[hockeyroom28]

First of all, like the title says, I have no research to back this up. To be honest, I'm not even sure if I EVER had Gyno. Here is a thought about Delayed Gyno...

Post cycle therapy: Aromasin (AI) and Clomid (SERM)

Post cycle therapy was successful in terms of test. atrophy going away. Now from my research on the boards, AI = kills all estrogen and SERM = blocks estrogen from receptors. Now, I have been reading a lot about Rebound Gyno or Delayed Gyno.

So I thought about why it is delayed in the first place? If the PH/PS is the cause, why would some develop "Delayed Gyno" weeks or even months after the PH has long cleared the body?

So...I think that the combination of a SERM and an AI is too much for the body to handle. This combination both kills all estrogen in the body along with blocking any estrogen (if there is any left) from binding with the receptors (specifically in the breast for gyno). But, for the body, this is too great of a reaction which causes the Rebound. The Rebound can only occur after the full PH cycle (3-4 weeks on average), the complete PCT (4 weeks), and enough time for estrogen to be produced and recepted again (days or weeks?).

Therefore, the Delayed Gyno is really just normal estrogen being reintroduced into the body. The problem is normal estrogen levels are too high for the body after it has been used to extreme estrogen repression along with receptor blocking. This causes too much of a shock to the body and causes the Rebound (Delayed) Gyno.

So what I'm really saying is, an AI + SERM may be more than the body needs and more than it can handle in terms of estrogen rebound.

Sorry if this is obvious, just had a thought about it. What do you guys think?

[ImJ2x]

I absolutely agree -- it's pretty much what I've been thinking. I think that's why it's so prevalent with Superdrol. Because (on top of everything you just said) Superdrol is very dry, maybe even a bit of an AI itself. And then people follow their dry SD cycle with the typical overkill PCT, completely annihilating all semblance of estrogen. Then your body, in it's never-ending quest for homeostasis, kicks into e-production overdrive, flooding your now-starving receptors with gobs of estrogen. And BAM -- you're a lady. Nice rack.
I think the best solution is to go easy on the PCT, even if it takes longer to recover "the boys." Maybe the newer OTC products (Anabolic Innovations PCS and Ergo's 6oxoExtreme) might actually be wiser choices for PCT than the typical overdosed SERM/AI combo. Or maybe use the SERM/AI, but at more reasonable (lower) doses, and both tapered down. Just thinking out loud...

[TheAnimalG]

I don't know if I can buy that when it comes to delayed gyno several months after the end of PCT. That may be slight gyno that went unnoticed during the cycle (perhaps because a very dry agent was used), and slight water weight + fat gain after the cycle.... and probably not a little gyno paranoia is involved.

Now, if the gyno occurs shortly after the END of the PCT, then it is probably the user coming off of a heavy PCT (SERM+AI) far too quickly. Especially when using very potent AIs such as ATD, you need to come off of those very very gradually.

The only problem I have with the SERM + AI PCT's is the inverse taper concept that is most commonly used. My first two PCT's were SERM only and I now fill that I need to run an AI as well because I feel I may be gyno prone, however the idea of increasing your AI dose bothers me. I have always heard of rebound effects from AI's and the need to taper them very slowly and even possibly follow up with a low dosed SERM (when ran separate from a cycle). So my idea is that if an AI can have a rebound effect when used not in a PCT, wouldn't this be true also when being used in PCT. I don't like the idea of ramping the dose of the AI upward throughout PCT and then suddenly seizing use. So not only is estrogen no longer being killed (to a large degree because of the high AI dose), but it also isn't being blocked.

So in my mind it would make sense to run both a SERM and AI, but taper both down and then possibly continue the SERM for another week or two after seizing the use of the AI to avoid the possible rebound effects of discontinuing the AI.

So here is a theoretical PCT

Week 1: 50 mg Nolva - 75 mg Rebound XT
Week 2: 40 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 3: 30 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 4: 20 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 5: 20 mg Nolva
Week 6: 10 mg Nolva

**Nolva probably isn't the best choice for a 6 week PCT because of its liver toxicity and possible sides. Torem would probably be a better choice, but just for illustrative reasons Nolva works to show my idea.

