Need a little help or I might jump off the prohormone bandwagon....(long!)

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    Need a little help or I might jump off the prohormone bandwagon....(long!)


    Hey, this is a GREAT forum you guys have...lots of knowledgeable folks.

    I'm in my mid/late 30's and I've been lifting weights on and off for about 15 years. I believe I've made a lot of progress the last two years after getting back into it after some time off....in fact, I've probably made more progress than I would have expected. I'm about 5'10" and about 190 at 10% bf--and this is hydrostatically weighed. I think most people tend to underestimate, but I think hydro is pretty legit.

    I guess I don't have any problems gaining or losing weight at all....but I'm at the point where when I gain weight, it's hard to gain muscle once I get over 185-190. I just tend to put on fat. When I get much below that, I can still lose weight but it tends not to reduce my bf% much because I start losing lean weight.

    In order to get a little bit of help, about six weeks ago, I started a cycle of 1-test. Try not to laugh, but I selected Nutrex 1-TU. I'm here to tell you, that product might as well have been a sugar pill. I did a three week cycle of 300mg per day. I ate a very slightly hypercaloric diet, in part because I wanted to see what the prohormone would do....I already know what my diet is going to do or not do. Well, I gained a whopping 2 pounds in a three week cycle with NO change in body fat.

    In other words, it had no effect at all. I also had no sides at all, other than a mild depression, which might have just been because of the money I was wasting!

    Let me just say right now that what most people call "research" these days consists of surfing around to various message boards and gathering up the anecdotal evidence that supports their theories and discarding the anecdotal evidence that doesn't support what they want to hear! That's not research.

    The more true research I have done, the less I find I believe in the efficacy of prohormones. The fact of the matter is that there really aren't any decent, peer-reviewed double-blind studies on human subjects. I mean, you can research blood serum levels all you want, but there are STILL a lot of steps between elevated blood serum levels and the training effects WE all want; namely muscle mass additions and/or better body composition.

    The studies that I have found basically indicate that oral prohormones just don't work. Period. But I can't find ANYTHING on transdermals. Nothing.

    That's where you guys come in.

    I'm still trying to decide whether or not I even believe in this stuff. I'm not totally convinced that prohormones aren't just the next in a great line of supplement scams. But I believe that if ANYbody can help me sift through the deceit and find a good product and help me weigh the benefits, it's the fellas here.

    I think I'd like to try ONE more cycle before I give up this. I'm also thinking that I should stack some 4-AD. Here is what I'm thinking in terms of options:

    1) BDC's T-1 Pro. Not much difference to shake a stick at between this and LGP's version, I suppose. Either one would be great.

    3) Super One+

    2) Ergo's 1-AD (and 4-AD). I know, 1-AD is an oral, but the anecdotal evidence in its favor is overwhelming. The only reason I chose 1-TU in the first place was that I've heard 1-AD is awfully hard on the guts. I'm a little concerned about transdermals, quite honestly.

    Now some questions. If they are too stupid, go ahead and flame away:

    1) I'm not completelely stupid about dosing, but tell me if this is correct. If I did 1-AD at 600mg per day, that would be 4200mg per week. I've read that 1-AD survives oral ingestion at around 16%, so I should get 672 mg per week of the hormone? Is that correct? Then with T-1 Pro at 1 squirt twice per day, BDC says I would absorb 467mg of 1-test per week? (that's in the dosing sticky)

    Is that an apples to apples comparison? If so, it looks like I'd get more 1-test with 1-AD....of course, at a higher cost, I understand. But depending on some of these other questions, I might be willing to pay more.

    2) Did I read correctly that it would take 15 minutes of dry time after application BEFORE I could put on clothes? If so, that's literally 30 minutes per day of walking around nekkid and swinging. My morning schedule is tight already. If I've really got to wait 15 minutes to get dressed, the muscle gains BETTER be worth it! If I'm spending 30 minutes per day just waiting for it to dry, it's probably actually worth the additional cost for an oral....again IF AND ONLY IF my comparison above is truly apples to apples.

    3) Do I really have to wear rubber gloves to apply a transdermal?

    4) What is the difference between Avant's gel and BDC's gel? Is there a difference in terms of ease of application or drying time?

