My superdrol gyno hypothesis

dice404

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i used to have pubertal gyno (just got it removed), that means a hard painful lump behind puffed up nips. needless to say, I am very gyno prone. before I had it removed, i ran 3 superdrol cycles, and the gyno actually got SMALLER while on the cycle. however, it did flare up after pct was finished (pct consisted of nolva, 6oxo, and diff cort control). So i dont think that gyno while on superdrol should be much of a concern. A friend of mine actually got some rebound gyno after his second cycle of superdrol (he ran the same pct as me). he noticed that his gyno shruk as well while on his next cycle of superdrol, and then rebounded after pct,so this reaction was not only limited to myself.

This got me thinking, superdrol is essentially methyl masteron, and masteron has been shown to have some antiestrogenic properties. now, yes, the 17aa does change the reaction the body has to the chemical, but i believe that this characteristic has remained. Anyone ever notice how they lose a lot of water after starting a superdrol cycle? (absence of this effect and consequently bloating may be due to an improperly synthesized clone, made from anadrol, and may still may contain some anadrol) This leads me to belive that superdrol has some anti-estrogenic properties as well. As far a increased prolactin, i believe this is a combination of its anti-estrogenic properties (supression of natty test plus an anti-estrogen leads to low estrogen. supressing E2 too much causes prolactin to rise) and superdrol's similarities to anadrol. Some people forget that superdrol is not simply methyl masteron, but also a "super saturated anadrol" as the original write up suggests. This means that instead of the 2a-hydroxymethylene that anadrol posess, superdrol (like masteron) has a 2a-methyl group. This gives superdrol some characteristics similar to anadrol, in my belief, namely the abillity to directly stimulate progesterone receptors. This combination leads to the prolactin induced sides.

Another thing to consider is the use of an AI in conjunction with a serm. think about it, when there is little estrogen present in the body, there is little need to further supress it in pct, like thesinner states, the object of pct(which causes hpta rebound) is not to iradicate estrogen, but control it. For superdrol, a serm alone is enough to achieve this. the prolonged suppression of estrogen only leads to increased prolactin and a greater chance for rebound gyno due to estrogen rebound after pct.

This is just a thought, but if anyone else has any input or sees I made a mistake, please say so
 
MrDiode

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it does seem that most of the people making superdrol-related gyno claims (especially 'delayed' gyno) are doing so while using an AI in addition to a SERM.

interesting.
 

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Another thing to consider is the use of an AI in conjunction with a serm. think about it, when there is little estrogen present in the body, there is little need to further supress it in pct, like thesinner states, the object of pct(which causes hpta rebound) is not to iradicate estrogen, but control it. For superdrol, a serm alone is enough to achieve this. the prolonged suppression of estrogen only leads to increased prolactin and a greater chance for rebound gyno due to estrogen rebound after pct.

This is just a thought, but if anyone else has any input or sees I made a mistake, please say so
Reps!! The information you are representing seems to be well reasearched and thought out. Although there have been many speculations on what exactly causes the rebound. Many believe it is from adding in a Ai or ATD which prolongs the rebound till your body regulates back to its normal levels.The comes the estro rebound which cause gyno. You should post a link to this thread into the superdrol gyno thread that was just recently started to get some feedback from the guys in there.
 
Brian5225

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hmm... That is a good thought... I thought I had delayed SD gyno until I looked at a video of me a few years back and I always had pubertal gyno, so i had just gotten paranoid... hmm...
 
pantera101

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Are their any test boosters out there that dont increase test by killing your estrogen?Some say they control estrogen like DTh,but it seems they all kill estrogen,which in turn makes you produce test to be converted to estrogen.Is this what Dth does?
 

