Epistane toxicity

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    Epistane toxicity


    This compound keeps getting rave reviews on the boards here. My personal experience with Epistane was also fantastic. But, when we hear that Epistane has low liver toxicity, what is this based upon?

    1. Actual studies
    2. User reports including blood work
    3. Sound pharmacologic principles

    I'm really hoping to bait Neoborn or some of the IBE guys into jumping in here. What I'm looking for is some defendable reason that I can continue to use this product without excess worry about liver damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpk View Post
    This compound keeps getting rave reviews on the boards here. My personal experience with Epistane was also fantastic. But, when we hear that Epistane has low liver toxicity, what is this based upon?

    1. Actual studies
    2. User reports including blood work
    3. Sound pharmacologic principles

    I'm really hoping to bait Neoborn or some of the IBE guys into jumping in here. What I'm looking for is some defendable reason that I can continue to use this product without excess worry about liver damage.
    Where does it say that you can take Epi and
    "use this product without excess worry about liver damage"
    .? Epi is milder on the liver than many PH/PS orals like Superdrol but anything methylated isn't gonna be 'easy' on the liver.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    Where does it say that you can take Epi and .? Epi is milder on the liver than many PH/PS orals like Superdrol but anything methylated isn't gonna be 'easy' on the liver.

    Right here,

    "If you donít want to worry about how your lipid and liver values are doing and whether or not you are going to get gynocomastia or not then get Epistaneô, stop worrying, and experience what others are raving about!"
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Right here,

    "If you donít want to worry about how your lipid and liver values are doing and whether or not you are going to get gynocomastia or not then get Epistaneô, stop worrying, and experience what others are raving about!"
    Excellent. Congrats on 4,000 BTW!
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    I don't have studies in the 17-methyl version but I have studies in the ether version of Epistane which should be very similar in toxicity as they are both there to accomplish the same task. The article was very interesting actually in that they said there were no serious changes in liver values at lower dosages. Am I saying that you won't see elevated levels? Nope. The thing of interest is that there were particular studies just on the hepatoxicity and they found it not to be a risk. And this is not just epitiostanol, it is the ether derivative as well.

    Dr.D did some blood work on it back when it first came out. It is floating around on IBE forums and possibly here somewhere.
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    Metabolites?


    This may be a sophomoric biochemistry question but somebody may know the answer;

    I understand that "methylated" steroids are used to get anabolic metabolites past the liver. The idea seems to be allow the compound to make a "first pass." At this point the liver "demethylates" the original compound leaving an anabolically active metabolite intact. My questions are:

    1. What is liver toxic here? Is it the just the original methylated compound or is the now free methyl group also toxic?

    2. Did this methyl metabolite turn into something like methanol or some other kind of related toxin?

    I would think that if we better understood the nature of the toxicity, we might better address prevention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Llewellyn

    Havoc Health Risks?

    Q: What do you think of Havoc? Is this steroid really potent and safe at the same time?

    Mepitiostane Chemical StructureA: Havoc (2alpha,3alpha-epithio-17alpha-methyl-5alpha-androstan-17beta-ol) is a methylated derivative of a Japanese anabolic/anti-estrogenic steroid called mepitiostane (Thioderon). As such, it would be most appropriate to call this steroid Meth-epitiostane. Methepitiosane was first described in 1966, so it is technically not a new drug. It was assayed for anabolic and androgenic effect according to the standard animal administration experiments, and was show to display a much stronger tendency for anabolic (as compared to androgenic) actions. It was indeed determined to be a favorable steroid as far as reduced androgenicity was concerned, but never made it much further than that. The drug sat in research obscurity for a long time. That is until the modern “gold rush” for unknown anabolic steroids that could be sold (albeit less than legally) on the sports nutrition market. Havoc is one of the latest and most talked about additions to this group of “grey area” drugs.

