injected methyls & liver damage

[Nightwanderer]

If a compond were to be methylated for oral use, would injection still save you the liver harm or not?

 

[ReaperX]

A better question would be how well it would even work.

Methylating something is due to the introduction of the body via digestive system. The methylation is specifically needed to survive and make it still active in the blood stream. Pills, liquid suspension, whatever will still cause liver issues as long as it is going in your mouth.

If you are injecting you do not need to methylate the substance as it is being introduced into the body by a different method. Putting a substance that is made for the digestive tract intramuscular might bring up questionable results.

But in regards to your liver issues, yeah it probably will because it most likely be metabolized somehow then pass through your liver and wind up being secreted.


So in short, yes there most likely would still be some liver concerns and probably get crappier results than if you just took it orally.

 

[T-Bone]

The reason the steroids are methylated is so the can be absorbed 90% without be destroyed by the liver. Something made for oral use is for oral use only. I'm sure they make injectable versions of some oral steroids though I don't have any experience with injectables steroids. I have read quite a bit on the subject though and injectable steroids are much much safer than oral steroids. I also believe the "real" steroids are much safer than these OTC "designers". Simply because they have been around for years and your not a guina pig by using them.

 

[Nightwanderer]

yeah I just wanted to be sure, with compounds such as liquid methylated winstrol for example, since it's already suspended in a liquid, it could technically be added to preexisting contents in a syringe, but I thought it might be pointless to do so and just wanted to confirm.

 

[RedwolfWV]

Winnie is (usually) water based. you don't want to add it in with something oil based then inject. (just incase)

The short answer is injected or not, winnie is gonna cause the same amount of liver stress. It will just take a bit longer if you inject cause it misses the liver on the first pass.

 

[Nightwanderer]

Winnie is (usually) water based. you don't want to add it in with something oil based then inject. (just incase)

lol man that is funny, it's a fault of mine to get so absorbed into certain details, that I miss very plain and obvious things from time to time.

 

[nunes]

this thread can be interesting, I saw the other day an injectable form of dianabol (not equipose but methylated boldeone)and I also heard about of some methyl injectable trenbolone, I wonder if this kind of steroids are also harsh to the liver ?

 

[Xodus]

Winnie is (usually) water based. you don't want to add it in with something oil based then inject. (just incase)

The short answer is injected or not, winnie is gonna cause the same amount of liver stress. It will just take a bit longer if you inject cause it misses the liver on the first pass.

I thought most people just drank winny anyway?

 

[Nightwanderer]

I thought most people just drank winny anyway?

yeah I was under the impression the majority of users took it orally
as well, but in the profile for the methylated winnie, things were phrased in a way that made drinking it seem like a secondary method. something along the lines of 'sterile and ready for injections, but you can drink it because it's methylated', etc

 

[AlexParty]

Injecting goes right into the blood stream so it doesn't affect the liver, correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[T-Bone]

Injecting goes right into the blood stream so it doesn't affect the liver, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Everything effects the liver.

 

[AlexParty]

Everything effects the liver.

There's nothing to process, it just goes straight into the bloodstream?

 

[T-Bone]

There's nothing to process, it just goes straight into the bloodstream?

One of the many functions of the liver is to "clean" the blood and filter toxic substances.

 

[AlexParty]

One of the many functions of the liver is to "clean" the blood and filter toxic substances.

Gotcha

 

[nunes]

There's nothing to process, it just goes straight into the bloodstream?

I saw somewhere that orals pass 2 times on the liver and injectables only once turning them more liver friendly but I already saw blood tests from guys that only do injectables and their liver enzymes were out of the normal range after long cycles , so yes injectables can be liver toxic too.

 

[AlexParty]

I saw somewhere that orals pass 2 times on the liver and injectables only once turning them more liver friendly

That's what I must have read. I read a thread about this 2 years ago on here, just couldn't remember. I never injected and never will, that's too extreme for me. I went with a T1pro 4 years ago, it was a trans dermal of Testosterone-1 and 4-ad I believe? I can't remember. I did that for a week and stopped because my girlfriend couldn't put up with it on my skin. I guess this is why everyone likes orals, it's easier.

 

[nunes]

That's what I must have read. I read a thread about this 2 years ago on here, just couldn't remember. I never injected and never will, that's too extreme for me. I went with a T1pro 4 years ago, it was a trans dermal of Testosterone-1 and 4-ad I believe? I can't remember. I did that for a week and stopped because my girlfriend couldn't put up with it on my skin. I guess this is why everyone likes orals, it's easier.

I understand your thoughts but if we go by side effects let me tell you, orals are much more extreme that injectables and let me tell you one more thing with some otc orals you are just one more guinea pig and injectables are human grade and well tested so the only extreme thing its the needle but you get used to it...