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The hard part of the equation is that in endocrinology, what is true for one is not necessarily true for another. Every person has a different hormonal balance, and each person reacts differently to their own hormones. For example, I have pretty high test but zero body hair above the waist (armpits aside), and almost no facial hair...dht conversion? receptor sensitivity? Who knows...not me? That being said, I think one can learn a ton about their "set up" and your hypothesis is probably very legitimate as far as your own system goes.
 

dice404

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Are their any test boosters out there that dont increase test by killing your estrogen?Some say they control estrogen like DTh,but it seems they all kill estrogen,which in turn makes you produce test to be converted to estrogen.Is this what Dth does?
Well DTH does have DIM in it, which is a mild AI and from the ingredient list, does not seem to be the main mechanism of testoterone boosting. i think supps like drive and phyto test are the way to go if trying to avoid AIs (although I have yet to try these).
 

dice404

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The hard part of the equation is that in endocrinology, what is true for one is not necessarily true for another. Every person has a different hormonal balance, and each person reacts differently to their own hormones. For example, I have pretty high test but zero body hair above the waist (armpits aside), and almost no facial hair...dht conversion? receptor sensitivity? Who knows...not me? That being said, I think one can learn a ton about their "set up" and your hypothesis is probably very legitimate as far as your own system goes.
That is a very good point. I think that may even be part of what makes endocrinology so interesting to me.
 
poopypants

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this is a grat lil post and kinda the conclusion I have come to as well. I got gyno right after my very first sd cycles pct, but after it diminished with another "pct/nha stack" I ran it again with phera plex I was good for many months after till I ran another cycle with a lacking pct.

I dont think an AI should be used in a SD pct either. I DO think however that taking an AI AFTER PCT once test levels are re-established and its time for a break in between would be a great idea.

Think about it, your now left with higher test levels again and dropping the est blocking supps youve been taking now for almost 8 weeks (if sd really has any anti est properties) at that point your circulating est has the chance to interact with the unblocked receptors as well as the fact your new higher test is susceptable to aromatase which would further increase an est rebound. I think taking a low dose AI either daily or a normal dose AI EOD(preferably a suicidal AI) would be a good Idea at this point in order to minimize an influx in est and not altogether diminish est that can be helpful to health, overall gains and libido.

JMO

good hypothosis again.
 
pantera101

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Well DTH does have DIM in it, which is a mild AI and from the ingredient list, does not seem to be the main mechanism of testoterone boosting. i think supps like drive and phyto test are the way to go if trying to avoid AIs (although I have yet to try these).
I heard a guy say his best pct consisted of nolva and drive only.He said he had blood test to back it up too.It was on this site,but i don't remember who or where it was.
 
quigs

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Another thing to consider is the use of an AI in conjunction with a serm. think about it, when there is little estrogen present in the body, there is little need to further supress it in pct, like thesinner states, the object of pct(which causes hpta rebound) is not to iradicate estrogen, but control it. For superdrol, a serm alone is enough to achieve this. the prolonged suppression of estrogen only leads to increased prolactin and a greater chance for rebound gyno due to estrogen rebound after pct.

This is just a thought, but if anyone else has any input or sees I made a mistake, please say so
You hit the nail on the head here. This, IMO is the reason why people get "rebound" gyno from superdrol. Note: we're talking actual gyno and not just chest fat.

When using a SERM in conjunction with an AI, you really run the risk of a pretty big estrogen rebound...especially if you do not taper your AI dosages. This can lead to many of the gyno experiences that users have reported.

I think that many people on these boards way over-do their PCT regimen in terms of dosages and sheer number of drugs used. Its another case where more is not always better, and in some cases may actually be worse.
 
poopypants

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I heard a guy say his best pct consisted of nolva and drive only.He said he had blood test to back it up too.It was on this site,but i don't remember who or where it was.
actually that was me.

It wasnt nolva though it was toremifene. and the blood can be found at the beginning of my Activate extreme tester log.

It was all I took after a 6 week Epi and Dbol cycle. pretty impressive after 4 weeks I had higher range test levels.
 
quigs

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I heard a guy say his best pct consisted of nolva and drive only.He said he had blood test to back it up too.It was on this site,but i don't remember who or where it was.
Honestly, a SERM is plenty for restoring HTPA function. Take drive and stuff if they make you feel better, but I wouldn't rely on them as a means of restoring testosterone production.