    Havoc does have a few things going for it; at least as far as finding a “mild” steroid goes. For a given level of anabolic effectiveness (dose), you should notice less oily skin/acne, and will be less likely to shed hair if you are thinning, than you would with many other drugs. You are also not going to have problems with gyno, and the drug may even help to block this if your estrogen levels are a little high naturally or from other substances. But one must not mistake mildness in terms of androgenicity to mean mildness in terms of health risks. Some are mistakenly assuming that Havoc is both less toxic to your liver, and less damaging to your cholesterol, than other oral steroids, and there is nothing to suggest this is true, especially since no investigations into the heath risks of methepitiostane have ever been conducted. We do know that liver toxicity is directly tied to the steroid’s potency and resistance to liver breakdown. Given that methepitiostane is both potent and c-17alpha alkylated, a sufficient level of liver toxicity is assumed. The strongest shifts in HDL/LDL cholesterol are also seen with oral c-17 alpha alkylated steroids; so again, methepitiostane is likely to present some notable concerns here. The bottom line, Havoc is a potent yet mild (weakly androgenic) steroid, but it is still an alkylated oral. It should carry the expected liver and cardiovascular risks of other drugs of this class. Keep this in mind and you should be fine.

    By the way, it is of note that there are versions of both of the drugs discussed above sold with packaging that carries Japanese characters on it. This gives them a very “imported” look, and one might think they actually come from Japan. This is, in fact, just a product of creative (probably smart and effective) marketing. Both of these anabolic steroids (all known commercial versions) are actually being bottled for sale in the United States.
    I have so far pulsed a full bottle or Epidrol and am now (after I did PCT) doing a four weeker. I got my blood done after that but they forgot ...sigh I was so pissed to take liver values. So I'll be getting it done again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    I don't have studies in the 17-methyl version but I have studies in the ether version of Epistane which should be very similar in toxicity as they are both there to accomplish the same task.
    wow, that makes zero sense. EQ doesnt hurt your liver much, so dbol wont....ditto for tren and methyl-tren. RIGHT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    wow, that makes zero sense. EQ doesnt hurt your liver much, so dbol wont....ditto for tren and methyl-tren. RIGHT!
    It's methylated so that in itself is going to be the cause of some minor liver stress. Do you understand the toxicity of methylation Solarus?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpk View Post
    This compound keeps getting rave reviews on the boards here. My personal experience with Epistane was also fantastic. But, when we hear that Epistane has low liver toxicity, what is this based upon?

    1. Actual studies
    2. User reports including blood work
    3. Sound pharmacologic principles

    I'm really hoping to bait Neoborn or some of the IBE guys into jumping in here. What I'm looking for is some defendable reason that I can continue to use this product without excess worry about liver damage.
    For myself I would say "Real World Use" LMD etc might be able to give you a different answer.
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    i ran an epistane/trenadrol cycle and liver enzymes were normal after a 3 week PCT of nolva... no support supps what so ever

    i forget the exact numbers but ALT and AST were both low "normal" range 3 weeks post cycle... and i drank occasionally during PCT
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    wow, that makes zero sense. EQ doesnt hurt your liver much, so dbol wont....ditto for tren and methyl-tren. RIGHT!
    I am not sure if this was your attempt at trying to discredit me, act like you know what you are talking about, or be a smart ass but it makes perfect sense. Your argument about tren and methyl tren is completely different then what I was saying and is quite a bro-science way of pointing something out. The whole point of putting BASICALLY ANYTHING at the 17a position is to prevent liver degradation, whether it be a methyl a cyclopentyl ether, ester, etc. I was saying I have studies conducted on an ether derivative meaning that at the 17a position it has an ether to prevent liver breakdown. The fact that it is an ether or methyl isn't really the point.

    As someone just stated above his liver values were within range. We have had blood work done and no one has really shown to have anything too crazy yet.
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    LakeMountD,

    Could you look back to post #6 and let me know if there's anything there?

    Thanks for your input!
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    I have so far pulsed a full bottle or Epidrol and am now (after I did PCT) doing a four weeker. I got my blood done after that but they forgot ...sigh I was so pissed to take liver values. So I'll be getting it done again.

