liver damage

[jcp2]

Has anyone ever seen heard or read about actual cases of liver damage pertaining to steroid use. Lots of talk on it here, very little facts. I am curious.

 

[Piph05]

I think i read somewhere on this forum about someones friend who ran Superdrol for 7 weeks and then got blasted one night. I guess the next day he was yellow and coughing up blood. This is just what i read about someones friend.

The reason why i think you dont hear to much about it is because the people on the board are smart enough and responsible enough to not cause anymore unnecessary damage to their liver. People running an oral arent going to be getting bombed every week during their cycle which should cause liver damage.

 

[jcp2]

I think i read somewhere on this forum about someones friend who ran Superdrol for 7 weeks and then got blasted one night. I guess the next day he was yellow and coughing up blood. This is just what i read about someones friend.

The reason why i think you dont hear to much about it is because the people on the board are smart enough and responsible enough to not cause anymore unnecessary damage to their liver. People running an oral arent going to be getting bombed every week during their cycle which should cause liver damage.

I don't think that is why, but i would like to know. Unless methylated prohormones are far and away more toxic than things like anadrol and halo i am curious as to where the fear of all of the sudden shitting your liver out came from. I have been around the message boads for a long long time, and have seen some crazy ****, and have also known of at least one person who has died due to steroids, but it was not from their liver. Kidney issues seem to be real, cholesterol issues are real, but even medicinal anadrol did not seem to cause long term liver problems. This is meant to be a discussion, i mean if a thread can have 4 pages about whether some dude in 300 juiced this thread can create a discussion that is stated over and over by just about everyone.

 

[Brian5225]

Honestly though, how can you possibly say that there is no liver problems when 1) People have had bloodwork done, and had liver values fked way up 2) To the aforementioned story about the SD for 7 weeks and whatnot, if the SD was not effecting his liver at all, he shouldn't have gotten jaundice (thats a liver problem) from getting blitzed for a night. I think the liver problem is quite obvious. Even look at the chemical structures.

Anadrol - 17 beta-hydroxy-2-hydroxymethylene-17alpha-methyl-5 alpha-androstan-3-one

Dianabol - 17 beta-hydroxy-17alpha-methyl-1,4-androstadien-3-one

Superdrol - 2a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one

The chemicals are all 17 alkylated, and all methylated (except SD which is dimethyl).


This is an exerpt from a writeup on the chemistry of Superdrol

Liver-toxicity : The hepatoxicity of this compound is rather high. That may have been one of the reasons no one has marketed or researched such a compound for pharmaceutical use before. In all instances I observed personally (which were admittedly only 4 instances of use of 40 mg/day for 6 weeks), liver values were elevated above acceptable levels, and considerably elevated above the values seen for the same duration of time with equal (dbol) or higher (Anavar, Anadrol, Winstrol) doses of other commonly (ab)used oral steroids. Use should therefore definitely be restricted to 30-40 mg/day for 6 weeks. If higher doses are used, or compound is used for a longer period of time, liver values should be checked at regular intervals.



Honestly, I think the proof and anecdotal evidence is quite obvious. This should follow with compounds like M1T, Phera, etc.

 

[Piph05]

I think it is quite obvious that orals have a strong toxic affect on the liver. I am sure most of us have gone through college where binge drinking 3-4 nights a week was common and I myself or anyone i knew at school never woke up the next day yellow or coughing up blood.

So it is obvious that your liver is going through intense stress while taking an oral. The SD story pretty much proves that, yea the guy was running it 3 weeks longer then recommended but to think orals dont harm your liver much or at all is just ridiculous considering the stories and blood work that is posted everywhere.

 

[jcp2]

I think it is quite obvious that orals have a strong toxic affect on the liver. I am sure most of us have gone through college where binge drinking 3-4 nights a week was common and I myself or anyone i knew at school never woke up the next day yellow or coughing up blood.

So it is obvious that your liver is going through intense stress while taking an oral. The SD story pretty much proves that, yea the guy was running it 3 weeks longer then recommended but to think orals dont harm your liver much or at all is just ridiculous considering the stories and blood work that is posted everywhere.

Stories, or one story. Just curious. And where is this story, was the dude taking tylenol with it. Where are all the stories in the medical literature, do you know the medicinal doses of anadrol and the durations? These are just things i am curious about. Also do you think taking something that will give you jaundice in 7 weeks is a good idea. I know peolpe that have taken upwards of 200mg+ of dbol a day and never had jaundice or any issues. I am not saying that these things are great on your body, i am just curious what people know here or what are they guessing about and just following the herd.

