First Cycle

[ckoch1722]

hey, i am looking to do my first prohormone cycle, after Christmas, i am looking at somewhere around January as my start time.  i think i a just going to but T-gel from powernutrition.net and get some bulk powders and mix my own.  But i have a few question for you guys out there, i play college basketball, so mass isn't a huge deal to me, i want to gain strength, and have harder, fuller, and more vascular muscles, that is my goal.  Kinda of a cutting cycle, i guess, but really want to induce strength.

I am looking into three compounds, 1-test, 4AD, and 1,4 andro (diol)...what do you guys think, we these and my goals?

Also, i would like to minimize side effects as much as posible, and i know there are risks involved, but i was looking at 4g 1-test, 6g 4AD, 4g 1,4 Andro (diol)...does this dosing looking right?  Also, i am looking to do 4 on, 4 off, 4 on, 8 off...

If you guys have any suggestions, please let me know, as i can use any help given..thank you.

 

[Manu20]

You say you play college basketball....aren't ph's banned for college sports....2 years ago I played college baseball and we were told ph's were not allowed for college sports....just thought I'd let you know.

 

[Kitchen Chemist]

If you're looking for lean gains, take half the amount of 4-ad to 1 test. I'd suggest a 6-3-6 mix of 1-test, 4-ad, 1,4 andro in one bottle or if you want, get a second bottle of t-gel so that you can up the dosage of the 1,4 as you are only getting around 200mg a day with the mentioned above.

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
If you're looking for lean gains, take half the amount of 4-ad to 1 test. I'd suggest a 6-3-6 mix of 1-test, 4-ad, 1,4 andro in one bottle or if you want, get a second bottle of t-gel so that you can up the dosage of the 1,4 as you are only getting around 200mg a day with the mentioned above.

so should i make one 240ml bottle with 6 g 1-test and 3 grams 4AD

then another with how many grams 1,4 andro?

what would u recommend as the dosages for those 2?

 

[ckoch1722]

also, what do you think of nordiol instead of 1-test, or is 1-test the better choice in this situation?

 

[Kitchen Chemist]

No, 1-test is definately better in this situation and basically everyother situation unless you strictly looking for no sides which then i'd suggest just a nordiol cycle as it tends to have very little sides. I think the reccomended dosage of 1,4 is between 3-600mg per day probably a little on the higher end transdermal as it doesn't convert as well trans over oral. I'd run the 6-3 1-test to 4-ad or even a 9-4.5 for 6 weeks rather than 4, then in seperate bottle determine how much 1,4 you want a day applied and go from there.

 

[ckoch1722]

i would much rather do a 4 on 4 off 4 on, cycle, to limit sides, and i mean i want to put some wieght on, but i want to stay lean ya know?

i have heard that nor/1,4 andro is a good cycle for this, what is your opinion on that?

here, i am just going to give you some stats, and tell me what you think is best

20 years old

6'1 1/2" tall

about 165-170 pounds

been working out for about 4 years

around 7-8 % body fat

am a hard gainer and hard loser, i have trouble with both ares for putting on or taking off weight, i roughly stay the same, and my main gaol is to put on a some weight, increase my lifts, but not increase body fat, i like my 6 pack.

thnaks for your help by the way, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Kitchen Chemist]

I've never used nor or 1,4 myself so i can't really say cause i haven't really read about that combo either. Which sides are you worried about? Each hormone you've mentioned has a certain main side people worry about whether it be hair loss from 1-test or gyno from 4-ad etc. I'd say a nordiol and 1,4 cycle would be fairly safe, the 1,4 can cause some hair loss (not much of a worry most of the time) i think not 100% on that though..

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
I've never used nor or 1,4 myself so i can't really say cause i haven't really read about that combo either. Which sides are you worried about? Each hormone you've mentioned has a certain main side people worry about whether it be hair loss from 1-test or gyno from 4-ad etc. I'd say a nordiol and 1,4 cycle would be fairly safe, the 1,4 can cause some hair loss (not much of a worry most of the time) i think not 100% on that though..

i am really just trying to pakco n as much lean as possible, withoiut uping my body fat percentage.