    So where did you get that quote?. Is Anabolics 2008 out yet?. I have the 04 edition. Anyway, thanks for that. Bill speaks the truth. Finally some real answers!.
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    From Neo's post...


    quoting Bill Llewellyn...

    "Some are mistakenly assuming that Havoc is both less toxic to your liver, and less damaging to your cholesterol, than other oral steroids, and there is nothing to suggest this is true, especially since no investigations into the heath risks of methepitiostane have ever been conducted. We do know that liver toxicity is directly tied to the steroidís potency and resistance to liver breakdown. Given that methepitiostane is both potent and c-17alpha alkylated, a sufficient level of liver toxicity is assumed."

    So he clearly states that Epistane and clones are just as toxic as any other methylated steroid, say SuperDrol for example. Or to restate:

    Epistane is every bit as liver toxic as SuperDrol.

    Am I missing something in this logic? Because numerous users (including myself) have had solid, side-free cycles with this compound. The few examples of blood work that have been posted here seem to show that toxicity is minimal.

    Perhaps Epistane is less resistant to liver breakdown and this is the key to lower toxicity. What we need then is a measure of resistance to liver metabolism. Perhaps SD is more resistant and thus more toxic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    i ran an epistane/trenadrol cycle and liver enzymes were normal after a 3 week PCT of nolva... no support supps what so ever

    i forget the exact numbers but ALT and AST were both low "normal" range 3 weeks post cycle... and i drank occasionally during PCT
    I understand that Nolva is also liver toxic...would you expect that your liver enzymes would be normal after 3 weeks of nolva; let alone after a cycle and nolva?
    Last edited by delsolrob; 03-18-2008 at 04:05 PM.
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    Just as a note, and I have not myself tried Epistane or know much about it, adding a methyl group to a steroid or other items does not automatically make it highly liver toxic. Bill Llewellyn makes a lot of assumptions in his statement there and it is easy enough to see that it is not true. There are numerous anabolic agents that have been methylated and produced medium to very low liver toxicity. And for the example about methyl tren it proves the point that results of adding the methyl group can differ wildly depending on the compound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skye View Post
    Just as a note, and I have not myself tried Epistane or know much about it, adding a methyl group to a steroid or other items does not automatically make it highly liver toxic. Bill Llewellyn makes a lot of assumptions in his statement there and it is easy enough to see that it is not true. There are numerous anabolic agents that have been methylated and produced medium to very low liver toxicity. And for the example about methyl tren it proves the point that results of adding the methyl group can differ wildly depending on the compound.

    Hmmm....Should I choose to believe,

    1. You?

    2. People that Sell the product?

    or,

    3. Bill Llewellyn


    I pick #3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    I am not sure if this was your attempt at trying to discredit me, act like you know what you are talking about, or be a smart ass but it makes perfect sense. Your argument about tren and methyl tren is completely different then what I was saying and is quite a bro-science way of pointing something out. The whole point of putting BASICALLY ANYTHING at the 17a position is to prevent liver degradation, whether it be a methyl a cyclopentyl ether, ester, etc. I was saying I have studies conducted on an ether derivative meaning that at the 17a position it has an ether to prevent liver breakdown. The fact that it is an ether or methyl isn't really the point.

    As someone just stated above his liver values were within range. We have had blood work done and no one has really shown to have anything too crazy yet.

    lets not forget caffine is methylated... is that going to toast my liver too????

    I have blood done after PCT fellas done after a 4 week Epi(@60mg) and dbol(@35mg) cycle and it was within normal ranges for liver values, if it were that bad then stacked with Dbol i would have been in a world of hurt and it would have shoed on my blood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Hmmm....Should I choose to believe,

    1. You?

    2. People that Sell the product?

    or,

    3. Bill Llewellyn


    I pick #3.
    you can belive him all you want T but dont misinterpret him like JPK did stating that Epi is everybit as toxic as SD. Using that same logic I can say that M1T is everybit as toxic as ergo max LMG, BUT ITS NOT.

    there will be a toxicity issue to some degree but its going to vary from compound to compound not just be either toxic as **** for being methylated or jsut fine for not.... oh btw non methylated compounds can put severe stress on your liver too.