If my reasoning isn't sound please let me know. Comments and thoughts welcomed. I am by no means an expert. Just thinking out loud.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by MovinWeight

The only problem I have with the SERM + AI PCT's is the inverse taper concept that is most commonly used. My first two PCT's were SERM only and I now fill that I need to run an AI as well because I feel I may be gyno prone, however the idea of increasing your AI dose bothers me. I have always heard of rebound effects from AI's and the need to taper them very slowly and even possibly follow up with a low dosed SERM (when ran separate from a cycle). So my idea is that if an AI can have a rebound effect when used not in a PCT, wouldn't this be true also when being used in PCT. I don't like the idea of ramping the dose of the AI upward throughout PCT and then suddenly seizing use. So not only is estrogen no longer being killed (to a large degree because of the high AI dose), but it also isn't being blocked.

So in my mind it would make sense to run both a SERM and AI, but taper both down and then possibly continue the SERM for another week or two after seizing the use of the AI to avoid the possible rebound effects of discontinuing the AI.

So here is a theoretical PCT

Week 1: 50 mg Nolva - 75 mg Rebound XT
Week 2: 40 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 3: 30 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 4: 20 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 5: 20 mg Nolva
Week 6: 10 mg Nolva

**Nolva probably isn't the best choice for a 6 week PCT because of its liver toxicity and possible sides. Torem would probably be a better choice, but just for illustrative reasons Nolva works to show my idea.

If my reasoning isn't sound please let me know. Comments and thoughts welcomed. I am by no means an expert. Just thinking out loud.

Don't know about all these theories, in general, because I don't have any SERM experience. But I will add that it doesn't make sense to start with a high dose of an AI immediately post-cycle because testosterone is suppressed and therefore there is nothing (or very little) to aromatize. That makes an AI useless. Once HPTA function is somewhat restored, then an AI becomes useful. Obviously your AI dosage and timing is dependent on your level of suppression.

Originally Posted by EctoPower

Don't know about all these theories, in general, because I don't have any SERM experience. But I will add that it doesn't make sense to start with a high dose of an AI immediately post-cycle because testosterone is suppressed and therefore there is nothing (or very little) to aromatize. That makes an AI useless. Once HPTA function is somewhat restored, then an AI becomes useful. Obviously your AI dosage and timing is dependent on your level of suppression.

Good point. How about a low dosed AI throughout the PCT then instead of necessarily ramping up or maybe ramping up slightly and then ramping back down.

Week 1: 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 2: 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 3: 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 4: 25 mg Rebound XT

or

Week 1: 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 2: 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 3: 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 4: 25 mg Rebound XT

[aquanutz]

Having run SD cycles both ways I actually agree with your thoughts. I am currently on my PCT of Annoblic Innovations Post Cycle Support and Alpha Drive that I frontloaded with 2 weeks of straight Trans-Resveratrol (600mg 100%) and IC-3 (50mg) everyday for two weeks. Now I'm running PCS and Alpha Drive for another 4 weeks. My cycle was 3 weeks at 10mg. So, 3 week baby cycle and what will be a 6 week OTC PCT.

I originally thought that it might be overkill and it still may be, but there are only benefits of running Trans-Res and from what I've ready, no (bad) sides. Right now I feel like I have to put a shoe on my nuts because they are huuuuuge and I fear they will start dragging on the floor any day.

I got bloodwork last week and everything came back just fine, don't have my numbers because I was in a rush when the doc's office called, just wanted them to tell me if I needed to come in because something was out of wack.

[EasyEJL]

I'm still not too sure about the whole idea of using an AI in conjunction with a SERM. the serm is already stopping the estrogen from binding with receptors where it will make a difference. I could see maybe like this, to cover the area when the serm is being finished.