 

[stl123]

Stories, or one story. Just curious. And where is this story, was the dude taking tylenol with it. Where are all the stories in the medical literature, do you know the medicinal doses of anadrol and the durations? These are just things i am curious about. Also do you think taking something that will give you jaundice in 7 weeks is a good idea. I know peolpe that have taken upwards of 200mg+ of dbol a day and never had jaundice or any issues. I am not saying that these things are great on your body, i am just curious what people know here or what are they guessing about and just following the herd.

Run a search instead of having other people look this stuff up for you. People are this way because they see results from blood work and then form an educated opinion on it. There's tons of information on this topic. Stop being lazy and do the work yourself.:cheers:

obviously people don't think this because one dumbsh*t didn't know what he was doing. It's a fact.

 

[futurepilot]

"The extensive metabolism of the oral forms of anabolic steroids leads to sigmficant hepatotoxic effects. The abnormalities in liver function caused by anabolic steroids are usually reversible upon discontinuation of the druge26O ral anabolic steroids may cause cholestasis, jaundice, and, seldornly, a pathologic condition associated exclusively with oral anabolic steroids, peliosis hepatis. Pelosis hepatis is the formation of blood-filled sacs in the liver, which may rupture and cause fatal hem0rrhage.~OJl.~C6r eagh et a138 reported the fatal rupture of ahepatic tumor in a 27-year-old body
builder who had been taking oral anabolic steroids. Two cases of hepatocellular carcinoma have been reported
in otherwise healthy athletes who used anabolic steroids.39"

If you care to read this, its a long b!tch.

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/reprint/75/5/426.pdf

 

[jcp2]

bloodwork due to an elevated liver test. No **** you are going to get that. Show me the the literature where people have had liver problems due to steroid use. One guys friend drinking on a drug is not what you base an entire stance on something on. Steroids go way back. Just show me the cases of liver damage in some kind of medical literature.

 

[jcp2]

"The extensive metabolism of the oral forms of anabolic steroids leads to sigmficant hepatotoxic effects. The abnormalities in liver function caused by anabolic steroids are usually reversible upon discontinuation of the druge26O ral anabolic steroids may cause cholestasis, jaundice, and, seldornly, a pathologic condition associated exclusively with oral anabolic steroids, peliosis hepatis. Pelosis hepatis is the formation of blood-filled sacs in the liver, which may rupture and cause fatal hem0rrhage.~OJl.~C6r eagh et a138 reported the fatal rupture of ahepatic tumor in a 27-year-old body
builder who had been taking oral anabolic steroids. Two cases of hepatocellular carcinoma have been reported
in otherwise healthy athletes who used anabolic steroids.39"

If you care to read this, its a long b!tch.

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/reprint/75/5/426.pdf

Thanks, that is what i am talking about. I have also read about a few cases concerning anadrol, but they were after years of use. Now how many people have taken tons of orals over the last 50 years, and i doubt you will find 10 reports of any long term liver damage in that time. Now what are the affects of long term cholesterol issues in some, and what about ****ed bp for a long time. Just look at pro bodybuilding and the amount of kidney problems you see. Or maybe you beleive that they are all problems they had their whole life. I am not trying to say that protecting the liver is foolish, it is not. I am trying to get a discussion going on this subject.

 

[stl123]

bloodwork due to an elevated liver test. No **** you are going to get that. Show me the the literature where people have had liver problems due to steroid use. One guys friend drinking on a drug is not what you base an entire stance on something on. Steroids go way back. Just show me the cases of liver damage in some kind of medical literature.

Why don't you take the time to look for it yourself rather than telling people to find it for you. The information is out there. If you don't believe it is true, which you obviously don't, then do some research or disregard it. I certainly am not going to do your research for you.

 

[mattikus]

Read any one of the many scientific studies done and you wil see evidence of liver damage. I've seen now retired bodybuilders talk about seriously damaged livers. Steve Mihalik had to get cysts and tumors removed from his liver.
OP, it seems like you refuse to believe what everyone is telling you. So, why don't you take a bunch of orals for a few months and let us know how it goes mmmkay?

 

[jcp2]

Read any one of the many scientific studies done and you wil see evidence of liver damage. I've seen now retired bodybuilders talk about seriously damaged livers. Steve Mihalik had to get cysts and tumors removed from his liver.
OP, it seems like you refuse to believe what everyone is telling you. So, why don't you take a bunch of orals for a few months and let us know how it goes mmmkay?

I don't refuse to beleive it, obviously alcohol consumption which we all regard as safe will lead to liver damage. But under what circumstances. If anyone here is even familiar with the fact that anadrol was actually prescribed for some time, under the consensus here they should all be dead from liver failure as it was prescribed for months to years on end and at higher dosages than some take for 4 weeks as an oral jumpstart.

 

[jcp2]

Bodybuilding.com - Roy Harper - Hepatoxicty: Fact Or Fiction? Will Steroids Ruin Your Liver?