Clomid, nolva, etc are very effective as LH mimetics.
 
pantera101

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Honestly, a SERM is plenty for restoring HTPA function. Take drive and stuff if they make you feel better, but I wouldn't rely on them as a means of restoring testosterone production.

Clomid, nolva, etc are very effective as LH mimetics.
Thanks poopypants.I already have nolva quigs.I will prob use some drive too,it does make me feel better.I plan on continuing running it after the nolva too.Have you,or others, used a serm only before?
 
poopypants

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Thanks poopypants.I already have nolva quigs.I will prob use some drive too,it does make me feel better.I plan on continuing running it after the nolva too.Have you,or others, used a serm only before?
well i dunno wether or not the Drive is the major contributor to raise i LH BUT I do know that I practically notice zero difference from being on and being in PCT when I added Drive. I have a few friends that Ive suggested Drive to for PCT as well and some say the same thing and one guy said he almost felt bettor on PCT then his trenadrol cycle.
 
quigs

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Thanks poopypants.I already have nolva quigs.I will prob use some drive too,it does make me feel better.I plan on continuing running it after the nolva too.Have you,or others, used a serm only before?
Yes. I routinely use only nolva. I messed around using other combinations of supplements, SERM, etc and have found that I recover just as well using only nolvadex. Also, I've had one experience where I began to manifest some gyno symptoms (very sensitive nipple, hard lump of breast tissue, etc) while on a Dbol cycle. A couple of days on nolva relieved symptoms quite nicely.

Some people really seem to like Drive and RPM. I've personally yet to try Drive but I was not an RPM fan. Honestly, it just made me feel like crap.
 
quigs

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well i dunno wether or not the Drive is the major contributor to raise i LH BUT I do know that I practically notice zero difference from being on and being in PCT when I added Drive. I have a few friends that Ive suggested Drive to for PCT as well and some say the same thing and one guy said he almost felt bettor on PCT then his trenadrol cycle.
I'm not surprised. Trenadrol is not really a "feel good" hormone. Most users really seem to like the feel of Drive. Its only logical that they'd feel pretty good during PCT.

Honestly, only once in my experience did I feel significantly worse during my PCT than on cycle. I mean I don't get the same aggression and stamina that I do while on an androgen, but I don't feel much different than when I'm off cycle months away from any androgen usage.
 

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But to the OP, anadrol has generally been accepted now (due to studies) that it does not stimulate the progesterone receptor but has direct estrogenic qualities without aromatising.
 
poopypants

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So, would running DTH inversely to nolva, then continuing the DTH for 4 weeks AFTER PCT and tapering its dose back down be a good idea? Sorry for the run-on sentence there, lol. OR would it be safer to just run nolva standalone THEN get something like DTH and use it for a month after PCT when you're hormones are normalized again? My plan for the longest time, has been my first option with the inverse doses. It seems like the best way to avoid an estrogen rebound. I have a few things for prolactin, so i've got that covered. Any thoughts guys?
no I wouldnt use DTH as my base AI. I would gt a straight up AI. Get some rebound (ATD), rebound reloaded, Hyperdrol X2 (6bromo), 6 oxo extreme, or formestane. A suicidal AI and I would only dose it everyother day at a normal dose just to keep Estrogen in check without absolutely killing it off..... you may not even have to dose eod depending on how fast the aromatase can resynthisize, but we will know after Dsade runs his study withhis new formastane product. I think DTH is a great test booster but thats not the goal here. youve already boosted your test after PCT and are just trying to prevent the dreaded SD est rebound....

Or you could simply not take SD and take something else less likely to do give sides.... but I still would run a similar protocol just for cycles in general myself, but Im a bit eccentric when it comes to my supplementing.
 

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What about adding cabergoline to the PCT to do a preemptive strike against gyno on the prolactin front?
 
