes into a deprivation mode and will not grow LBM as efficiently.

The reasons one does a cycle and the prerequisite for a cycle are absolutely arbitrary and have no baring on one leanness unless of course that there fat body composition is a result of the absence of training and nutrition experience.

Nothing personal. Just think about it for a minute. :)
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ive never known anyone that "didnt want to be lean" regardless of what build they were going for. if u worked out for 20yrs and werent lean then u either dont know what the fuk ur doing, or have horrible genetics. now if ur a football center and need alot of fat as well as muscle... well thats something different and has nothing to do with bodybuilding
 
pdigs said:
ive never known anyone that "didnt want to be lean" regardless of what build they were going for. if u worked out for 20yrs and werent lean then u either dont know what the fuk ur doing, or have horrible genetics. now if ur a football center and need alot of fat as well as muscle... well thats something different and has nothing to do with bodybuilding
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that's a bold call pdigs, i've lifted for close to 19 years and unlike you i do know quite a few guys that are more than happy being big and strong, they are not fat nor are they lean, they are merely interested in being big, bulked and lifting heavy, some of these guys if they wanted to could get cut very easily but they don't, they like lifting heavy too much to get lean, they love their food and don't want to lose some power.

so to say that they have bad genetics or don't know what the fuk they doing is way too general IMHO.

how long exactly have you been in gyms working out yourself?
 
I see some of your points but I'd say it's obvious that you can't allow yourself to see things from others perspectives. there are tons of guys on here that are genetically gifted and don't have to fight to stay relatively lean. there are some that have to fight a constant battle to keep their body fat % low. (low is relative)

I agree that you should do what you can with the genetics you were given and that these types of products should be saved for pushing beyond your personal genetic potential. but that is different for every person!

I personally have to FIGHT to get/stay below 15% and if I slip up (even just a little) for just short period of time my BF will jump up in a heartbeat.
 
pdigs said:
ive never known anyone that "didnt want to be lean" regardless of what build they were going for. if u worked out for 20yrs and werent lean then u either dont know what the fuk ur doing, or have horrible genetics. now if ur a football center and need alot of fat as well as muscle... well thats something different and has nothing to do with bodybuilding
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It all depend on what you consider lean and where your natural set point is. For an ecto lean is natural and easy but they can't grown easily. For a meso they are often leaner and can grow easily. For the majority, which seem to be endo it requires work for either and there need be a trade off.

If you understand what setpoint means you may better understand what I mean.

So I am having a conversation with you and making the assumption. But bodyfat is not an indicator of any status or level of maturity in lifting, nutrition or training experience other than that they happen to have extra body fat at or about their natural setpoint.

We are not talking about obese we are talking about body fat % relative to setpoint and the ability to gain lbm based on that setpoint. Physiologically if your are under your natural body fat setpoint you make it much much harder to gain LBM. Whether your setpoint happen to be 8% or 12% or 16%.
 
some consider bodybuilding a sport but IMHO the majority consider it a lifestyle

i would say 100% that i have never meet a competitve BBer who didn't want to be lean.

All this talk about building a solid base first IMHO applys to a lot of supps in general, I believe that a noob should go as far as they can on just the basics like good nutrition, good form and adequate rest even before they think about using creatine. The further one can go without supplementing at the start, the more one has a better base to build from.

but that's just my humble opinion.
 
B5150, isn't it possible to change your bodies set point if you keep your body composition in a certain state for a period of time?
 
b unit said:
that's a bold call pdigs, i've lifted for close to 19 years and unlike you i do know quite a few guys that are more than happy being big and strong, they are not fat nor are they lean, they are merely interested in being big, bulked and lifting heavy, some of these guys if they wanted to could get cut very easily but they don't, they like lifting heavy too much to get lean, they love their food and don't want to lose some power.
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what u mean to say is that most your freinds are work horses who like to drink beer... that is fine i could care less, i have freinds like that too. theyre also probably the type that frown apon men shaving there bodies, correct? haha. diet is more than half the battle when it comes to bbing and u can ask anyone that. thus, proper diet and proper training for 20 years would make u lean no matter what. i consider dieting part of bodybuilding... it might be a judgement call but so what i'm making it. im confident in doing so
 
so, you don't think genetics has any play in this?

and that all people have the same abilities when it comes to body composition?
 
B5150 said:
It all depend on what you consider lean and where your natural set point is. For an ecto lean is natural and easy but they can't grown easily. For a meso they are often leaner and can grow easily. For the majority, which seem to be endo it requires work for either and there need be a trade off.

If you understand what setpoint means you may better understand what I mean.

So I am having a conversation with you and making the assumption. But bodyfat is not an indicator of any status or level of maturity in lifting, nutrition or training experience other than that they happen to have extra body fat at or about their natural setpoint.

