[Ziquor]

Originally Posted by Mass_69

Yeah, the PH vs. Active is pretty much symantics. Testosterone is active, but can convert to DHT or estradiol, both of which are "active" too. To be honest, I have no idea "what" Max-LMG converts to. Some kind of progestin that you'd probably have to find in the Vida Text.

Halodrol's structure is 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol. Many of the other -diols are said to be able to bind to the AR I believe because of the 17b-ol, but their activity is weaker than their 3=O (3-one) parent. Like my previous post said, this also applies to the other -diol prohormones such as 1-AD, 4-AD, etc.

As far as the stuff like M1T, maybe someone should compile a "Nostalgia" thread for the now-banned Prohormones & Designers. I'm sure there is actually already some sort of compilation like this, but I'm about to sign off, so I don't have time to look.

Good info. I wish I knew more about chemistry but it never really interested me until lately. Does anybody yet know what the new Ergo 1-AD will be? I know it can't be the same formula as the original due to legalities.

[maynehood171]

Originally Posted by Ziquor

Good info. I wish I knew more about chemistry but it never really interested me until lately. Does anybody yet know what the new Ergo 1-AD will be? I know it can't be the same formula as the original due to legalities.

I don't know but according to some guy he mentioned that PA said that it will convert to 1-Test so this will be interesting...

[LSU Gladiator]

I just looked, and it says it on their site. That's pretty bad ayuss.

Nostalgia.

That makes me curious, are there any other BAMF products coming out from other brands?

[Ziquor]

Originally Posted by LSU Gladiator

I just looked, and it says it on their site. That's pretty bad ayuss.

Nostalgia.

That makes me curious, are there any other BAMF products coming out from other brands?

CEL is supposed to be releasing a new hormonal soon but they still haven't said what it is yet.

[intwo]

Originally Posted by Mass_69

Yeah, the PH vs. Active is pretty much symantics. Testosterone is active, but can convert to DHT or estradiol, both of which are "active" too. To be honest, I have no idea "what" Max-LMG converts to. Some kind of progestin that you'd probably have to find in the Vida Text.

Halodrol's structure is 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol. Many of the other -diols are said to be able to bind to the AR I believe because of the 17b-ol, but their activity is weaker than their 3=O (3-one) parent. Like my previous post said, this also applies to the other -diol prohormones such as 1-AD, 4-AD, etc.

As far as the stuff like M1T, maybe someone should compile a "Nostalgia" thread for the now-banned Prohormones & Designers. I'm sure there is actually already some sort of compilation like this, but I'm about to sign off, so I don't have time to look.

i wish i had a ebook of vida's book, iv'e been looking i found a copy at the ucla biomed lib but they said it was 'lost', the next nearest copy would be at the CA state library and that's like 10hr away

[Ziquor]

All - I updated this today so let me know if anything's wrong, needs changed, etc. Thanks!

[MuscleBound1337]

Doesn't Halodrol convert to OT? Shouldn't that be on the prohormone list?

[Ziquor]

Originally Posted by leetuser

Doesn't Halodrol convert to OT? Shouldn't that be on the prohormone list?

Seems to be the question of the month. I always thought it was a PH but many told me that it's an active hormone of its own needing no conversion. Also people who've used both also stated they feel/work very differently.

[MuscleBound1337]

I was under the impression it had a very high conversion rate to OT, but then again I never saw any scientific explanation for it.

[tilerbreaker]

I like this chart a lot!

The only other things I can think of are propadrol (EST) and the new formulation for 3-AD (2-androstenol acetate --> Madol)...if you're looking to update again...

Thanks for making that chart...I hope more people take a look at it...

[Mass_69]

Originally Posted by leetuser

Doesn't Halodrol convert to OT? Shouldn't that be on the prohormone list?