 

[Kitchen Chemist]

That will all be determined by your diet rather than hormones. One test by itself will promote supremely clean gains but the lethargy will most likely be a problem.

 

[mauibuilt]

i'd go with the 1test/4ad/1,4 combo

taking in 200mg a day 1test, 100 mg a day 4ad, and 600mg a day 1,4.......thats the leanest combo you could go with fighting the lethargy (so you can still have energy to play ball). I suggest you run the 1test and 4ad in one bottle, and the 1,4 in another bottle. I also suggest you run this cycle for 6 weeks, where the 1test and 1,4 kick in late (majority ending of week 3 and beginning of week 4)...search for a thread on 1test cycle length, its actually started by KC and you will change your decision fast and go with 6 weeks.

Hope this helped.

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by mauibuilt
i'd go with the 1test/4ad/1,4 combo

taking in 200mg a day 1test, 100 mg a day 4ad, and 600mg a day 1,4.......thats the leanest combo you could go with fighting the lethargy (so you can still have energy to play ball). I suggest you run the 1test and 4ad in one bottle, and the 1,4 in another bottle. I also suggest you run this cycle for 6 weeks, where the 1test and 1,4 kick in late (majority ending of week 3 and beginning of week 4)...search for a thread on 1test cycle length, its actually started by KC and you will change your decision fast and go with 6 weeks.

Hope this helped.

that helped a lot manu, thank you very much.  you really think a 6-week cycle is the way to go?

i was convinced that 4 on 4 off was the best.

do you happen to have a link to that, i will try searching some more to see if i can find it if not.

thank you

 

 

[ckoch1722]

also, should i just take the 1,4 andro orally, instead of transdermals?

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by mauibuilt
i'd go with the 1test/4ad/1,4 combo

taking in 200mg a day 1test, 100 mg a day 4ad, and 600mg a day 1,4.......thats the leanest combo you could go with fighting the lethargy (so you can still have energy to play ball). I suggest you run the 1test and 4ad in one bottle, and the 1,4 in another bottle. I also suggest you run this cycle for 6 weeks, where the 1test and 1,4 kick in late (majority ending of week 3 and beginning of week 4)...search for a thread on 1test cycle length, its actually started by KC and you will change your decision fast and go with 6 weeks.

Hope this helped.

manu - i was messing around with the trandermal calculator and this would mean that i would need 24g of 1,4 andro, does that sound right?  i know i can't add that too a gel.

but the 1-test/4AD would work, it worked out to 8g 1-test, 4g 4AD, for the 200mg, 100mg a day, that is for a 40 day cycle, roughly 6 weeks, that would be 3 squirts a day.

so..would you suggest taking the 1,4 andro orally.

does this sound right to everyone?

 

[civsi44]

I myself have been looking at Nordiol/1,4 Andro cycle as well, my main concern are the sides which I hear are very little with those two I mentioned. I have been thinking about these two ph's for a while. I am gonna be going on a major cutting cycle and looking for more vascularity,strength etc pretty much the same reasons you are. I am not looking to get bloated I would much rather gain 4-5 lean pounds in 4-6 weeks than 12-15 pounds of fat/water/muscle. I have been thinking about the 1-test/1,4 andro/4ad cycle but then again i am not looking to add more body weight. Theres a lot to think about and research. Let us know what you decide as i am very interested as well.

 

[ckoch1722]

there are basically 3 stacks i am looking into right now and they are as follows...

nordiol/1,4 andro

1-test/1,4 andro

1-test/1,4 andro/4ad

but i am not reallt sure which one would fit me best, as this will be my first cycle, and i have been researching and asking a lot of question lately, i mean i am not doing my cycle, till probably like january, or maybe even later, but i like to be ready ya know?

i am going to be bulking starting about September 10th, till around December, without any ps/ph's, so i can just try to put some more muscle on and get ready for my stack.

as i said my main goals will be muscle hardness, vascularity, and that ripped look, ya know?

and what really sucks, is that i have read and read and read on these compunds and still can';t come to an educated guess as to which one will work best for me, and of course i like to know all the side effects before i put anything in my body, so i have been reading that, and cycle lengths.

originally i was looking at a 4 week on 4 week off 4week on 8 week off cycle, but have heard that i should do a 6 week cycle?

so if you can shed any light whatsoever, just say whatever you got to say.