    Dont follow blindly fellas, that means dont take my word for it either. There is blood done here and there, myself included and you can see how low this truely does effect the liver.

    Ill see if I can get blood drawn next time I use it, I wont use any other methyls or any liver support supps and will get the blood done before pct 12 hours after my last dose and we will see where I stand. I wont be able to do this for months to come, prob august or sept, but call me on it when you see my pre "o" prep cycle log pop up and Ill make sure to get er done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Hmmm....Should I choose to believe,

    1. You?

    2. People that Sell the product?

    or,

    3. Bill Llewellyn


    I pick #3.
    Option 4 would be to research the question yourself and apply common sense to the statement. It is obviously not true. The list of methylated substance that are not toxic or are low in toxicity is a long one. This includes several hormones. And given the half life of these and some for most toxic steroids there is not a good correlation there that I have seen. (in refrance to the resistance of breakdown as a half life issue) If he could show this I would certainly reconsider. I am not saying anything of Epistane (though the blood work seems pretty positive) but of the statement he made itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Hmmm....Should I choose to believe,

    1. You?

    2. People that Sell the product?

    or,

    3. Bill Llewellyn


    I pick #3.
    T-Bone, that sounded a little moody. Perhaps you don't know Skye. He's pretty well-versed in organic chemistry. Take a look back at some of his old posts.

    Based off of pure logic in this thread, I would have to pick #1 (Skye). Until I have seen a concrete study or evidence (the blood work), that's all we've got.

    As well, I don't discount what William L. said, but it is nothing more than an assumption, which he himself said. I think he just wants people to not assume that because everything "feels" alright, it is. Caution is all.
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    Poops,

    I quoted the guy but I don't believe it. There's too many folks getting good/great results with Epistane and clones. He seems to be saying that methylated steroids all have about the same toxicity. I was just trying to fan the flames a bit.

    T-bone,
    You got me thinking real hard about all this though. The fact is you almost died using something that thousands of others have successfully run (SuperDrol). Maybe you're genetically inclined to process these substances different in your liver. I just don't know. A lot of folks, many Asian, have a genetic quirk that doesn't allow them to drink alcohol. I mean a half a beer and they're floored. They don't have a certain enzyme to process the alcohol fully. Maybe methylated steroids are your private poison. I don't blame you for never wanting to use this stuff again. I would really like to know how that happened to you though.
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    neither one of the "case studies" mentioned by posters in this thread would demonstrate liver stress if it was occurring...both had bloodwork done "some" time after PCT was over, presumably a minimum of 4 weeks after last dose. this tells me approximately nothing.

    your arguments DO lend creedence to the "17aa's in general arent that terrible for a healthy liver, and the effects are transient besides" arguments that have been debated for years, however...and as such are compelling...but they DON'T show that 17aa-epitio products are "easy on your liver" by any stretch.

    i would venture to say than liver enzymes at least 4 weeks after, say, a month of anadrol administration would show little to no elevation, for a healthy subject. (like i said, i am venturing, but it's to make a point)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    neither one of the "case studies" mentioned by posters in this thread would demonstrate liver stress if it was occurring...both had bloodwork done "some" time after PCT was over, presumably a minimum of 4 weeks after last dose. this tells me approximately nothing.

    your arguments DO lend creedence to the "17aa's in general arent that terrible for a healthy liver, and the effects are transient besides" arguments that have been debated for years, however...and as such are compelling...but they DON'T show that 17aa-epitio products are "easy on your liver" by any stretch.

    i would venture to say than liver enzymes at least 4 weeks after, say, a month of anadrol administration would show little to no elevation, for a healthy subject. (like i said, i am venturing, but it's to make a point)
    That is just the point though. If you damage your liver for 4 weeks, do you really think it will have long term repercussions? It could, but more than likely no. The liver is extremely resilient as I have said time and time again. I am not saying that orals are safe by any stretch. I am merely making the point that if your liver values are good 4 weeks into PCT, than obviously you did very minor damage and that damage will be easily repaired.

