1. Originally posted by Longdog
If you're sold on the 1-test, 4-AD, &amp; 1,4-Andro combo &amp; don't want to mess around making your own, Trenabol-X by Higher Power is basically the same transdermal formula of you're looking at. I don't know anybody who's tried the Higher Power PHs though. I am sure the BDC T-gel is much better than whatever Higher Power uses. Just an idea.
The efficacy of the transdermal mix for Trenabol-X is unknown. Stick with a winner and either do homebrew or BDC's T-gel. Add 5g 1-Test, 5g 4-AD, and 5g 1,4 dione.

~Todd

2. the nordiol will also bloat you if you didn't already know.

As for the length, I would go with 6 weeks. Long ago when everyone was first trying out 1test/4ad trandermals, the magic number was 4on/4off, then everyone just jumped on the bandwagon and did that, because the word was going around that was the best cycle length. But that was before more effective anti-e's came out. Now its 6-8 weeks, but many stay with 6 as gains taper down after 6-7 weeks. You should also keep in mind, with a 6 week cycle it'll be easier to keep the gains than with a 4 week cycle.

As for your squirt amounts for your dosage, Just at up the amount of mg of ph per bottle of each compound. Then divide it by 120 (if using BDC tgel because you'll get 120 squirts=240ml), thats how much mg of each compound your getting per squirt.

Ex. 12grams of 1,4 in tgel.

12000/120=100mg per squirt. SO decide how much squirt from there.

10g 1test/5grams 4ad in one bdc tgel bottle

10000/120=83.3 mg per squirt
5000/120=41.67mg per squirt

Know you know how to calc. the dosages per squirt from the amount of hormone in each bottle, so you should plan the ph amount per bottle from there. Remember you can only fit 15g of hormone per 240ml bottle.

And your question on the 200mg 1test, 100mg 4ad per day, if you should take that much a day absorbed, the answer is no. You should be fine applying 200mg 1test, 100mg 4ad. If sides like lethargy occur, you can up the 4ad, just kept the dose down to keep your lean gains. You could also up the 1test dosage, but for a first time user, I would reccommend you don't.

As for Longdog mentioning that 1,4 is only good for appetite, thats the verdict before 1,4 transdermal was being used.
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3. what is it in nordiol that provides the bloat, i thought the nordiol/1,4 andro stack was a lean gain stack and cause no water retain/bloating/fat gain?

thanks for the info maui, you have been very helpful, i will just continue researching, i guess that is all i can do, to attempt to find the best stack for me, but you have truly enlightened me, and made my decision alot easier.&nbsp; thank you...

4. is there anything i can do to control the bloat of either the nordiol or the 4AD?

5. to tell you the truth, **** the bloat! you are overhyping the bloat. you are so lean already, we all put up with it, and you have a few %'s over most of us. looking at your height and weight, you'll enjoy the bloat.

once you start taking anti-e's, especially nolva or clomid, post cycle, you will lose all the bloat in a few days. If you take 1/2 the 4ad as you are taking 1test, and also adding 1,4 in the mix, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

My first transdermal cycle was SuperONe+....about 200mg 1test and 366mg 4ad a day! Thats 3.5 times more 4ad a day than you will be taking. you also mentioned you will be starting in january, it'll be winter where you are, and you'll be wearing sweaters, pants, etc., so unless you're a stripper or you live in hawaii like me, hehe, don't worry about it. 100mg a day of 4ad will not hold back your athletic capabilities. The thing i'd be worrying about is gaining too much strength too fast and throwing off your shot.
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6. you can control the bloat with letro or arimidex, those are both anti-e's, but you will then cancel out the estrogen related sides, so that will cancel you the purpose of 4ad...you will not reap the benefits of the increase in the libido and combatting the lethargy.

like I mentioned above, live with the bloat. Anyone on this board will tell you, if you want extremely lean gains, AND don't mind lethargy or loss of libido, drop the 4ad, go with 1test/1,4. YOu will never be happier but thats if you can handle the lethary/libido issues.

Just read on t1pro, many users lose bf on t1pro in conjunction with a healthy diet. by you adding in the 1,4 you will only get even leaner gains than those on t1pro.

like i said, 4ad bloat is overhyped. you won't know what it is till you take it. its a bloat like creatine gives you.