Civsi44, drop me an e-mail or tal to me on AOL instant messenger if you have it, ckoch2122 or [email protected], peace man, keep me updated on your cycle also.

 

[civsi44]

Yeah I have been mainly looking at the Nordiol/1,4 Andro Cycle as well. I know what you mean about researching before you put it in your body that is exactly how I am. I won't be a doing my ph cycle for at least another month or two as I want to know every little detail I can find about it. Yeah I have AIM Civsi44 I'll hit ya up when Im on.

 

[ckoch1722]

are u playing on taking the nordiol in a transdermal and the 1,4 andro orally?

or both trandermal?

 

[mauibuilt]

lately, many users have mentioned great results using 1,4 in a transdermal. yes, it is more efficient orally, but orals don't have a long half life....where the transsdermal is slow.

From what I hear, 1,4 transdermally provides better results and converts to boldenone at a better rate.

Let's see, 600mg/day for 42 days (6weeks), yes thats little over 25grams, if you have the cash, go for it. You'd need to divide taht by two bottles, so 12.5grams per bottle....if you do not wish to spend that much, go with just 300mg dermally, but 600mg will give you much better results.

I would also plan on keeping the 1test in the mix, where it will provide a lot of lean gains as well as strength and hardness. And when taking 1test, 4ad has to stay in the mix to fight lethargy and keep up libido. So basically, if you go with 1test, you add 4ad, thats why I reccomended taking so little 4ad a day. 4ad will bloat you like no other, so you want to keep it lower.

At a minimum dosage of each, i'd go with 150mg 1test, 100mg 4ad, and 300mg 1,4

But to reap the maximum benefits i'd go with 200mg 1test, 100mg 4ad, and 600mg 1,4(at this dosage you shouldn't see much more sides than you would at the min dosage).

Yes the nordiol/1,4 (oral) would see great results also, but you wouldn't see nearly as mush as the combo I reccommended. Many users have been using 600mg a day orally of 1,4 and claimed it hasn't done much, many say at a min. for gains other than appetite to use 900mg. (at 900mg/day orally, you might as well go with the 25g 1,4 powder in 2 separate bottles, it'll cost about the same). Where as any user on this board that took 1test (where sides dont bother them) will take it any day over nordiol.

 

[mauibuilt]

and no I am not pimping any products, where I will not see any money, just telling you my opinion and others as well.

 

[civsi44]

Originally I was planning on taking the 1,4 orally because i have read about how great it converts. But lately like maui said i have read that it stays in your system/blood stream longer by taking it transdermally.

Maui do you have any idea how long it takes the 1,4 andro to kick in and be fully utilized. I have ready anywhere from 2-4 weeks. I also only planned on doing a 4 week cycle to minimize sides so now I am little confused on how long to cycle and what to cycle, there are so many opinions and good ones at that its tough to decide.

 

[Kitchen Chemist]

I made a buddy two bottles of brew with 9 grams a piece of 1,4. He was very pleased with results and that was by itself.... Ran 600mg a day, sorry i haven't spoke with him in a while so i'm not sure exactly how much he gained...

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by mauibuilt
lately, many users have mentioned great results using 1,4 in a transdermal. yes, it is more efficient orally, but orals don't have a long half life....where the transsdermal is slow.

From what I hear, 1,4 transdermally provides better results and converts to boldenone at a better rate.

Let's see, 600mg/day for 42 days (6weeks), yes thats little over 25grams, if you have the cash, go for it. You'd need to divide taht by two bottles, so 12.5grams per bottle....if you do not wish to spend that much, go with just 300mg dermally, but 600mg will give you much better results.

I would also plan on keeping the 1test in the mix, where it will provide a lot of lean gains as well as strength and hardness. And when taking 1test, 4ad has to stay in the mix to fight lethargy and keep up libido. So basically, if you go with 1test, you add 4ad, thats why I reccomended taking so little 4ad a day. 4ad will bloat you like no other, so you want to keep it lower.