See my posts earlier in the thread: #58 OTC Hormone Chart & #60 OTC Hormone Chart

[Ziquor]

Originally Posted by Mass_69

See my posts earlier in the thread: #58 OTC Hormone Chart & #60 OTC Hormone Chart

ALL - I updated the charts with a couple additional compounds and I moved Halo & Promag per your suggestions. Thanks for the input!

[Ziquor]

One thing that confuses me about active vs. non is some say that chemicals need to be 17b-Hydroxy-3-One to be active. But I also heard that compounds just need the 17b-Hydroxy (or 17b-ol - same thing) to be considered active. When PH's are digested - your bodies 17b-Hydroxy (17b-ol) enzymes are what makes the PH active. Also Phera is a highly active steroid & it doesn't have the 3-one on it? Damn I guess that's why I didn't go to school for chemistry.

[tilerbreaker]

As I understand it, the steroid must have the 17beta-OH (hydroxy) group to be able to bind the androgen receptor (which is what makes it active and lets it do its thing). Many other carbon positions on the steroid can be modified with different groups and this gives different effects on how well the steroid binds and activates the receptor (i.e. 11-keto, 7-methyl, 19-nor, etc.). I can't really explain any better, 'cause I'm still trying to get my head around all these modifications myself...

Anyway, I personally think there could be some other things going on, like effects of different metabolites, non-androgen receptor mediated effects, possibly effects that occur through the excess of the steroid and it's metabolites binding and occupying various enzymes (HSDs etc) so that they can't carry out other functions. Maybe there are even different types of receptors that act completely differently than the known androgen receptor (such as seems to be the case for estrogen). Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of active research into the mechanisms of steroid activity b/c they've largely been given up by much of the medical community & pharmaceutical industry (who have moved on to "SARMs," myostatin, etc.

Wow...sorry to rant on...hopefully I threw out some food for thought though...

DS

[Mass_69]

Originally Posted by Ziquor

One thing that confuses me about active vs. non is some say that chemicals need to be 17b-Hydroxy-3-One to be active. But I also heard that compounds just need the 17b-Hydroxy (or 17b-ol - same thing) to be considered active. When PH's are digested - your bodies 17b-Hydroxy (17b-ol) enzymes are what makes the PH active. Also Phera is a highly active steroid & it doesn't have the 3-one on it? Damn I guess that's why I didn't go to school for chemistry.

Originally Posted by tilerbreaker

As I understand it, the steroid must have the 17beta-OH (hydroxy) group to be able to bind the androgen receptor (which is what makes it active and lets it do its thing). Many other carbon positions on the steroid can be modified with different groups and this gives different effects on how well the steroid binds and activates the receptor (i.e. 11-keto, 7-methyl, 19-nor, etc.). I can't really explain any better, 'cause I'm still trying to get my head around all these modifications myself...

Anyway, I personally think there could be some other things going on, like effects of different metabolites, non-androgen receptor mediated effects, possibly effects that occur through the excess of the steroid and it's metabolites binding and occupying various enzymes (HSDs etc) so that they can't carry out other functions. Maybe there are even different types of receptors that act completely differently than the known androgen receptor (such as seems to be the case for estrogen).

I think tilerbreaker hit it on the head here. There are so many different chemical changes to a hormone that can change the signals it sends, or "activity" in the body. In the original AX/DS write-up for Phera-Plex, it states, "Studies on the A-ring reduced version of 2-ene™ indicate extensive metabolism to the 3-keto analogue." A-ring reduced means it's been reduced by 5a or 5b-reductase. Phera is 5a-reduced. Perhaps Phera is really a "prohormone" to something more potent? Perhaps this explains the "wet" effects Phera tends to have although it does not directly aromatize. The write-up later goes on to say, "...there is a chance of very mild indirect aromatisation with 2-ene™ (from a metabolite, as it cannot aromatise directly itself)..."

Active is a very relative term. The prohormones (namely 3b,17b-diols) can be "active" and bind to the AR, but may not be as "active" or potent in terms of anabolic or androgenic as their 3-one-17b-ol parents or metabolites.