- 03-15-2008, 02:39 PM
This compound keeps getting rave reviews on the boards here. My personal experience with Epistane was also fantastic. But, when we hear that Epistane has low liver toxicity, what is this based upon?
1. Actual studies
2. User reports including blood work
3. Sound pharmacologic principles
I'm really hoping to bait Neoborn or some of the IBE guys into jumping in here. What I'm looking for is some defendable reason that I can continue to use this product without excess worry about liver damage.
- 03-15-2008, 03:50 PM
- 03-15-2008, 04:17 PM
03-15-2008, 04:26 PM
03-16-2008, 02:39 PM
I don't have studies in the 17-methyl version but I have studies in the ether version of Epistane which should be very similar in toxicity as they are both there to accomplish the same task. The article was very interesting actually in that they said there were no serious changes in liver values at lower dosages. Am I saying that you won't see elevated levels? Nope. The thing of interest is that there were particular studies just on the hepatoxicity and they found it not to be a risk. And this is not just epitiostanol, it is the ether derivative as well.
Dr.D did some blood work on it back when it first came out. It is floating around on IBE forums and possibly here somewhere.
03-17-2008, 11:52 AM
This may be a sophomoric biochemistry question but somebody may know the answer;
I understand that "methylated" steroids are used to get anabolic metabolites past the liver. The idea seems to be allow the compound to make a "first pass." At this point the liver "demethylates" the original compound leaving an anabolically active metabolite intact. My questions are:
1. What is liver toxic here? Is it the just the original methylated compound or is the now free methyl group also toxic?
2. Did this methyl metabolite turn into something like methanol or some other kind of related toxin?
I would think that if we better understood the nature of the toxicity, we might better address prevention.
03-17-2008, 04:12 PM
I have so far pulsed a full bottle or Epidrol and am now (after I did PCT) doing a four weeker. I got my blood done after that but they forgot ...sigh I was so pissed to take liver values. So I'll be getting it done again.Originally Posted by Bill Llewellyn
03-17-2008, 09:56 PM
03-17-2008, 10:02 PM
03-18-2008, 02:08 AM
03-18-2008, 03:53 AM
i ran an epistane/trenadrol cycle and liver enzymes were normal after a 3 week PCT of nolva... no support supps what so ever
i forget the exact numbers but ALT and AST were both low "normal" range 3 weeks post cycle... and i drank occasionally during PCT
03-18-2008, 11:09 AM
As someone just stated above his liver values were within range. We have had blood work done and no one has really shown to have anything too crazy yet.
03-18-2008, 11:33 AM
Could you look back to post #6 and let me know if there's anything there?
Thanks for your input!
03-18-2008, 11:38 AM
03-18-2008, 12:10 PM
From Neo's post...
quoting Bill Llewellyn...
"Some are mistakenly assuming that Havoc is both less toxic to your liver, and less damaging to your cholesterol, than other oral steroids, and there is nothing to suggest this is true, especially since no investigations into the heath risks of methepitiostane have ever been conducted. We do know that liver toxicity is directly tied to the steroidís potency and resistance to liver breakdown. Given that methepitiostane is both potent and c-17alpha alkylated, a sufficient level of liver toxicity is assumed."
So he clearly states that Epistane and clones are just as toxic as any other methylated steroid, say SuperDrol for example. Or to restate:
Epistane is every bit as liver toxic as SuperDrol.
Am I missing something in this logic? Because numerous users (including myself) have had solid, side-free cycles with this compound. The few examples of blood work that have been posted here seem to show that toxicity is minimal.
Perhaps Epistane is less resistant to liver breakdown and this is the key to lower toxicity. What we need then is a measure of resistance to liver metabolism. Perhaps SD is more resistant and thus more toxic.
03-18-2008, 12:52 PM
03-18-2008, 02:51 PM
Just as a note, and I have not myself tried Epistane or know much about it, adding a methyl group to a steroid or other items does not automatically make it highly liver toxic. Bill Llewellyn makes a lot of assumptions in his statement there and it is easy enough to see that it is not true. There are numerous anabolic agents that have been methylated and produced medium to very low liver toxicity. And for the example about methyl tren it proves the point that results of adding the methyl group can differ wildly depending on the compound.