At a minimum dosage of each, i'd go with 150mg 1test, 100mg 4ad, and 300mg 1,4

But to reap the maximum benefits i'd go with 200mg 1test, 100mg 4ad, and 600mg 1,4(at this dosage you shouldn't see much more sides than you would at the min dosage).

Yes the nordiol/1,4 (oral) would see great results also, but you wouldn't see nearly as mush as the combo I reccommended. Many users have been using 600mg a day orally of 1,4 and claimed it hasn't done much, many say at a min. for gains other than appetite to use 900mg. (at 900mg/day orally, you might as well go with the 25g 1,4 powder in 2 separate bottles, it'll cost about the same). Where as any user on this board that took 1test (where sides dont bother them) will take it any day over nordiol.

well, maui thanks for your post, you have basically limited my choices to 2...

1) either the Nordiol/1,4 andro transdermal

2) or the 1-test/4AD/1,4 andro transdermal

i will break it down that way and then just let me know some feedback...

1) i like the nordiol, because i have heard of great gains on it, with less sides then 1-test.  but am uncertain of the dosages per day of nordiol, anyone?  i like the 1,4 andro, for cutting, and i like this stack, because of the absence of 4 AD, because of the bloating issue.

2) i like the 1-test, because it is supposed to be the best stack for increasing vascularity and muscle hardness, the 1,4 andro for cutting, and the 4 AD to combat lethargy, but do not like the chance of hairloss, ect.  and the bloating.

so basically the 1,4 andro is going to be expensive. so the 1-test is best at 200mg per day/4AD at 100 mg per day?  now is that taken or absorbed per day?

I am thinking of running which ever cycle i come uot picking for 6 weeks or approxiametly 40 days.  does that sound about right?

also, i will be making my gel's with BDC T-Gel, which pumps out 2mL=1 squirt, so i would take 3 squirts a day of the 1-test/4AD squirt bottle, correct?

i am thinking of mixing up the 1,4 andro with the same gel, but with 2 bottle and 12g in each bottle for a total of 24 g, in 2 bottle, therefore, i will take 600mg a day, so that would be a total of 6 squirts per day in a bottle that is 2mL=1 squirt, correct?

i really think that i am going to go with the 1-test/4AD/1,4 andro stack

does my dosing sound right to everyone.

show long do you guys think, 6 weeks, 7 weeks?

also, i will have nolvadex on hand before i do my cycle, then have it for post cycle along with clomid.  i think that should do it..

any more input will be greatly appreciated...thank you everyone who has helped so far, sorry for the lengths of the posts.

 

[Longdog]

For your goals, it looks like a good old fashioned 1-Test/4-AD at a 2:1 ratio would do the trick. You could add more 4-AD if the libido loss is too much. I have not taken 1,4 Andro, but from most accounts I hear, the biggest benefit is the appetite- which will be less of a benefit to you if not looking to bulk.

If you're sold on the 1-test, 4-AD, & 1,4-Andro combo & don't want to mess around making your own, Trenabol-X by Higher Power is basically the same transdermal formula of you're looking at. I don't know anybody who's tried the Higher Power PHs though. I am sure the BDC T-gel is much better than whatever Higher Power uses. Just an idea.

 

[ckoch1722]

thanks longdog-

i mean i know i am not going to do a cycle until probably about 6 months, but i am just researching and asking question abotu hwat i think would be the best cycle, i am pretty stcuk on 2 cycles as of now

1) nordiol/1,4 Andro

2) 1-test/4AD

the reason i like the nordiol stack is because i have heard that people make great lean gains with less side effects

but the reason i like 1-test, because of the higher amount of lean gains, but am reluctant to go with the 4AD bloating, and would love to find something to combat that.

so those are what i am looking into right now, so if you could throw a little more information my way, that would be great. thanks everyone for helping out, great forum, respectful, and informative people.

 

[tatortodd]

If you're sold on the 1-test, 4-AD, & 1,4-Andro combo & don't want to mess around making your own, Trenabol-X by Higher Power is basically the same transdermal formula of you're looking at. I don't know anybody who's tried the Higher Power PHs though. I am sure the BDC T-gel is much better than whatever Higher Power uses. Just an idea.