 

[LilPsychotic]

Injecting goes right into the blood stream so it doesn't affect the liver, correct me if I'm wrong here.

You dont want to inject into the bloodstream, that would be bad.

 

[jonny21]

I saw somewhere that orals pass 2 times on the liver and injectables only once turning them more liver friendly

Does not sound right. That sounds like Brotelligence.

 

[stxnas]

^^^No offense, but I was thinking the same thing. I'm, not quite sure you'd be able to quantify something like. I'm sure things like half life and the amount being used would also play a large role.

I do understand the point that trying to be made though.



EDIT: Don't forget your Cycle Support guys!

I couldn't resist

 

[AlexParty]

^^^No offense, but I was thinking the same thing. I'm, not quite sure you'd be able to quantify something like. I'm sure things like half life and the amount being used would also play a large role.

I do understand the point that trying to be made though.



EDIT: Don't forget your Cycle Support guys!

I couldn't resist

Cycle support is 'the' most important supplement while on a cycle, that's the bottom line.

 

[nunes]

Does not sound right. That sounds like Brotelligence.

I dont know what is brotelligence but I`m not a doctor or chemist .
It was a very simple way of put things but I was not very far from truth cause orals pass 2 times once by the digestive system and then after this first pass they enter the bloodstream and then the liver again does is job purifying the blood, injectables only have this second fase

orals vs injectables
Anabolic steroids are commonly taken in two ways: orally or by injection. Oral steroids tend to have the greatest number of side effects. When they are ingested, they have to pass through the digestive system and the liver in order to get into the bloodstream. They have to be designed so as to survive this process, and taken in sufficiently large amounts to insure that there is enough left afterwards to have an effect.

Steroids taken in this form are subject to aggressive action by the liver, whose job it is in large part to remove such substances from the body. This puts a great deal of strain on the liver and, in some cases, this can result in significant liver damage.

Steroids taken by injection can be water-based or oil-based. Generally, the oil-based steroids have a longer half-life than those that are water-based (and much longer than the orals), making those the substances that most often show up in steroid tests. Because they are not designed to pass through the digestive system, as well as other technical reasons, injectable steroids tend to have a much less stressful effect on the liver.

 

[jonny21]

It was a very simple way of put things but I was not very far from truth cause orals pass 2 times once by the digestive system and then after this first pass they enter the bloodstream and then the liver again does is job purifying the blood, injectables only have this second fase

Well, you are far from the truth.

Granted, an oral 17aa will go directly to the liver via the hepatic portal but all is not metabolized on the first pass, second pass, third pass...have you heard of the half-life of the chemical?
Quick description: ingest 100mg chemical with 6 hour half-life. 6 hours later 50mg metabolized, 50mg still circulating.

The methylated AAS will continue to pass through the liver until completely metabolized. Do you think that your blood only passes through the liver once or twice upon ingestion/injection of the hormone?

Now, injectables will form depot in muscle and be released over time but if it is a 17aa it will still carry the same effect on liver as taken orally. The time frame from point a to b will just be longer do to injecting IM.

Edit: BTW, Brotelligence is false or misleading information that is unsubstantiated by fact, evidence or rational other than "this Bro at the gym told me" or "this Bro online told me"

 

[jonny21]

Steroids taken by injection can be water-based or oil-based. Generally, the oil-based steroids have a longer half-life than those that are water-based (and much longer than the orals), making those the substances that most often show up in steroid tests. Because they are not designed to pass through the digestive system, as well as other technical reasons, injectable steroids tend to have a much less stressful effect on the liver.

I believe what has confused you is that they are referring to non-17aa AAS i.e. Deca-durabolin, EQ

 

[nunes]

Well, you are far from the truth.

Granted, an oral 17aa will go directly to the liver via the hepatic portal but all is not metabolized on the first pass, second pass, third pass...have you heard of the half-life of the chemical?
Quick description: ingest 100mg chemical with 6 hour half-life. 6 hours later 50mg metabolized, 50mg still circulating.

The methylated AAS will continue to pass through the liver until completely metabolized. Do you think that your blood only passes through the liver once or twice upon ingestion/injection of the hormone?

Now, injectables will form depot in muscle and be released over time but if it is a 17aa it will still carry the same effect on liver as taken orally. The time frame from point a to b will just be longer do to injecting IM.

the explanation I posted was on the bb.com steroid articles, and i dont know if its wrong or not but if you know the difference on the first place you should have posted before.
as I said I`m not a doctor or a chemist so I`m sorry if the information from bb its wrong but I just think people don't have to be rude around here but discuss and learn so thanks for your information

just one more thing I did a quick search around some forums and a lot of people thinks the same way that I posted, maybe this is a common mistake or not I really don't have the studies in this area to know for sure

 

[nunes]

I believe what has confused you is that they are referring to non-17aa AAS i.e. Deca-durabolin, EQ

it was a misunderstanding ,by the time I posted the first information I was thinking in injectables on general not methyl injectables, sorry my friend:thumbsup:

 

[jonny21]

it was a misunderstanding , sorry my friend:thumbsup:

Not a problem. Sorry if I came off rude.