    You guys keep stating that there is no research on methylated eiptiostanol and I agree. But I keep stating that there IS research on the ether form in the 17a position. The toxicity levels would be very close to that of a methyl. In some cases the ether can actually be more toxic (depends on the compound). The article states that there were no significant increases in liver values. The key word being significant. If you took 40mg of Epistane for 8 weeks will there be significant increases? Hell yea. It is all in how you take it and how you combat it.

    Bill L. definitely makes too many assumptions here, I agree with Skye on that point.
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    liver enzymes will recover pretty drastically after the discontinuation of any methyl steroid... Even after a cycle of superdrol, most pple's liver enzymes recover within 4-6 weeks

    Blood work taken while "on" cycle would def be the best indicator of how liver toxic the epithio compound really is... but that being said it's still good to know that after 3 weeks, levels return to the normal range

    however, I find it hard to believe that the hepatoxicicity of superdrol compares to that of epistane

    And as for the post about Nolva being hepatoxic... that claim is highly exaggerated IMO, i'v had bloodwork several times only days after discontinuing nolva and haven't had elevated liver enzymes as a result
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    liver enzymes will recover pretty drastically after the discontinuation of any methyl steroid... Even after a cycle of superdrol, most pple's liver enzymes recover within 4-6 weeks

    Yeah...."Most peoples"....Still, I don't know about that...
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    What happened with you and superdrol,t-bone?
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    Hey LMD,

    Check your PMs

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    1. It's mild on your liver if you use regular dosing schemes

    2. Do a run yourself with bloodwork before and after to see if this is true.

    3. Do you see any evidence, anywhere on any board to the contrary?

    /thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    liver enzymes will recover pretty drastically after the discontinuation of any methyl steroid... Even after a cycle of superdrol, most pple's liver enzymes recover within 4-6 weeks

    Blood work taken while "on" cycle would def be the best indicator of how liver toxic the epithio compound really is... but that being said it's still good to know that after 3 weeks, levels return to the normal range

    however, I find it hard to believe that the hepatoxicicity of superdrol compares to that of epistane

    And as for the post about Nolva being hepatoxic... that claim is highly exaggerated IMO, i'v had bloodwork several times only days after discontinuing nolva and haven't had elevated liver enzymes as a result
    From an article which I found very interesting...from another forum but the Dr.Skeptik said he has researched Nolvadex for 25 years...


    "Schwarzenegger wrote:
    Nolvadex is metabolized by the liver, so it can cause hepatotoxicity. However, nolvadex has been shown to protect against alcohol-induced liver damage and estrogen-related hepatic injury (think xeno-estrogens, etc.) I'd say it's pretty safe within the bounds of it's prescribed dosing range. There's no interaction with alcohol or AAS. The only real danger would be huge doses and prolonged exposure, much as anything else that would cause permanent liver damage. I can't give an estimate of what this number could be, but I'm sure you wouldn't reach it with typical bodybuilding use.

    Dr. Skeptik wrote:
    Not quite.
    Tamoxifen is the most studied drug ever released. There is about 50 million patient years of experience--in studies--in women for guidance.
    Historically, liver dysfunction was most reported in Scandinavia in the early 1970's; but there the standard dose was 40 mg per day, rather than 20 mg which became standard in the early 1980's. On that dose, liver dysfunction is exceedingly rare.

    Other points:
    The tamoxifen protective effects are seen in rats and mice which have a different metabolism of it than do humans. I would not count on a hepato-protective effect.
    Liver dysfunction occasionally associated with tamoxifen may be due to fattly liver, or "non-alcohol steatic hepatitis (NASH)" It may not be causative, but permissive; i.e., it uncovers the metabolic tendency toward NASH in middle-aged women. (And cirrhosis due to tamoxifen must be so rare as to be reportable.)
    Prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction.

    But you are correct: doses of 20 mg per day in men is almost as safe as a peanut butter sandwich, and probably safer than tylenol with beer.