The efficacy of the transdermal mix for Trenabol-X is unknown. Stick with a winner and either do homebrew or BDC's T-gel. Add 5g 1-Test, 5g 4-AD, and 5g 1,4 dione.

~Todd

 

[mauibuilt]

the nordiol will also bloat you if you didn't already know.

As for the length, I would go with 6 weeks. Long ago when everyone was first trying out 1test/4ad trandermals, the magic number was 4on/4off, then everyone just jumped on the bandwagon and did that, because the word was going around that was the best cycle length. But that was before more effective anti-e's came out. Now its 6-8 weeks, but many stay with 6 as gains taper down after 6-7 weeks. You should also keep in mind, with a 6 week cycle it'll be easier to keep the gains than with a 4 week cycle.

As for your squirt amounts for your dosage, Just at up the amount of mg of ph per bottle of each compound. Then divide it by 120 (if using BDC tgel because you'll get 120 squirts=240ml), thats how much mg of each compound your getting per squirt.

Ex. 12grams of 1,4 in tgel.

12000/120=100mg per squirt. SO decide how much squirt from there.

10g 1test/5grams 4ad in one bdc tgel bottle

10000/120=83.3 mg per squirt
5000/120=41.67mg per squirt

Know you know how to calc. the dosages per squirt from the amount of hormone in each bottle, so you should plan the ph amount per bottle from there. Remember you can only fit 15g of hormone per 240ml bottle.

And your question on the 200mg 1test, 100mg 4ad per day, if you should take that much a day absorbed, the answer is no. You should be fine applying 200mg 1test, 100mg 4ad. If sides like lethargy occur, you can up the 4ad, just kept the dose down to keep your lean gains. You could also up the 1test dosage, but for a first time user, I would reccommend you don't.

As for Longdog mentioning that 1,4 is only good for appetite, thats the verdict before 1,4 transdermal was being used.

 

[ckoch1722]

what is it in nordiol that provides the bloat, i thought the nordiol/1,4 andro stack was a lean gain stack and cause no water retain/bloating/fat gain?

thanks for the info maui, you have been very helpful, i will just continue researching, i guess that is all i can do, to attempt to find the best stack for me, but you have truly enlightened me, and made my decision alot easier.  thank you...

 

[ckoch1722]

is there anything i can do to control the bloat of either the nordiol or the 4AD?

 

[mauibuilt]

to tell you the truth, **** the bloat! you are overhyping the bloat. you are so lean already, we all put up with it, and you have a few %'s over most of us. looking at your height and weight, you'll enjoy the bloat.

once you start taking anti-e's, especially nolva or clomid, post cycle, you will lose all the bloat in a few days. If you take 1/2 the 4ad as you are taking 1test, and also adding 1,4 in the mix, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

My first transdermal cycle was SuperONe+....about 200mg 1test and 366mg 4ad a day! Thats 3.5 times more 4ad a day than you will be taking. you also mentioned you will be starting in january, it'll be winter where you are, and you'll be wearing sweaters, pants, etc., so unless you're a stripper or you live in hawaii like me, hehe, don't worry about it. 100mg a day of 4ad will not hold back your athletic capabilities. The thing i'd be worrying about is gaining too much strength too fast and throwing off your shot.

 

[mauibuilt]

you can control the bloat with letro or arimidex, those are both anti-e's, but you will then cancel out the estrogen related sides, so that will cancel you the purpose of 4ad...you will not reap the benefits of the increase in the libido and combatting the lethargy.

like I mentioned above, live with the bloat. Anyone on this board will tell you, if you want extremely lean gains, AND don't mind lethargy or loss of libido, drop the 4ad, go with 1test/1,4. YOu will never be happier but thats if you can handle the lethary/libido issues.

Just read on t1pro, many users lose bf on t1pro in conjunction with a healthy diet. by you adding in the 1,4 you will only get even leaner gains than those on t1pro.

like i said, 4ad bloat is overhyped. you won't know what it is till you take it. its a bloat like creatine gives you.