7. Originally posted by mauibuilt
to tell you the truth, **** the bloat! you are overhyping the bloat. you are so lean already, we all put up with it, and you have a few %'s over most of us. looking at your height and weight, you'll enjoy the bloat.

once you start taking anti-e's, especially nolva or clomid, post cycle, you will lose all the bloat in a few days. If you take 1/2 the 4ad as you are taking 1test, and also adding 1,4 in the mix, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

My first transdermal cycle was SuperONe+....about 200mg 1test and 366mg 4ad a day! Thats 3.5 times more 4ad a day than you will be taking. you also mentioned you will be starting in january, it'll be winter where you are, and you'll be wearing sweaters, pants, etc., so unless you're a stripper or you live in hawaii like me, hehe, don't worry about it. 100mg a day of 4ad will not hold back your athletic capabilities. The thing i'd be worrying about is gaining too much strength too fast and throwing off your shot.
Maui-

ok, bloat is now not a problem, it just the way people describe it sounds like you gain 10-12 pounds of fat &amp; water, and playing basketball, that really isn't that good.

yeah, the shot thing won't be a problem, i am waiting till after april now to do the cycle, when the season is over anyways, and i am kinda a pass-first, bang point guard anyways, so that won't be much of problem, and i won't play in games this year, cause the starter coming back is tremendously good, pro-ball in 2 years, so that really doesn't matter.

wow, that is alot of 4 ad.

so, here is what i got thus far, i am going to do a 6 week cycle.

3 weeks post cycle recovery with nolva and clomid.&nbsp;

clomid will be dosed as follows...&nbsp;

day1&nbsp; 300mg

days2-11&nbsp; 100mg

days12-21&nbsp; 50 mg

nolva....

weeks 1-2&nbsp; 40 mg daily

weeks 2-4 20 mg daily

any suggestions or does that look right 2 you?

&nbsp;

NOW here is my major question you said don't worry about the bloat and i am not anymore, so would you choose stack 1 or stack 2, here they are.

1)nordiol/1,4 andro (diol)

and in either stack would you do the 1,4 andro orally or transdermally?

also should i be doing any cardio while on a cycle?

if not how long till the cycle is over should i wait to do it?

also, last question, i promise, how long after a cycle do you generally wait to cut

&nbsp;

maui-respectable member here, thanks for all your help...thanks alot.

8. as for the nolva and clomid, the dosages look correct, but being a PH cycle and moderate dosages, just choose one. Most users of gear usually choose one post cycle (clomid is usually the case) but use nolva to prevent gyno during the cycle, but rarely use both simultaneously PCT. IMO i'd choose clomid over nolva for PCT, but nolva over clomid for gyno prevention during cycle (you dont have to worry about gyno off this cycle at these dosages and cycle length).

As for the stacks, I would choose stack 2. You'll gain more strength and size. You won't know the sides of each compound until you try it right? So you might as well try the one everyone has better results from first (1test/4ad), where both stacks include 1,4 andro. I would also run the 1,4 andro transdermally. It's cheaper and more effective.

You can do cardio while on. Since you are trying to gain lean muscle I guess you could do cardio on "off" days from the weights. Others say do not do cardio while on, but since you are a basketball player, you don't have a choice really.

Most people would say DO NOT cut until post cycle therapy is completed. I personally would not cut until the amount of "off" time equals the amount of "on" time. So, in this case if you ran a cycle for 6 weeks, I would not cut until 6 weeks after you complete your cycle.

9. Originally posted by mauibuilt
as for the nolva and clomid, the dosages look correct, but being a PH cycle and moderate dosages, just choose one. Most users of gear usually choose one post cycle (clomid is usually the case) but use nolva to prevent gyno during the cycle, but rarely use both simultaneously PCT. IMO i'd choose clomid over nolva for PCT, but nolva over clomid for gyno prevention during cycle (you dont have to worry about gyno off this cycle at these dosages and cycle length).

As for the stacks, I would choose stack 2. You'll gain more strength and size. You won't know the sides of each compound until you try it right? So you might as well try the one everyone has better results from first (1test/4ad), where both stacks include 1,4 andro. I would also run the 1,4 andro transdermally. It's cheaper and more effective.

You can do cardio while on. Since you are trying to gain lean muscle I guess you could do cardio on "off" days from the weights. Others say do not do cardio while on, but since you are a basketball player, you don't have a choice really.