    Sorry so long....

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    1) in my opinion transdermal is the way to go for serious muscle gains I have used both and the trans gained me more. In defense of PHs they do work. You will see sides but you will also see muscle if your diet and training are in order. its no different then steroids, it snot a crutch its a tool you need to give it the materiel to build with if you want to get bigger. Theres a guy over on avavnt who ate significantly below maintenence and still gained 8 pounds on SO+ so they are fairly potent. Enough anectdotal evidence is better than adouble blind studyt because you get to make the call yourself without the bias of the researcher coming in to play. Ive never seen evidence that the sun will rise tommorow but Im pretty damn sure it will since every day of my life it has.

    2) yes it takes time to dry, Wake up afew minute earlier or take a quicker shower you can deal with it for 4-8 weeks in excahnge for 5-15 lbs of extra muscle mass.

    3) I never do

    4) no ral difference in easo ther than avants requires more squirts since each squirt is a lower volume. They dry about the same though BDCs feels more oily for longer, which is good for absorption but kinda nasty. I deal with it som dont like it/

    thirdly with your 1 - tu experience, you only gave it 3 weeks and you did gain 2 lbs with no bf gain usually you can gain about 1 lb per week naturally but probably 1/3 to 1/2 of that will be fat so you made some gains and the androgens did something. the science behind ethergels is sound even Chemo said so at one point. you may have needed to take more or for longer but I think that even with 2 lbs you did do something to your body.

    Go transdermal or high dose 1 ad your choice to fit YOUR lifestyle.Both work and I feel confident in saying you will be plaesantly impressed.
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    bump that...great answers
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    Originally posted by maggmaster
    Theres a guy over on avavnt who ate significantly below maintenence and still gained 8 pounds on SO+ so they are fairly potent.
    Yeah, see, the 1-TU did not do ANYTHING like that for me at all.

    Enough anectdotal evidence is better than adouble blind studyt because you get to make the call yourself without the bias of the researcher coming in to play. Ive never seen evidence that the sun will rise tommorow but Im pretty damn sure it will since every day of my life it has.
    Well, I'm not so sure about that! You may say that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I'm more inclined to believe that in actuality the Earth will continue to rotate on its axis making it appear as though the sun rises and sets. I'd say that science has helped us figure out that process and that there is plenty of evidence indicating that will ocntinue to happen.

    In fact, you talk about the bias of the researchers, but I would point out that there is a definite bias involved if you've shelled $150 for a cycle, too. Most people believe that they've done their "research" because they've surfed a few chat sites. They think that they can't possibly be wrong. There is probably a bias to exaggerate results to talk about how great their chosen prohormone really is.


    2) yes it takes time to dry, Wake up afew minute earlier or take a quicker shower you can deal with it for 4-8 weeks in excahnge for 5-15 lbs of extra muscle mass.

    3) I never do

    4) no ral difference in easo ther than avants requires more squirts since each squirt is a lower volume. They dry about the same though BDCs feels more oily for longer, which is good for absorption but kinda nasty. I deal with it som dont like it.
    Great info all the way around. Thanks.

    thirdly with your 1 - tu experience, you only gave it 3 weeks and you did gain 2 lbs with no bf gain usually you can gain about 1 lb per week naturally but probably 1/3 to 1/2 of that will be fat so you made some gains and the androgens did something. the science behind ethergels is sound even Chemo said so at one point. you may have needed to take more or for longer but I think that even with 2 lbs you did do something to your body.
    Do you really think so? I'd say my body weight can fluctuate two pounds in just a day or two and I'd doubt I'm any different from anybody else. Just due to GI tract variations, hydration levels, etc....that two pounds is pretty tough to attribute to the 1-TU. For that matter, I'd guess that over a pound, almost a pound and a half should have come from the bit of extra calories I consumed.

    Go transdermal or high dose 1 ad your choice to fit YOUR lifestyle.Both work and I feel confident in saying you will be plaesantly impressed.
    I know that BDC and LGP products are absolutely cutting edge. I firmly believe that if they wouldn't work, nothing would. Man, that 1-AD sure would be more convenient, though. Damn that drying time. I guess the morning would be OK because I could apply to the back of my knees, put on some boxers, and continue to get ready for work other than put on pants. But twice per day....whoo!