03-18-2008, 03:00 PM
03-18-2008, 03:04 PM
lets not forget caffine is methylated... is that going to toast my liver too????
I have blood done after PCT fellas done after a 4 week Epi(@60mg) and dbol(@35mg) cycle and it was within normal ranges for liver values, if it were that bad then stacked with Dbol i would have been in a world of hurt and it would have shoed on my blood.
03-18-2008, 03:13 PM
there will be a toxicity issue to some degree but its going to vary from compound to compound not just be either toxic as **** for being methylated or jsut fine for not.... oh btw non methylated compounds can put severe stress on your liver too.
Dont follow blindly fellas, that means dont take my word for it either. There is blood done here and there, myself included and you can see how low this truely does effect the liver.
Ill see if I can get blood drawn next time I use it, I wont use any other methyls or any liver support supps and will get the blood done before pct 12 hours after my last dose and we will see where I stand. I wont be able to do this for months to come, prob august or sept, but call me on it when you see my pre "o" prep cycle log pop up and Ill make sure to get er done.
03-18-2008, 04:02 PM
03-18-2008, 04:04 PM
Based off of pure logic in this thread, I would have to pick #1 (Skye). Until I have seen a concrete study or evidence (the blood work), that's all we've got.
As well, I don't discount what William L. said, but it is nothing more than an assumption, which he himself said. I think he just wants people to not assume that because everything "feels" alright, it is. Caution is all.
03-18-2008, 04:10 PM
I quoted the guy but I don't believe it. There's too many folks getting good/great results with Epistane and clones. He seems to be saying that methylated steroids all have about the same toxicity. I was just trying to fan the flames a bit.
You got me thinking real hard about all this though. The fact is you almost died using something that thousands of others have successfully run (SuperDrol). Maybe you're genetically inclined to process these substances different in your liver. I just don't know. A lot of folks, many Asian, have a genetic quirk that doesn't allow them to drink alcohol. I mean a half a beer and they're floored. They don't have a certain enzyme to process the alcohol fully. Maybe methylated steroids are your private poison. I don't blame you for never wanting to use this stuff again. I would really like to know how that happened to you though.
03-18-2008, 04:13 PM
neither one of the "case studies" mentioned by posters in this thread would demonstrate liver stress if it was occurring...both had bloodwork done "some" time after PCT was over, presumably a minimum of 4 weeks after last dose. this tells me approximately nothing.
your arguments DO lend creedence to the "17aa's in general arent that terrible for a healthy liver, and the effects are transient besides" arguments that have been debated for years, however...and as such are compelling...but they DON'T show that 17aa-epitio products are "easy on your liver" by any stretch.
i would venture to say than liver enzymes at least 4 weeks after, say, a month of anadrol administration would show little to no elevation, for a healthy subject. (like i said, i am venturing, but it's to make a point)
03-18-2008, 05:51 PM
You guys keep stating that there is no research on methylated eiptiostanol and I agree. But I keep stating that there IS research on the ether form in the 17a position. The toxicity levels would be very close to that of a methyl. In some cases the ether can actually be more toxic (depends on the compound). The article states that there were no significant increases in liver values. The key word being significant. If you took 40mg of Epistane for 8 weeks will there be significant increases? Hell yea. It is all in how you take it and how you combat it.
Bill L. definitely makes too many assumptions here, I agree with Skye on that point.