    Contrary to Schwarzenegger's objection,just because something is metabolized in the liver does not predict that it is hepatotoxic. Direct hepatotoxicity is exceedingly rare and I offered the explanation from the Scandinavian experience.
    Dysfunction, or steatosis, does not seem to rise in incidence after the first 6 months; this rare finding is not a cumulative risk over time, but it is sporadic, and may be influeced by diet and lipid levels. (The data are available from randomized trials of tamoxifen taken for 5 years versus 10 years.). And while there may be greater authorities in SERM pharmacology, I have been involved in this research for 25 years."

    I find this quite interesting to say the least...what do you guys think???
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    makes sense, and most of the studies done are over a span of months and even years, considering the use of the drug to treat breast cancer... so it would only make sense that using a mild dose over 3-4 weeks would not cause much hepatoxic concern
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    liver enzymes will recover pretty drastically after the discontinuation of any methyl steroid... Even after a cycle of superdrol, most pple's liver enzymes recover within 4-6 weeks

    That is just not true, I proved it myself while I was in the hospital!. Also I am not the only one that ended up in the hospital after using Superdrol....Just search.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    That is just not true, I proved it myself while I was in the hospital!. Also I am not the only one that ended up in the hospital after using Superdrol....Just search.
    i'm not saying there arn't pple who have had issues with it... i'm just saying "most" pple with otherwies completely healthy livers

    pple go to the hospital for liver probs. from taking aspirin... but "most" can pop asprin for a couple weeks and recover just fine... the liver is extremely resiliant, but everyone has there threshold

    but i don't know your story personally
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    i'm not saying there arn't pple who have had issues with it... i'm just saying "most" pple with otherwies completely healthy livers

    pple go to the hospital for liver probs. from taking aspirin... but "most" can pop asprin for a couple weeks and recover just fine... the liver is extremely resiliant, but everyone has there threshold

    but i don't know your story personally

    "Most" people do have problems with Superdrol. There is even a .pdf on here about it. I'm not sure where it is. I'll search for it.

    Heres a thread where I post about my experience with SD,



    Superdrol Sides


    It is post #105 and a few others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    "Most" people do have problems with Superdrol. There is even a .pdf on here about it. I'm not sure where it is. I'll search for it.

    Heres a thread where I post about my experience with SD,



    Superdrol Sides


    It is post #105 and a few others.
    One guy said you were drinking during your cycle.Is this true?Also sometimes doctors will give a reason when they don't know the reason.It sounds like their was something else going on,that the superdrol pushed over the edge.The last straw.I obvisouly have no clue,but"we have no idea what happened,"is not a acceptable answer to most,if you get my point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pantera101 View Post
    One guy said you were drinking during your cycle.Is this true?Also sometimes doctors will give a reason when they don't know the reason.It sounds like their was something else going on,that the superdrol pushed over the edge.The last straw.I obvisouly have no clue,but"we have no idea what happened,"is not a acceptable answer to most,if you get my point.

    No absolutely not true, I don't drink. It was an assumption the guy made without reading everything I had to say.
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    WOW I was going to say...I was about to wreck havoc in this thread if that was true
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    Quote Originally Posted by pantera101 View Post
    One guy said you were drinking during your cycle.Is this true?Also sometimes doctors will give a reason when they don't know the reason.It sounds like their was something else going on,that the superdrol pushed over the edge.The last straw.I obvisouly have no clue,but"we have no idea what happened,"is not a acceptable answer to most,if you get my point.

    They didn't know what was going on at first..When I first got into the hopital. I think that is what you are refering to...You should reply in that thread with a quote so I understand what your replying to. I don't want to overtake this thread with this subject.
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    sounds like a shi*ty experience for sure, and i'm not doubting that superdrol was a major contributor in your situation... but there had to be some other underlying factor

    I also ran SD back in 05 and was a moron about it, I drank heavily several times during the cycle, and although i experienced some symptoms of liver distress i.e. a 3 day hangover after partying one night... I never had anything near the symptoms you described

    But either way superdrol was prob a poor example for me to use as it is an extremely harsh compound, and many experience problems with it... but it's usually not to the extent of what you went through
  

  
 

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