M-drol + P-plex

Navyrigger

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This will be my second cycle, the first was on Halotest-25(Promagnon-25). When i started i weighed in at 155lbs. 5 foot 7. Now i'm 170lbs. My bench went from 225x5 to 265x5. but i got sick in the 3rd week so i had to cut it short. 2 months later i still have the gains but i'm stuck.
This is what i have coming!
M-drol, P-plex, Novedex XT, Powerlab PCT(natural), Green Bulge, Milk Thistle and Plasmajets.

I was thinking of bridging the the P-plex and M-drol 6 weeks and using the Novedex after and then the natural PCT.
Or stacking the 2, or 4 weeks p-plex and then 4 weeks M-drol.

What are some opinions?
 
Australian made

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Oh my.

Do you understand what these compunds are the likely side effects??? How old are you, how long have you been lifting?

Do not run 6 weeks or bridge either of these together!!

Search the site and check out the logs on these two. And no, what you have for PCT is junk, you need a SERM!!
 
Condition1

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Bro you're going to def need a SERM if you're running M-drol or any superdrol clone. Look through the PCT section and use the search function. You should have lurked this forum BEFORE posting this you'd have a better idea. :frustrate
 

Navyrigger

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Bro i'm 27 and been lift for about 6 years.
 
neoborn

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/subbed for when I get home to post my lil search blurb n PCT blurb
 

Navyrigger

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I have searched this forum for weeks and i see others talking about an almost identical stack and they get alot better feedback then what i'm getting. I have read logs and reviews and i get blood work and BP reading regularly, i also know how to read my body.

Back to the subject:
Some people say you need a SERM some not. If i feel that i'm going to need one i'll get one but i'm not planing on it. I will be in Greece next month so I might get one anyway if enough people say so.
 
Australian made

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I have searched this forum for weeks and i see others talking about an almost identical stack and they get alot better feedback then what i'm getting. I have read logs and reviews and i get blood work and BP reading regularly, i also know how to read my body.

Back to the subject:
Some people say you need a SERM some not. If i feel that i'm going to need one i'll get one but i'm not planing on it. I will be in Greece next month so I might get one anyway if enough people say so.
Ok your not 16 @ 135 so my bad. BUT i wasn't joking about these two. IF your training and nutrition is in order then run either one or the other. Back in 05-06 im sure you'l see more people running these two together but to be honest there really isn't any point. You want to gain 15lbs, well you can achieve that from 4 weeks of phera or 3-4 weeks of super. You do need a SERM mate, things can go wrong during cycle and without a SERM you wil have no chance of stopping any gyno or getting your nuts producing again. In all honesty if you cannot obtain a SERM do not run either of these. Look into Epistane or an Epi clone or Halo. Epi is great for bulking, on it myself right now, you won't be disappointed, and the sides are minimal.

ps. Neo's post will be much more colourful then mine.........
 
Australian made

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Toremifene or Nolva (tamoxifene)...........i know i didnt spell them right.
 

russianstar

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Yeah man australian is right, you have to have a serm, clomid will do otherwise, i actualy prefer it with a dht compounds, but a serm isnt an option, its a must, if you do a 6 week bridge, you need lower dosages than normal.

some info for you...
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider
Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles,
but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their
completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment
of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility
aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as
post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.



But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth
to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and
the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was
mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid
(and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the
body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After
a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body
compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen
as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between
the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is
lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon
as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen,
so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated
to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically
how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.



Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex
is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results
in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses
of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild
estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor,
but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor
and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to
reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing
for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen
in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.
 

russianstar

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This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is
discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop
much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner
than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems
such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start
20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with
some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen
while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away.
This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.



So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both
as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its
simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained
with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key
role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective.
But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural
testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence.
The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness
of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas
Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.



Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an
estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen
are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent
in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver,
while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex
can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body,
and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will
not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will
help to contain the problem to a larger degree.



Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as
if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring
natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it
improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic
side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly
because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect
the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3
in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.



Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains
made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger.
Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing
growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose
utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best
suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore
reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid
during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem
that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the
weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between
gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects,
or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing
is free.
 

russianstar

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Stacking and Use:



If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop
up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily
should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem
subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it
is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration
as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid
for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead
cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should
the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same
manner as described above.



Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle
therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will
help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the
type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately,
even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables
were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and
if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after
the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from
3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued
to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex
is discontinued.



For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin),
which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG
use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually
1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid.
The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone
and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural
testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more
important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex,
doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex
or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish
the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional
two weeks.



References



1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen,
in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27



2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins
and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9
 

russianstar

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No worries bro, just looking out for you.
 
Condition1

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This being your second cycle, run the M-drol 10/20/20 3 weeks. You're not going to want to touch the P-plex after M-drol IMO as my superdrol gains were... I was happy. I can't help you with the bridging, but I used liquid Nolvadex (tamoxifen) with no problems why risk it? My buddy has lumpy nipples.

Joints were dry, slight acne, nasty back pumps. I didn't feel any other sides that are usually reported and i'm your size 5' 7" 165 lbs.

Hope that helps, get that SERM.
 

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