This is pretty good. Has some good info and some references.

No, i don't normally go to that site, found it by searching yahoo.

 

[mathis50262]

Read any one of the many scientific studies done and you wil see evidence of liver damage. I've seen now retired bodybuilders talk about seriously damaged livers. Steve Mihalik had to get cysts and tumors removed from his liver.
OP, it seems like you refuse to believe what everyone is telling you. So, why don't you take a bunch of orals for a few months and let us know how it goes mmmkay?

I'm going to have to agree with this, if you want proof, see for yourself, run a 8 week cycle of Superdrol/Anadrol and w/o liver sups. and let us know how your doing.:fool2:

 

[jcp2]

I'm going to have to agree with this, if you want proof, see for yourself, run a 8 week cycle of Superdrol/Anadrol and w/o liver sups. and let us know how your doing.:fool2:

Why are you agreeing, because you read on a message board from another 24 year old that you should not do this. Jesus, anadrol for more than 8 weeks. Half the members of any hardcore gym in this country should be on the transplant list.

 

[mattikus]

Alot of the guys that have problems have damage that has accumulated over time. Most will not have problems from a few weeks of anadrol, however I know of a fellow that was coughing up blood after 4 weeks of anadrol at 100 mg/ day. You can certainly argue that liver damage from steroids is blown out of proportion, but when a liver goes bad, it is no joke. I think caution is the general consensus when it comes to steroid use vs. liver damage, and many people are overly cautious, understandably.

 

[jcp2]

Alot of the guys that have problems have damage that has accumulated over time. Most will not have problems from a few weeks of anadrol, however I know of a fellow that was coughing up blood after 4 weeks of anadrol at 100 mg/ day. You can certainly argue that liver damage from steroids is blown out of proportion, but when a liver goes bad, it is no joke. I think caution is the general consensus when it comes to steroid use vs. liver damage, and many people are overly cautious, understandably.

You definately don't want the liver to go bad. This was meant to be a discussion, but of course i have some guy telling me to do a search. I have been "searching" for 8 years. I don't need to read a story about a buddies cousin at a party or whatever. I really want to read people opinions when i get back from the gym. But somebody screaming an opinion because they read it on here does not do much for an actual discussiong, goes back to the parroting that boards are notorious for.

 

[ReaperX]

Part of the answers you are looking for are not out there yet. I mean rarely do we hear 'bad' things happen to the IFBB pros who are using so many different drugs at once. If we got a more balanced view of the good/bad aspects from everyone's cycle that'd be a different story.

also too everyone is different in the way that they react to certain stuff. Anyone who uses any type of anabolic should always do before/after bloodwork. I'd guess may be 10-15% actually do.

The truth is no one really knows. That's part of the 'risk' you take.

 

[mathis50262]

Reaper, I'm loving the new Avatar that shits funny! Glad it's not another Tom Cruise!

 

[sf9ersfan8]

im sure medically used anabolics are used at a small portion of what BB'ers use and this is why they can use it for so much longer without terrible sides

 

[jcp2]

im sure medically used anabolics are used at a small portion of what BB'ers use and this is why they can use it for so much longer without terrible sides

Well, you are wrong. Anadrol has actually been used at higher doses. And much much longer durations.

 

[stl123]

Well, you are wrong. Anadrol has actually been used at higher doses. And much much longer durations.

Man. You would have to be in bad shape for your DOC to prescribe you some Anadrol. :rofl:

 

[mathis50262]

Lets get Trauma over here!

 

[jcp2]

Like i said, anadrol definately did cause some problems in the liver during treatment of anemia in people. But not enough where the liver function was compromised long term. At least that is what i get from the reading. Like i said i just wanted to start a dicussion. You can bring anyone over here, their is only so much out thier that shows people haveing truly messed livers from steroid use. It just isn't that common.

 

[Trauma1]

Hey guys. I'd be happy to do an overview for you on this topic. I have to work today, so i'll try to get something up later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Well, M1t did a good bit of liver damage for me that has not let my liver values ever get back to pre M1T levels... It's been years since i've ran that **** too. I have a thread on here somewhere.

 

[timmmah]

Hey guys. I'd be happy to do an overview for you on this topic. I have to work today, so i'll try to get something up later tonight or tomorrow.

How much worse are orals on the liver than inject-ables?

 

[ReaperX]

Well, M1t did a good bit of liver damage for me that has not let my liver values ever get back to pre M1T levels... It's been years since i've ran that **** too. I have a thread on here somewhere.

How many M1T cycles did you run total, ever ?

 

[Jayhawkk]

6 I think... And orals are much worse on your liver than injectables.

 

[Trauma1]

How much worse are orals on the liver than inject-ables?