Week 1: 40 mg Nolva
Week 2: 30 mg Nolva
Week 3: 20 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 4: 10 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 5: 0 mg Nolva - 75 mg Rebound XT
Week 6: 0 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 7: 0 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 8: 0 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT

but I think for the most part that the use of the AI is overrated for PCT if a serm is used. totally different story without a serm tho

Originally Posted by aquanutz

Having run SD cycles both ways I actually agree with your thoughts. I am currently on my PCT of Annoblic Innovations Post Cycle Support and Alpha Drive that I frontloaded with 2 weeks of straight Trans-Resveratrol (600mg 100%) and IC-3 (50mg) everyday for two weeks. Now I'm running PCS and Alpha Drive for another 4 weeks. My cycle was 3 weeks at 10mg. So, 3 week baby cycle and what will be a 6 week OTC PCT.

I originally thought that it might be overkill and it still may be, but there are only benefits of running Trans-Res and from what I've ready, no (bad) sides. Right now I feel like I have to put a shoe on my nuts because they are huuuuuge and I fear they will start dragging on the floor any day.

I got bloodwork last week and everything came back just fine, don't have my numbers because I was in a rush when the doc's office called, just wanted them to tell me if I needed to come in because something was out of wack.

That's good to hear. How did 3 weeks at 10 mg treat you? What were your gains like? Just interested because I'm interested in running a shorter, lower dosed SD cycle.

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

I'm still not too sure about the whole idea of using an AI in conjunction with a SERM. the serm is already stopping the estrogen from binding with receptors where it will make a difference. I could see maybe like this, to cover the area when the serm is being finished.

Week 1: 40 mg Nolva
Week 2: 30 mg Nolva
Week 3: 20 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 4: 10 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 5: 0 mg Nolva - 75 mg Rebound XT
Week 6: 0 mg Nolva - 50 mg Rebound XT
Week 7: 0 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT
Week 8: 0 mg Nolva - 25 mg Rebound XT

but I think for the most part that the use of the AI is overrated for PCT if a serm is used. totally different story without a serm tho

That could work too. I'm interested to see what others say. Upon second thoughts I don't see a need for high dosed AI at the beginning of PCT, because like you said estrogen is already being blocked, so it seems like overkill to completely eliminate it. My biggest concern with the normal inverse taper is that your going to experience an estrogen rebound once you cease the SERM and AI, because all of a sudden you aren't killing estrogen, nor are you blocking it. That's why I like the idea of running one longer than the other, in my eyes the SERM and in your eyes the AI.

[EasyEJL]

I really think a 6 week nolva only at something like 20/20/10/10/10/10 is probably enough for most things. more doesn't necessarily do any good

[aquanutz]

Originally Posted by MovinWeight

That's good to hear. How did 3 weeks at 10 mg treat you? What were your gains like? Just interested because I'm interested in running a shorter, lower dosed SD cycle.

It was terrific. Went from 187lbs to about 202lbs while on cycle and right now I'm sitting at about 198lbs average. Everyday it's between 196lbs and 200lbs depending on my water intake the night before.

I think I just respond very, very well to SD. I did a four week cycle at high dosages (20mg) stacked with 11OXO and it was about the same as this 10mg cycle. I'll never do any 4 weekers at high dosages again. No need to put any un-needed stress on my system.

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

I really think a 6 week nolva only at something like 20/20/10/10/10/10 is probably enough for most things. more doesn't necessarily do any good

Probably. I seem to remember the guy who owns PP, I think his name was Eric saying something along the lines of what your saying. How everyone severely overdoses their SERMs and how a much smaller dose is all that is needed.

[EasyEJL]

yeah, I mean i'm big on megadosing (2g of resveratrol a day, 30g of fish oil, etc) but they used nolva at 20mg/day for fertility purposes in sterile men. granted, you want fast effect, but more places strain on the system too, and you are trying to avoid strain at that beginning of PCT so its easier for your body to return to equilibrium

[Ziquor]

There's a doctor on LB forum that back's this theory. I was researching this quite a bit a while back. It seems most of the delayed gyno cases I seen involved ATD in some way along with a highly supressive PH/PS (Super). Seems to me supressing estro too long = bad rebound (delayed gyno).

[bassgod272]

I think that the delayed gyno issue should be on "Unsolved Mysteries."