Info on nolva and clomid.....

[russianstar]

So many of you arent sure what a serm is.. what it does, and why its a must after a pro hormone, or steroid cycle, just because pro hormones can be bought over the counter, it doesnt mean they dont need to be treated respectfully, without proper PCT you are endangering your short and long term health... Boobies for life.

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider
Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles,
but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their
completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment
of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility
aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as
post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.



But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth
to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and
the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was
mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid
(and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the
body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After
a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body
compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen
as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between
the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is
lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon
as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen,
so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated
to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically
how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.



Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex
is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results
in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses
of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild
estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor,
but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor
and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to
reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing
for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen
in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

 

[russianstar]

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is
discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop
much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner
than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems
such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start
20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with
some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen
while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away.
This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.



So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both
as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its
simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained
with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key
role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective.
But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural
testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence.
The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness
of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas
Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.



Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an
estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen
are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent
in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver,
while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex
can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body,
and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will
not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will
help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

 

[russianstar]

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as
if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring
natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it
improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic
side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly
because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect
the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3
in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.



Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains
made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger.
Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing
growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose
utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best
suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore
reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid
during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem
that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the
weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between
gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects,
or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing
is free.



Stacking and Use:



If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop
up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily
should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem
subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it
is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration
as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid
for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead
cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should
the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same
manner as described above.



Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle
therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will
help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the
type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately,
even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables
were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and
if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after
the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from
3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued
to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex
is discontinued.



For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin),
which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG
use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually
1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid.
The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone
and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural
testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more
important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex,
doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex
or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish
the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional
two weeks.



References



1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen,
in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27



2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins
and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

 

[russianstar]

http://www.steroidology.com/steroid-articles/steroid.info/45/Nolva_vs._Clomid_for_PCT.html

This is the link i havent edited anything, hope this helps some of you... all the best with your training, Russian.

 

[305Rob]

:goodpost: TTT

 

[russianstar]

Thanks hope it helps everyone.

 

[nephilim666]

nice, yea clomid and tamox are essentialy very alike. i use both in PCT but clomid for muhc shorter duration as it makes me moody like a 12 yr old girl

 

[FLfinest81]

Great post

 

[yeahright]

Great post

Except for the glaring factual errors:

"After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body
compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen
as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone"

"Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less."

:toofunny:

 

[FLfinest81]

So what he was saying is wrong???? Why can't we get this right?????

 

[yeahright]

So what he was saying is wrong???? Why can't we get this right?????

I stopped looking for errors after the first couple paragraphs.

Sigh.

First, the body doesn't compensate for the drop in androgen levels by creating more estrogen. There's an estrogen imbalance BECAUSE the artificial androgens go away. The male body manufactures estrogen FROM testosterone.

Second, the SERMS cited in the article don't "reduce post cycle of estrogen." They merely block the estrogen from being able to be active (the SERM blocks the estrogen receptor - in different cells depending upon the SERM). There are lots of complicated metabolic effects that I'm not going to go into but you can summarize them by saying that they have the indirect effect of stimulating testosterone production.

The author of that post (or whoever he cut and pasted it from) is a clown.

 

[russianstar]

i would say this was pretty accurate. thats why i posted it. It is in laymans terms, its not meant to bamboozle new comers with thoughts and words they done understand or cant grasp. I just hope like i said at the start it helps newcomers, i could of edited it, but im not an expert, so im sorry YEAH RIGHT but in general this is good info.

 

[yeahright]

i would say this was pretty accurate. thats why i posted it. It is in laymans terms, its not meant to bamboozle new comers with thoughts and words they done understand or cant grasp. I just hope like i said at the start it helps newcomers, i could of edited it, but im not an expert, so im sorry YEAH RIGHT but in general this is good info.

Except for the parts where it completely missexplains how the endocrine system works and what SERMS do in the body.