ValorOfOne

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Interesting. When I ran Superdrol(Original)..

I used Rebound XT, Retain 2, and Advanced PCT.

I was uneducated when it came to PCT's, but I made the purchases after a 10 second read on what they did.

Regardless, after reading the above.. I did actually taper down my Rebound.. I ran the Retain straight. And ran the Advanced PCT straight. Also, I would like to add that I was never "Shut Down" By Superdrol. Which I found very strange, I don't believe I had any "Shrinkage".. Just backpumps and a bit of depression/headaches.

Although, it was stupid to take any PH/PS without completely knowing what I was doing.. I have managed to avoid any Gyno, or rebound Gyno.

EDIT.

I'm sure you're interested. I was about 205 when I ran SD. I went up to a Max of 30 MG E/D.
 
pantera101

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I ran mass tabs and a phera/super combo with no serm,and had no gyno or signs.I think some are more prone to it than others.I will always use a serm from now on,and atleast have it on hand,for weaker cycles,just in case.Might even use it anyways.
 

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What about ramping up AI during PCT? I can see the logistics behind after PCT however...

What about running a irreversible acting SERM (Letro) and a reversible acting SERM (Tomax) in conjunction with each other?
 
poopypants

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I dunno bout doubling up the serms but I do however suggest taking a ramping upwards dose of AI through most PCT's and then just doing the maintainance PCT dose like I suggested above.... maybe not though for things like SD and Epi that (might)have est suppressing effects.
 

maynehood171

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It's only because I've seen statements that say ramping up Letro to combat the free est. that gets developed over time from taking a SERM like Nolva...(I think it was free est. or receptors that becomes an abundance from something like Nolva...damn wish I could remember exactly)
 
poopypants

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It's only because I've seen statements that say ramping up Letro to combat the free est. that gets developed over time from taking a SERM like Nolva...(I think it was free est. or receptors that becomes an abundance from something like Nolva...damn wish I could remember exactly)
That would most liekly be better taken care of with a non reversable(suicidal) AI IMO. Thus the inverse dosing of the SERM and AI so many suggest.
 
SIDUDE

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Gyno Issues

I have not run a cycle in 4 years, when I did my last cycle all these new additives were not around, I am perparing a cycle of Epistane and I would like to include Superdrol, and I am conserned about getting Gyno as my last cycle left me with a nasty case, and I ran a through PCT.

From what I have read Epistane itself is an estrogen inhibitor, their for during cycle Gyno should not be an issue, however post cycle the this can cause problems. has anybody tried Sustain Alpha, Toco-8 and EndoAmp? Any suggestions are welcome.

My stats: 46 YO, 180Lbs, 14% BF
 
poopypants

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I have not run a cycle in 4 years, when I did my last cycle all these new additives were not around, I am perparing a cycle of Epistane and I would like to include Superdrol, and I am conserned about getting Gyno as my last cycle left me with a nasty case, and I ran a through PCT.

From what I have read Epistane itself is an estrogen inhibitor, their for during cycle Gyno should not be an issue, however post cycle the this can cause problems. has anybody tried Sustain Alpha, Toco-8 and EndoAmp? Any suggestions are welcome.

My stats: 46 YO, 180Lbs, 14% BF
Are you familiar with what a SERM is sir? I would look into picking one up if I were you in order to really be safe for your PCT.

I think sustain Alpha would be a GREAT addition to your SERM based PCT and would help you recover VERY quickly.

Just so you know, both Epi and Superdrol can give some killer joint pain not to mention back pumps/cramps.... so taking them together, although enticing, would probably create some crazy sides that wouldnt make the cycle even worth it.

If you havnt cycled in 4 years you will respond to either ran solo VERY well since they are both major mass and strength builders and be just as pleased, if not more so, then if you were to run them together since your sides will be less and your gains wont be much less. Save the other for a later cycle. This is just my opinion, Id give Epi a try before superdrol since its basically side free when ran correctly and very easy to recover from and you just feel great on it. Check my log below in my signature link, skip to page 14 half way down for a summery post and Im sure youll see why I suggest this compound :thumbsup:
 
SIDUDE

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Are you familiar with what a SERM is sir? I would look into picking one up if I were you in order to really be safe for your PCT.