Most people would say DO NOT cut until post cycle therapy is completed. I personally would not cut until the amount of "off" time equals the amount of "on" time. So, in this case if you ran a cycle for 6 weeks, I would not cut until 6 weeks after you complete your cycle.
ok so here are the revisions that i am looking at...first off, probable start time will be sometime after april, maybe late march, expected beginning cycle weight will be about 180-190.

so i will defiantly be going with the 1-test/4AD/1,4 andro (diol) cycle now, as my first cycle, 200mg 1-test a day, 100mg 4AD a day, and 600mg 1,4 Andro (diol) a day, right so far??

as far as nolva and clomid, i will defiantly have both on hand, just in case gyno begins to appear, i have read that both would be effective PCT. cause i have read in a few places that both would be effective post-cycle.&nbsp; I will deffiantly go with the clomid dosing PCT. why don't you think that the two would work well in conjunction with one another?

PCT:

Clomid-

day1&nbsp; 300mg

days2-11&nbsp; 100mg

days12-21&nbsp; 50 mg

possible nolva depending on your opinion?

Training- i will be doing a&nbsp;4 day split with&nbsp; 2 cardio days.... mondays - chest &amp; abs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tuesdays - shoulders &amp; back&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; wednesdays - cardio&nbsp; &nbsp; thursday - biceps &amp; triceps&nbsp;&nbsp; friday - legs &amp; abs&nbsp; s&nbsp; aturday - cardio&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sunday - off&nbsp;

what do you think abotu that, or should i increase the volume any suggestion is welcomed.

should training be sustained the same through post-cycle therapy?&nbsp; also, i will be taking creatine, san v12, and protein, so i wait to take the v12 till post cycle therapy to try to retain my gains, or i should i just cycle it throught my cycle, that sounds funny, ha??&nbsp; i have also heard that people will sometimes cycle clen/t3 throught there cycle, how do you feel about that?

then 3 weeks after post cycle therapy go into a cutting cycle?

again thanks for your help, i know you don't have to do this, but it is greatly appreciated.

10. also, i was just messing around with my transdermal calculator, basically the same as curt2go's, and 2 get 200mg 1 test and 100mg 4AD a day, i would need 9.6 grams of 1-test, and 4.8 g of 4AD added to a 240mL bottle.&nbsp; that is approx. 2,5 squirts per day ( i will be using BDC T-Gel by the way)&nbsp; i am thinking it would be way easier just to get an oral syringe and take out 5mL (2.5 squirts) and apply half in the morning half at night as opposed to attempting to do half squirts, what do you think about that?

11. that is for a 48 day cycle

12. or should i go 42 days, exactly 6 weeks?

13. Originally posted by ckoch1722
so i will defiantly be going with the 1-test/4AD/1,4 andro (diol) cycle now, as my first cycle, 200mg 1-test a day, 100mg 4AD a day, and 600mg 1,4 Andro (diol) a day, right so far??
If you're doing an all transdermal cycle then in all likelihood you'll be doing 1,4 dione. BDC sold the diol version capped, and to my knowledge that was the sole source of 1,4 diol (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). The bulk hormone places that I checked (1fast400, kilosports, and beyondacentury) all carry 1,4 dione in bulk.

Don't fret, because there is a theory that the diol receptors are already saturated (might not in your low dosage of 4-AD) so the 1,4 dione works better because of available receptors.

~Todd

14. Originally posted by tatortodd

If you're doing an all transdermal cycle then in all likelihood you'll be doing 1,4 dione. BDC sold the diol version capped, and to my knowledge that was the sole source of 1,4 diol (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). The bulk hormone places that I checked (1fast400, kilosports, and beyondacentury) all carry 1,4 dione in bulk.

Don't fret, because there is a theory that the diol receptors are already saturated (might not in your low dosage of 4-AD) so the 1,4 dione works better because of available receptors.

~Todd
how about the aromatization of the dione version to estrogen is that a major side effect to the (dione) version?

15. yes, you are correct, it is the dione version. Correct me if I am wrong, the capped version was also a dione?

As for using nolva and clomid both PCT, you could, but you don't need it.