We are not talking about obese we are talking about body fat % relative to setpoint and the ability to gain lbm based on that setpoint. Physiologically if your are under your natural body fat setpoint you make it much much harder to gain LBM. Whether your setpoint happen to be 8% or 12% or 16%.
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lean means u can see all seperate groups of muscles, and all the cut lines. lean does not mean skinny. yes, it is easier to gain muscle with a little fat i understand what ur saying about the setpoint... but once u get to a bulk setpoint, then u lean out. if u just keep bulking and bulking then u will become fatter and fatter, less lean and less lean. u have to bulk and cut to achieve leaness if you are an endomorph... if u are ecto then u only have to bulk and ull stay lean. if u are meso then u only have to bulk as well, except with maybe a little cutting
 
pdigs said:
what u mean to say is that most your freinds are work horses who like to drink beer... that is fine i could care less, i have freinds like that too. theyre also probably the type that frown apon men shaving there bodies, correct? haha. diet is more than half the battle when it comes to bbing and u can ask anyone that. thus, proper diet and proper training for 20 years would make u lean no matter what. i consider dieting part of bodybuilding... it might be a judgement call but so what i'm making it. im confident in doing so
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no i don't mean to say that so let me correct you.

you forget to mention that they also crush cans on their foreheads and eat lightbulbs, they don't lift weights, only kegs! and their idea of curling weights is drinking beer with glass jugs!

is this what you mean?
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dude, you're so far of the mark, drinking beer and lifting weights is counter productive for a start, you seem to do a lot of generalising here and who gives a f*ck if a guy wants to shave his body, big deal!! this is not 1970 bro.

as for diet, that definition is up for interpurtation for each of us.

Here's a definition (Invalid Link Removed) of the word diet, as you will see there are 3 different meanings for this word.

di·et 1 (dt)
n.
1. The usual food and drink of a person or animal.
2. A regulated selection of foods, as for medical reasons or cosmetic weight loss.
3. Something used, enjoyed, or provided regularly: subsisted on a diet of detective novels during his vacation.
adj.
1. Of or relating to a food regimen designed to promote weight loss in a person or an animal: the diet industry.
2.
a. Having fewer calories.
b. Sweetened with a noncaloric sugar substitute.
3. Designed to reduce or suppress the appetite: diet pills; diet drugs.

as for eating sensibly (diet) being a battle, well it doesn't have to be that way, i think some people stress to much with this lifestyle, how many guys do you see in the gym that seem to look like they're about to have a heart attack, you're supposed to enjoy it for f*cksake! eating right really isn't that hard, it all depends on what motivates you and what your goals are but that's just my humble opinion.
 
I'm not on steroids. Just a few vitamins called H-Drol, 11-OXO, and Furazadrol. They're vitamins, because they're legal. :)
 
b unit said:
as for eating sensibly (diet) being a battle, well it doesn't have to be that way, i think some people stress to much with this lifestyle, how many guys do you see in the gym that seem to look like they're about to have a heart attack, you're supposed to enjoy it for f*cksake! eating right really isn't that hard, it all depends on what motivates you and what your goals are but that's just my humble opinion.
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i agree with that. i have gotten too hardcore lately and i really dont enjoy it as much as i should. i need to enjoy what i eat more often my freinds are always telling me that. my lifestyle is all about bbing because the alternative for me is well...lets not get into it. so for now im gun hoe, but maybe down the road ill enjoy life more, i hope. what i really dont understand is the guys that are all hardcore who have no reason to be
 
pdigs said:
i agree with that. i have gotten too hardcore lately and i really dont enjoy it as much as i should. i need to enjoy what i eat more often my freinds are always telling me that. my lifestyle is all about bbing because the alternative for me is well...lets not get into it. so for now im gun hoe, but maybe down the road ill enjoy life more, i hope. what i really dont understand is the guys that are all hardcore who have no reason to be
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reasons are as individual as the people who have them,one size does not fit all.

why do people need a reason that you could understand? i know that i lot of people just enjoy lifting weight, the feeling and chemicals the body naturally releases when going hard in the gym can be quite addicting. for some people it's not all about looking good at the beach or in the pool, there's a great feeling to be had by achieving goals and the rush from banging out a personal best.

there's been lots of times where the strength i've gained from years of lifting have helped numerous people from helping an old lady who's car has broken down and needs a push off the road in busy traffic to even saving a life or 2 in some unfortunate situations.

if one does not enjoy what one does it soon becomes a chore, life and lifting should be enjoyed but that's just how i see things and it definitly doesn't mean that one shouldn't be focused.

all the best to u and your pursuit on all things BB'ing
 
I'm on the "other" vitamin E
(Epi ;))
And i'm still natural, in fact i'm 150% natural.
 
pdigs said:
lean means u can see all seperate groups of muscles, and all the cut lines. lean does not mean skinny. yes, it is easier to gain muscle with a little fat i understand what ur saying about the setpoint... but once u get to a bulk setpoint, then u lean out. if u just keep bulking and bulking then u will become fatter and fatter, less lean and less lean. u have to bulk and cut to achieve leaness if you are an endomorph... if u are ecto then u only have to bulk and ull stay lean. if u are meso then u only have to bulk as well, except with maybe a little cutting
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you do not understand what a body fat setpoint is
 
Wow, this conversation went way off course. IMO you should have been lifting (properly) for a minimum of 5 years, and have a solid understanding of the type of diet you will require to reach your goals. When you stop making any gains on lifting and diet, you can then supplement. I was 24 when this happened.

However, the true answer to the posted question is one of sociological consequence. As society "advances" people have become used to instant gratification or "quick fixes". The mentality is that I can put my blood, sweat and tears into my goals and maybe realize them naturally in 5-10 years, or I can immediately jump on the magic sauce and get there in 2-3 years. Given the way most people approach every problem in their lives, which choice is made? I have seen multitudes of young men show up at the gym one day, and over the next few months gain about 15-20lbs of water and then stop coming. I see them on the street several weeks later and they are smaller than when they began!

With a solid base, steroids will not cause astronomical gains, but the gains are more easily kept, because you know how you got them to begin with.
 
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