03-18-2008, 05:53 PM
liver enzymes will recover pretty drastically after the discontinuation of any methyl steroid... Even after a cycle of superdrol, most pple's liver enzymes recover within 4-6 weeks
Blood work taken while "on" cycle would def be the best indicator of how liver toxic the epithio compound really is... but that being said it's still good to know that after 3 weeks, levels return to the normal range
however, I find it hard to believe that the hepatoxicicity of superdrol compares to that of epistane
And as for the post about Nolva being hepatoxic... that claim is highly exaggerated IMO, i'v had bloodwork several times only days after discontinuing nolva and haven't had elevated liver enzymes as a result
03-18-2008, 06:01 PM
03-18-2008, 06:10 PM
03-19-2008, 04:55 PM
Check your PMs
Please send me an email we want to get going on this
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03-20-2008, 09:14 AM
1. It's mild on your liver if you use regular dosing schemes
2. Do a run yourself with bloodwork before and after to see if this is true.
3. Do you see any evidence, anywhere on any board to the contrary?
03-20-2008, 10:53 AM
Nolvadex is metabolized by the liver, so it can cause hepatotoxicity. However, nolvadex has been shown to protect against alcohol-induced liver damage and estrogen-related hepatic injury (think xeno-estrogens, etc.) I'd say it's pretty safe within the bounds of it's prescribed dosing range. There's no interaction with alcohol or AAS. The only real danger would be huge doses and prolonged exposure, much as anything else that would cause permanent liver damage. I can't give an estimate of what this number could be, but I'm sure you wouldn't reach it with typical bodybuilding use.
Dr. Skeptik wrote:
Tamoxifen is the most studied drug ever released. There is about 50 million patient years of experience--in studies--in women for guidance.
Historically, liver dysfunction was most reported in Scandinavia in the early 1970's; but there the standard dose was 40 mg per day, rather than 20 mg which became standard in the early 1980's. On that dose, liver dysfunction is exceedingly rare.
The tamoxifen protective effects are seen in rats and mice which have a different metabolism of it than do humans. I would not count on a hepato-protective effect.
Liver dysfunction occasionally associated with tamoxifen may be due to fattly liver, or "non-alcohol steatic hepatitis (NASH)" It may not be causative, but permissive; i.e., it uncovers the metabolic tendency toward NASH in middle-aged women. (And cirrhosis due to tamoxifen must be so rare as to be reportable.)
Prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction.
But you are correct: doses of 20 mg per day in men is almost as safe as a peanut butter sandwich, and probably safer than tylenol with beer.
Contrary to Schwarzenegger's objection,just because something is metabolized in the liver does not predict that it is hepatotoxic. Direct hepatotoxicity is exceedingly rare and I offered the explanation from the Scandinavian experience.
Dysfunction, or steatosis, does not seem to rise in incidence after the first 6 months; this rare finding is not a cumulative risk over time, but it is sporadic, and may be influeced by diet and lipid levels. (The data are available from randomized trials of tamoxifen taken for 5 years versus 10 years.). And while there may be greater authorities in SERM pharmacology, I have been involved in this research for 25 years."
I find this quite interesting to say the least...what do you guys think???
03-20-2008, 11:04 AM
makes sense, and most of the studies done are over a span of months and even years, considering the use of the drug to treat breast cancer... so it would only make sense that using a mild dose over 3-4 weeks would not cause much hepatoxic concern
03-21-2008, 10:57 AM
03-21-2008, 03:04 PM
pple go to the hospital for liver probs. from taking aspirin... but "most" can pop asprin for a couple weeks and recover just fine... the liver is extremely resiliant, but everyone has there threshold
but i don't know your story personally
03-21-2008, 03:23 PM
"Most" people do have problems with Superdrol. There is even a .pdf on here about it. I'm not sure where it is. I'll search for it.
Heres a thread where I post about my experience with SD,
It is post #105 and a few others.
03-21-2008, 08:22 PM
03-21-2008, 08:32 PM
03-21-2008, 08:34 PM
WOW I was going to say...I was about to wreck havoc in this thread if that was true
03-21-2008, 08:35 PM
03-22-2008, 03:36 PM
sounds like a shi*ty experience for sure, and i'm not doubting that superdrol was a major contributor in your situation... but there had to be some other underlying factor
I also ran SD back in 05 and was a moron about it, I drank heavily several times during the cycle, and although i experienced some symptoms of liver distress i.e. a 3 day hangover after partying one night... I never had anything near the symptoms you described
But either way superdrol was prob a poor example for me to use as it is an extremely harsh compound, and many experience problems with it... but it's usually not to the extent of what you went through
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