As for the creatine, I've read somewhere that PH/AAS work well in conjunction with taking creatine, so its your choice. v12 will not give you bloat so good decision on that creatine for your goals. If it were me personally, i'd take the V12 post cycle. Instead of taking the v12, save yourself the stomach and take a protein shake instead.

16. Originally posted by mauibuilt
yes, you are correct, it is the dione version. Correct me if I am wrong, the capped version was also a dione?

As for using nolva and clomid both PCT, you could, but you don't need it.

As for the creatine, I've read somewhere that PH/AAS work well in conjunction with taking creatine, so its your choice. v12 will not give you bloat so good decision on that creatine for your goals. If it were me personally, i'd take the V12 post cycle. Instead of taking the v12, save yourself the stomach and take a protein shake instead.
what about the aromatization of the (dione version) or is it insignificant in the whole scheme of the stack, what i mean is it even enought to nitice anything?

as for PCT, i will just go with clomid, for the 3 weeks, i might run the nolva for the first week, day 1 40mg/day, days 2-7 20 mg/day, just to be safe, but nothing enxtrenous, because my cycle length will be appr. 48 days. as for the clomid do you take one dose of that or do you split doses?&nbsp; what about nolva?

maui- i was thinking the same thing about the v-12, i think i am going to save it for post cycle, to retain my gains, also i think i will be using FL7 post cycle as well to limit fat gain off cycle, because my cals will still be high, what do you think aboiut that?

then, on cycle, will just be protein and a multi.

then, 6 weeks after PCT, i will go into my cutting cycle, if you want to talk abotu that also, just let meknow?

well thanks for all the help both you guys, you have seriously enlightened me in the subject of PH's.. i thank you...keep the thread going...

17. Originally posted by mauibuilt
Correct me if I am wrong, the capped version was also a dione?
BDC was selling the diol version (the only place I ever saw it). There are quite a few companies selling the dione version capped. Examples would be:
* 1fast400 has the dione under their own label
* many internet stores sell Molecular Nutrition's Boldione (1,4 dione).

Originally posted by ckoch1722
what about the aromatization of the (dione version) or is it insignificant in the whole scheme of the stack, what i mean is it even enought to nitice anything?
I can't put my finger on it, but I know I've read about aromatization being insignificant from Molecular Nutrition's Bill L (can't remember how to spell his last name). Do a search on here or bb.com, or you could go to Molecular Nutrition's website.

~Todd

18. From what I read a long while ago, the 1,4 dione version converts very well.

Don't worry about it, if everyones seeing good gains off of it and with little to estrogen related sides, listen to everyone else.

19. ok guys, well, i sat up all last night and did alot more research, and had a long conversation with civsi44, who is also looking to do the same kind of cycle, i want to do.

i was looking at legalgear.com's webpage and saw a products that they have that is 4g 1-test, 6g 4AD, 4g Nordiol, which is 133.3mg/day, 200mg/day, 133.3mg/day, respectively, and&nbsp;i thought this was pretty interesting, since this was&nbsp;3 of the 4 products that i was looking at using during my cycle, so i thought i would alter the formula a little.

i will use a 240mL T-Gel bottle, and add 6g 1-test, 3g,&nbsp;4AD, 6g Nordiol, which works out to 200mg/day, 100mg/day, 200mg/day, respectively?&nbsp; what do you guys think of this recipe?

Also, i think i will do a 4on-4off-4on with this stack, because it has the possiblitiy to be very lethagic, how do you guys feel about that?

also, would there be any advantages to adding either the (dione) or (diol) versions of 1,4 andro to this stack?&nbsp; btw i have found both versions, the dione in powder form and the diol in pill/capsule form.

&nbsp;

i think this could possibly be the best stack for me, but i am leaving this question to you guys, to rate the stack if you will, thank you, for all the help previously, and hopefully in the future...

&nbsp;

20. bump

21. Nordiol i think may be the only thing you're running short, the 1-test to 4-ad ration looks good for nice lean gains, but to be honest there really isn't a huge amount of info out about nordiol so you could be running a perfect amount or you could be running too little, hard to say.

As for the 1,4 diol versus dione, I'd go with what was cheaper Anyone seen a conversion comparison chart on these two? That'd help you make your mind on that bro.

22. By the way, that type of cycle has teh potential to shut you down pretty hard. Both 1-test and nandrolone (which nordiol converts to) and your dose of 4-ad is pretty low.

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