The problem is that people tend to think it is the form of administration that cause the toxicity and forget that it is the chemical structure. The standard injectables are non-17aa and given IM/SC because they have very poor oral bioavailability. The real confusion sets in when people inject a 17aa which was made 17aa to make it orally bioavailable.

 

[mattikus]

I too have heard many times that injected winny is less strain on the liver. Whether or not this is true, I have heard even moreso that injected winny has much better and faster effects than oral. Most that have done both say injectable is worth every bit of pain. I would like to bump this for more info.

 

[jonny21]

I too have heard many times that injected winny is less strain on the liver. Whether or not this is true, I have heard even moreso that injected winny has much better and faster effects than oral. Most that have done both say injectable is worth every bit of pain. I would like to bump this for more info.

This is out of the mind of William Llewellyn:

Oral 17alpha alkylation

You have most lively seen this reference in steroid materials. 17alpha alkylation is a process in which an extra carbon atom is added to the steroid molecule at the 17th position. This atom occupies a bond needed for the steroid to reduce to inactive 17-keto form, totally inhibiting this pathway of metabolism (2). The addition of 17 alkylation works to extend the half-life of the steroid considerably. With it we present we have half-lives measured in hours instead of only minutes. Unfortunately 17alpha alkylation also can lessen the ability of the steroid to bind to the androgen receptor. But the two traits balance out such that typically we still have a more physiologically active steroid molecule though (3). This alteration is the most favorable for oral dosing. Since the liver cannot process this type of steroid well, a large percentage will make it to the blood stream intact. It however is also somewhat toxic to the liver, and therefore less than ideal, especially if we are considering another avenue of administration such as injection.

Sounds like he is saying that it may be more toxic if injected since more gets into bloodstream.

I have heard that results are better when taken IM, maybe because more gets into bloodstream.

 

[ReaperX]

I'm not so sure. I think it is all relative.

Assuming you wanted to get equal results oral vs. injectible, you will have to use less when injecting vs. oral, minus the methyls that will be involved.

 

[ReaperX]

Also I think real world application would indicate that injectible is indeed less harmful to the body.

People do injectibles for what ? 12 weeks ? 15 weeks ?

Unless you are a noob or something, oral cycles are max. 4 weeks.

 

[jonny21]

Also I think real world application would indicate that injectible is indeed less harmful to the body.

People do injectibles for what ? 12 weeks ? 15 weeks ?

Unless you are a noob or something, oral cycles are max. 4 weeks.

you are missing the whole point though. Injectables that are done for that period of time are not 17aa.

Anyway, I'll take Mr. Llewellyn's thoughts on the topic a little more seriously than 99.9% of the Bro's on any board.

 

[ReaperX]

nevermind, i re-read the article.

 

[stxnas]

This is out of the mind of William Llewellyn:

Since the liver cannot process this type of steroid well, a large percentage will make it to the blood stream intact. It however is also somewhat toxic to the liver, and therefore less than ideal, especially if we are considering another avenue of administration such as injection.

Sounds like he is saying that it may be more toxic if injected since more gets into bloodstream.

I have heard that results are better when taken IM, maybe because more gets into bloodstream.

I didn't quite read it that way, but understand what you're saying.

I read it W.L. basically saying that if you're going to inject it makes no sense to do so with methyls. As we all know, methylation is done only to provide an oral route of administration and not without its cost (hepatotoxicity).

It's hard to say though, that quote is a little unclear when dissected as we have just done.

Reaper, who's the chick in your avy with the big b....b....beers in her hands?

 

[mattikus]

Lol at stxnas' stutter. Why would anybody inject winny then? It is supposedly a very painful shot, and if just as toxic either way, what are the benefits of injection? Are there not any studies that compare toxicology of injected methyls versus oral?

 

[stxnas]

I believe it's a lot cheaper for injectables than it is for orals.

And like Johnny suggested, you might get more of it into your bloodstream, so injecting it would be more effective at the same dose than taking it orally (again, cheaper).

 

[ReaperX]

new g.f. met her at the gym. There's a great story behind it. Seems like there's a interesting story behind everything in my life. :hammer:

 

[T-Bone]

Also I think real world application would indicate that injectible is indeed less harmful to the body.

People do injectibles for what ? 12 weeks ? 15 weeks ?

Unless you are a noob or something, oral cycles are max. 4 weeks.

No they are not 4 weeks max. There was a time when everything wasn't methylated and there was also products that aren't so toxic and need to be run for at least 6 weeks, preferably 8.