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by mauibuilt
to tell you the truth, **** the bloat! you are overhyping the bloat. you are so lean already, we all put up with it, and you have a few %'s over most of us. looking at your height and weight, you'll enjoy the bloat.

once you start taking anti-e's, especially nolva or clomid, post cycle, you will lose all the bloat in a few days. If you take 1/2 the 4ad as you are taking 1test, and also adding 1,4 in the mix, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

My first transdermal cycle was SuperONe+....about 200mg 1test and 366mg 4ad a day! Thats 3.5 times more 4ad a day than you will be taking. you also mentioned you will be starting in january, it'll be winter where you are, and you'll be wearing sweaters, pants, etc., so unless you're a stripper or you live in hawaii like me, hehe, don't worry about it. 100mg a day of 4ad will not hold back your athletic capabilities. The thing i'd be worrying about is gaining too much strength too fast and throwing off your shot.

Maui-

ok, bloat is now not a problem, it just the way people describe it sounds like you gain 10-12 pounds of fat & water, and playing basketball, that really isn't that good.

yeah, the shot thing won't be a problem, i am waiting till after april now to do the cycle, when the season is over anyways, and i am kinda a pass-first, bang point guard anyways, so that won't be much of problem, and i won't play in games this year, cause the starter coming back is tremendously good, pro-ball in 2 years, so that really doesn't matter.

wow, that is alot of 4 ad.

so, here is what i got thus far, i am going to do a 6 week cycle.

3 weeks post cycle recovery with nolva and clomid. 

clomid will be dosed as follows... 

day1  300mg

days2-11  100mg

days12-21  50 mg

nolva....

weeks 1-2  40 mg daily

weeks 2-4 20 mg daily

any suggestions or does that look right 2 you?

 

NOW here is my major question you said don't worry about the bloat and i am not anymore, so would you choose stack 1 or stack 2, here they are.

1)nordiol/1,4 andro (diol)

2)1-test/4AD/1,4 andro (diol)

and in either stack would you do the 1,4 andro orally or transdermally?

also should i be doing any cardio while on a cycle?

if not how long till the cycle is over should i wait to do it?

also, last question, i promise, how long after a cycle do you generally wait to cut

 

maui-respectable member here, thanks for all your help...thanks alot.

 

[mauibuilt]

as for the nolva and clomid, the dosages look correct, but being a PH cycle and moderate dosages, just choose one. Most users of gear usually choose one post cycle (clomid is usually the case) but use nolva to prevent gyno during the cycle, but rarely use both simultaneously PCT. IMO i'd choose clomid over nolva for PCT, but nolva over clomid for gyno prevention during cycle (you dont have to worry about gyno off this cycle at these dosages and cycle length).

As for the stacks, I would choose stack 2. You'll gain more strength and size. You won't know the sides of each compound until you try it right? So you might as well try the one everyone has better results from first (1test/4ad), where both stacks include 1,4 andro. I would also run the 1,4 andro transdermally. It's cheaper and more effective.

You can do cardio while on. Since you are trying to gain lean muscle I guess you could do cardio on "off" days from the weights. Others say do not do cardio while on, but since you are a basketball player, you don't have a choice really.

Most people would say DO NOT cut until post cycle therapy is completed. I personally would not cut until the amount of "off" time equals the amount of "on" time. So, in this case if you ran a cycle for 6 weeks, I would not cut until 6 weeks after you complete your cycle.

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by mauibuilt
as for the nolva and clomid, the dosages look correct, but being a PH cycle and moderate dosages, just choose one. Most users of gear usually choose one post cycle (clomid is usually the case) but use nolva to prevent gyno during the cycle, but rarely use both simultaneously PCT. IMO i'd choose clomid over nolva for PCT, but nolva over clomid for gyno prevention during cycle (you dont have to worry about gyno off this cycle at these dosages and cycle length).

As for the stacks, I would choose stack 2. You'll gain more strength and size. You won't know the sides of each compound until you try it right? So you might as well try the one everyone has better results from first (1test/4ad), where both stacks include 1,4 andro. I would also run the 1,4 andro transdermally. It's cheaper and more effective.

You can do cardio while on. Since you are trying to gain lean muscle I guess you could do cardio on "off" days from the weights. Others say do not do cardio while on, but since you are a basketball player, you don't have a choice really.