In a side by side comparison orals are more hepatotoxic in general, however many different factors can play into that and influence the actual level of toxic effect. I'll break it down later when i get a chance.

 

[mathis50262]

Trauma to save the day!!

 

[jcp2]

In a side by side comparison orals are more hepatotoxic in general, however many different factors can play into that and influence the actual level of toxic effect. I'll break it down later when i get a chance.

I am interested to hear what you have to say.

 

[tilerbreaker]

I don't know if it's cool to post this, but there's a pretty good thread over at bb about liver protectants etc...it's kind of too much to post all the relevant stuff over here but if you want to check it out, here's a (broken) link...you can fill in the gaps to make it work...

forum.body*building.com/showthread.php?p=175297861

 

[jcp2]

I don't know if it's cool to post this, but there's a pretty good thread over at bb about liver protectants etc...it's kind of too much to post all the relevant stuff over here but if you want to check it out, here's a (broken) link...you can fill in the gaps to make it work...

forum.body*building.com/showthread.php?p=175297861

Excellent post.

 

[Hard Knox]

Excellent post.

So whats the skinny? I don't want to go read the whole thing.

 

[timmmah]

So whats the skinny? I don't want to go read the whole thing.

I feel ya bro, that thing is painful to read, wheres the layman terms? but I think it:aargh: says orals are DANGEROUS.

 

[tilerbreaker]

With regard to what jcp2 is trying to say about anadrol and liver toxicity in AIDS patients, the literature (this is just a quick look...I'm not really too familiar with it) does seem to show that it's a well tolerated drug for putting weight back on people with chronic wasting. From what I can find, it seems like it's used in doses ~ 100 - 150 mg/day for 3 - 6 months (or longer) and that this is correlated with increased AST and ALT readings. (So high doses for long periods of time). However, these don't seem to be indicative of long term damage.

I will say that with anadrol, it kind of looks a little like the trade off you make with chemotherapy...the drug can be kind of bad, but the disease is worse, so you make do with what you've got.

Just another note: I'm not an MD, so don't take anything I say here as advice or license to do anything...

 

[tilerbreaker]

Actually, I think the skinny is that no one really knows how damaging the orals are going to be OR how much all the so-called "liver protectant" supps will do for you. It's up to you to learn about them and how they work so you know what you are taking.

Oral anabolics CAN be DANGEROUS if you ABUSE them...

 

[jcp2]

tilerbreaker, if you go back even further anadrol was used in anemia patients. The article i posted from bodybuilding.com actually has some listed references to it. The dosing then was quite a bit more, if i remember correctly from pullout in the actual drol i would have been taking somewhere around 400 mg as per my weight. The AIDS useages are off label, it is a anemia drug. I beleive DBOL was as well, but i may be wrong with that one.

 

[Trauma1]

I had a horrible day at work guys and i'm WAY too tired right now to whip something up. I'll get to it tomorrow though. I posted a good breakdown on here before that i'll find and add in.

 

[T-Bone]

Don't forget T-bone and his experience with SD. T-bone can't sleep. He didn't get enough sleep last night. This is why he is typing in 3rd person.

 

[tilerbreaker]

Bump for Trauma (whenever he gets a chance...no hurry...)

 

[mathis50262]

bump

 

[workout8485]

bump

 

[xtgear]

Why don't you take the time to look for it yourself rather than telling people to find it for you. The information is out there. If you don't believe it is true, which you obviously don't, then do some research or disregard it. I certainly am not going to do your research for you.

agreed, this topic can be found easily, just run a search

 

[Trauma1]

I'm here guys, but i've been slammed lately with a lot going on. I promise to get something up on here soon.

 

[jcp2]

agreed, this topic can be found easily, just run a search

The problem is running a search on a message board is not researching a topic.

 

[stl123]

The problem is running a search on a message board is not researching a topic.

No one said just run a search here.:fool2: Search everywhere!! Searching is absolutely researching. WTF else would you call it there smart guy? What you are doing, asking people to look shiit up for you, is not research!!!
All you have done in this thread is argue with everyone that is trying to give you answers. If you already know (or think you know it all) then why are you here asking these questions?:afro:

 

[Hard Knox]

No one said just run a search here.:fool2: Search everywhere!! Searching is absolutely researching. WTF else would you call it there smart guy? What you are doing, asking people to look shiit up for you, is not research!!!
All you have done in this thread is argue with everyone that is trying to give you answers. If you already know (or think you know it all) then why are you here asking these questions?:afro:

Easy tiger :hammer: Personally I don't see anything wrong with a thread of this nature as a form of research. I think we're all here to learn, and I don't think he asked you to sub anyway, so if you don't like it move on down the list.