I think sustain Alpha would be a GREAT addition to your SERM based PCT and would help you recover VERY quickly.

Just so you know, both Epi and Superdrol can give some killer joint pain not to mention back pumps/cramps.... so taking them together, although enticing, would probably create some crazy sides that wouldnt make the cycle even worth it.

If you havnt cycled in 4 years you will respond to either ran solo VERY well since they are both major mass and strength builders and be just as pleased, if not more so, then if you were to run them together since your sides will be less and your gains wont be much less. Save the other for a later cycle. This is just my opinion, Id give Epi a try before superdrol since its basically side free when ran correctly and very easy to recover from and you just feel great on it. Check my log below in my signature link, skip to page 14 half way down for a summery post and Im sure youll see why I suggest this compound :thumbsup:
OK this term SERM is it an acronym? I see it in a Varity of threads and it is referenced to Colmid, Novadex and other AI's, and yes I have used them, some sides of Gyno are still present even after usage.

I ordered the Epi, so I will hold off on the Superdrol.
 
poopypants

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OK this term SERM is it an acronym? I see it in a Varity of threads and it is referenced to Colmid, Novadex and other AI's, and yes I have used them, some sides of Gyno are still present even after usage.

I ordered the Epi, so I will hold off on the Superdrol.
Yes, look into toremifene(citrate) its whats worked the best for me.

In all honesty I got more gyno suppresion with Epi then I ever di with nolva. ATD works out pretty damn good too which is a suicidal AI.
 
SIDUDE

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Yes, look into toremifene(citrate) its whats worked the best for me.

In all honesty I got more gyno suppresion with Epi then I ever di with nolva. ATD works out pretty damn good too which is a suicidal AI.
What does Suicial refer to?
 
poopypants

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What does Suicial refer to?
It means it permanently binds to the aromatase rendering it useless or "dead". Other AI's will bond to the aromatase for a given period of time then release it again to be usefull in the body later wich can be conter prodctive IMO. I think a constant dose of a reg AI would need to be taken when an occasional dose of a suicidal AI can be taken with similar effects.

There will soon be some studies done and made available to us regarding this factor that will be of great use to us in learing how aromatase works in the body and allowing us to more accurately dose these compounds.
 
neoborn

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Good posts Poopy! :goodpost:


Most Importantly!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.


1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem

Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - Good reviews or I have used: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - Good reviews or have used the following: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT


3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: @@@ Gyno Questions - Please Read This First @@@ - Bodybuilding.com Forums

4. Real Gynomastia Before & After's:


5. Love your Liver!
 
dkkon1

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It seems like this post ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is on every thread, just goes to show you that no one is willing to do research for them selves but rely on poor neoborn to continually post this.
 
neoborn

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It seems like this post ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is on every thread, just goes to show you that no one is willing to do research for them selves but rely on poor neoborn to continually post this.
As much as I like DD's, someones gotta help teh noobz :)

Keyword:

:gotsearch
1. Go to "Search"
2. Click on "Advanced Search"
3. Enter your search terms that you want to find threads on
4. Change the drop down to "Titles Only"
5. Click "Go"

You can use this method to find anything on these forums. You will be surprised how many people have discussed this topic before.
 
SIDUDE

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It means it permanently binds to the aromatase rendering it useless or "dead". Other AI's will bond to the aromatase for a given period of time then release it again to be usefull in the body later wich can be conter prodctive IMO. I think a constant dose of a reg AI would need to be taken when an occasional dose of a suicidal AI can be taken with similar effects.

There will soon be some studies done and made available to us regarding this factor that will be of great use to us in learing how aromatase works in the body and allowing us to more accurately dose these compounds.
Thanks Bro good info!
 

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