Most people would say DO NOT cut until post cycle therapy is completed. I personally would not cut until the amount of "off" time equals the amount of "on" time. So, in this case if you ran a cycle for 6 weeks, I would not cut until 6 weeks after you complete your cycle.

ok so here are the revisions that i am looking at...first off, probable start time will be sometime after april, maybe late march, expected beginning cycle weight will be about 180-190.

so i will defiantly be going with the 1-test/4AD/1,4 andro (diol) cycle now, as my first cycle, 200mg 1-test a day, 100mg 4AD a day, and 600mg 1,4 Andro (diol) a day, right so far??

as far as nolva and clomid, i will defiantly have both on hand, just in case gyno begins to appear, i have read that both would be effective PCT. cause i have read in a few places that both would be effective post-cycle.  I will deffiantly go with the clomid dosing PCT. why don't you think that the two would work well in conjunction with one another?

PCT:

Clomid-

day1  300mg

days2-11  100mg

days12-21  50 mg

possible nolva depending on your opinion?

Training- i will be doing a 4 day split with  2 cardio days.... mondays - chest & abs    tuesdays - shoulders & back    wednesdays - cardio    thursday - biceps & triceps   friday - legs & abs  s  aturday - cardio    sunday - off 

what do you think abotu that, or should i increase the volume any suggestion is welcomed.

should training be sustained the same through post-cycle therapy?  also, i will be taking creatine, san v12, and protein, so i wait to take the v12 till post cycle therapy to try to retain my gains, or i should i just cycle it throught my cycle, that sounds funny, ha??  i have also heard that people will sometimes cycle clen/t3 throught there cycle, how do you feel about that?

then 3 weeks after post cycle therapy go into a cutting cycle?

again thanks for your help, i know you don't have to do this, but it is greatly appreciated.

 

[ckoch1722]

also, i was just messing around with my transdermal calculator, basically the same as curt2go's, and 2 get 200mg 1 test and 100mg 4AD a day, i would need 9.6 grams of 1-test, and 4.8 g of 4AD added to a 240mL bottle.  that is approx. 2,5 squirts per day ( i will be using BDC T-Gel by the way)  i am thinking it would be way easier just to get an oral syringe and take out 5mL (2.5 squirts) and apply half in the morning half at night as opposed to attempting to do half squirts, what do you think about that?

 

[ckoch1722]

that is for a 48 day cycle

 

[ckoch1722]

or should i go 42 days, exactly 6 weeks?

 

[tatortodd]

so i will defiantly be going with the 1-test/4AD/1,4 andro (diol) cycle now, as my first cycle, 200mg 1-test a day, 100mg 4AD a day, and 600mg 1,4 Andro (diol) a day, right so far??

If you're doing an all transdermal cycle then in all likelihood you'll be doing 1,4 dione. BDC sold the diol version capped, and to my knowledge that was the sole source of 1,4 diol (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). The bulk hormone places that I checked (1fast400, kilosports, and beyondacentury) all carry 1,4 dione in bulk.

Don't fret, because there is a theory that the diol receptors are already saturated (might not in your low dosage of 4-AD) so the 1,4 dione works better because of available receptors.

~Todd

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by tatortodd


If you're doing an all transdermal cycle then in all likelihood you'll be doing 1,4 dione. BDC sold the diol version capped, and to my knowledge that was the sole source of 1,4 diol (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). The bulk hormone places that I checked (1fast400, kilosports, and beyondacentury) all carry 1,4 dione in bulk.

Don't fret, because there is a theory that the diol receptors are already saturated (might not in your low dosage of 4-AD) so the 1,4 dione works better because of available receptors.

~Todd

how about the aromatization of the dione version to estrogen is that a major side effect to the (dione) version?

 

[mauibuilt]

yes, you are correct, it is the dione version. Correct me if I am wrong, the capped version was also a dione?

As for using nolva and clomid both PCT, you could, but you don't need it.

As for the creatine, I've read somewhere that PH/AAS work well in conjunction with taking creatine, so its your choice. v12 will not give you bloat so good decision on that creatine for your goals. If it were me personally, i'd take the V12 post cycle. Instead of taking the v12, save yourself the stomach and take a protein shake instead.

 

[ckoch1722]

Originally posted by mauibuilt
yes, you are correct, it is the dione version. Correct me if I am wrong, the capped version was also a dione?

As for using nolva and clomid both PCT, you could, but you don't need it.

As for the creatine, I've read somewhere that PH/AAS work well in conjunction with taking creatine, so its your choice. v12 will not give you bloat so good decision on that creatine for your goals. If it were me personally, i'd take the V12 post cycle. Instead of taking the v12, save yourself the stomach and take a protein shake instead.

what about the aromatization of the (dione version) or is it insignificant in the whole scheme of the stack, what i mean is it even enought to nitice anything?

as for PCT, i will just go with clomid, for the 3 weeks, i might run the nolva for the first week, day 1 40mg/day, days 2-7 20 mg/day, just to be safe, but nothing enxtrenous, because my cycle length will be appr. 48 days. as for the clomid do you take one dose of that or do you split doses?  what about nolva?

maui- i was thinking the same thing about the v-12, i think i am going to save it for post cycle, to retain my gains, also i think i will be using FL7 post cycle as well to limit fat gain off cycle, because my cals will still be high, what do you think aboiut that?

then, on cycle, will just be protein and a multi.

then, 6 weeks after PCT, i will go into my cutting cycle, if you want to talk abotu that also, just let meknow?

well thanks for all the help both you guys, you have seriously enlightened me in the subject of PH's.. i thank you...keep the thread going...

 

[tatortodd]

Correct me if I am wrong, the capped version was also a dione?

BDC was selling the diol version (the only place I ever saw it). There are quite a few companies selling the dione version capped. Examples would be:
* 1fast400 has the dione under their own label
* many internet stores sell Molecular Nutrition's Boldione (1,4 dione).

what about the aromatization of the (dione version) or is it insignificant in the whole scheme of the stack, what i mean is it even enought to nitice anything?

I can't put my finger on it, but I know I've read about aromatization being insignificant from Molecular Nutrition's Bill L (can't remember how to spell his last name). Do a search on here or bb.com, or you could go to Molecular Nutrition's website.

~Todd

 

[mauibuilt]

From what I read a long while ago, the 1,4 dione version converts very well.

Don't worry about it, if everyones seeing good gains off of it and with little to estrogen related sides, listen to everyone else.

 

[ckoch1722]

ok guys, well, i sat up all last night and did alot more research, and had a long conversation with civsi44, who is also looking to do the same kind of cycle, i want to do.

i was looking at legalgear.com's webpage and saw a products that they have that is 4g 1-test, 6g 4AD, 4g Nordiol, which is 133.3mg/day, 200mg/day, 133.3mg/day, respectively, and i thought this was pretty interesting, since this was 3 of the 4 products that i was looking at using during my cycle, so i thought i would alter the formula a little.

i will use a 240mL T-Gel bottle, and add 6g 1-test, 3g, 4AD, 6g Nordiol, which works out to 200mg/day, 100mg/day, 200mg/day, respectively?  what do you guys think of this recipe?

Also, i think i will do a 4on-4off-4on with this stack, because it has the possiblitiy to be very lethagic, how do you guys feel about that?

also, would there be any advantages to adding either the (dione) or (diol) versions of 1,4 andro to this stack?  btw i have found both versions, the dione in powder form and the diol in pill/capsule form.

 

i think this could possibly be the best stack for me, but i am leaving this question to you guys, to rate the stack if you will, thank you, for all the help previously, and hopefully in the future...

 

 

[ckoch1722]

bump

 

[Kitchen Chemist]

Nordiol i think may be the only thing you're running short, the 1-test to 4-ad ration looks good for nice lean gains, but to be honest there really isn't a huge amount of info out about nordiol so you could be running a perfect amount or you could be running too little, hard to say.

As for the 1,4 diol versus dione, I'd go with what was cheaper Anyone seen a conversion comparison chart on these two? That'd help you make your mind on that bro.

 

[Kitchen Chemist]

By the way, that type of cycle has teh potential to shut you down pretty hard. Both 1-test and nandrolone (which nordiol converts to) and your dose of 4-ad is pretty low.