    Thanks a lot for the time, maggmaster. I appreciate your reply.
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    Yea when i read back over it the sun thing was rather inane. I do understand some biochemistry however and in my opinion prohormones should workon a scientific level very similarly to how they have worked on an anectdotal level. Give a trans a try and tell me you dont love it. The 1-tu thing i assumed you were taking into account your daily fluctuations or that you were pretty stable sorry for the misunderstanding on that one maybe you git abum batch. Didnt yousay however that you were slightly hypo caloric at the time? If thats the case then a 1-2 lb gain thing aint that bad. Anyway good luck and happy growing.
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    Originally posted by maggmaster
    Yea when i read back over it the sun thing was rather inane. I do understand some biochemistry however and in my opinion prohormones should workon a scientific level very similarly to how they have worked on an anectdotal level. Give a trans a try and tell me you dont love it. The 1-tu thing i assumed you were taking into account your daily fluctuations or that you were pretty stable sorry for the misunderstanding on that one maybe you git abum batch. Didnt yousay however that you were slightly hypo caloric at the time? If thats the case then a 1-2 lb gain thing aint that bad. Anyway good luck and happy growing.
    LOL! Hey, magg, I definitely appreciate your input...sun or no sun, it's no sweat, man! You know, it's quite possible that I did get a bum batch of the 1-TU. I hadn't really considered that much, but you never know. I was slightly hyPERcaloric...don't know what I said in the first post but I may have said hyPO. If so, I just said it wrong.

    I may just have to bite the bullet and do this thing yet. I've asked some questions in some other threads, so I'm just here to learn a little bit from you or anybody else that can help!

    I'm especially curious about:
    1) whether or not the 672 vs. 467 mgs of 1-test is truly an apples to apples comparison

    2) I asked in another thread if I could mix my own with 1,4-andro and 4-ad instead of 1-test and 4-ad...if anybody has any experience with that stack or theories about how it might work, say, with 10g of 1,4-ad and 5g of 4-ad in a 240ml suspension.

    THANKS to all...
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    The problem that I have with that number for 1-ad is that the 165 number comes from amount excreteed in the urine. No one really knows how much is utilized by the body. i know you dont like anectdotal buuut anectdotally youll gain more from the trans.

    Ive used 1/4 and 4ad and 1-test I love all three but they are different animals 1/4 I used by itself this summer to support an eight week super cutting regimine I used 900 mg a day and was very pleased with the vasxularity and strength gains. It did not put on any real mass but then again I was cutting so... I guess that makes sense. It is not however as anabolic in my opinion as 1-test which leans me out by the end of the first week on and then starts extreme strength gains by the end of the second. For a starter cycle unless you are super worried about hair loss 1-t is a must. 4ad i used in my first cycle and as a stack partner for all of my 1-test runs. 4ads great it makes me feel awesome I get real strong and I look huge. Last year on 800 mg a day for 6 weeks I put on close to 20 lbs I lost 8 of them after cycle but while I was on I felt like a tank. 4ad is ood as abase for any cycle but if you want to stay looking lean throw in an anti-e for the duration. In my opinion for a first if you want to do as hard a cycle as possible do 1-test 4ad trans. if you want to stay lean tossin an anti-e. 1/4 was a fun experiment for me but honestely 1-test would have been better. I love the vascularity but I gotta tell you go simple.
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    Maggmaster is hittin it right on the head... Transdermals are anectodally better than orals, and they don't stress the liver as much.

    For an awesome lean gain cycle I'd run t1pro at a total of 3 squirts/day (1 in the morning, 2 after workout or 2 after workout 1 in the evening) for 4 weeks while eating a good amount above maintenance calories, but keep it clean with lotsa protien. Post-cycle with some clomid, then hit some cardio up to get rid of any (I doubt there will be though) bodyfat. If you aren't afraid to get some fat in ya and want great gains, run t1 final at a high dose along with an anti-e for 4 weeks.

    ManBeast
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    Originally posted by maggmaster
    The problem that I have with that number for 1-ad is that the 165 number comes from amount excreteed in the urine. No one really knows how much is utilized by the body. i know you dont like anectdotal buuut anectdotally youll gain more from the trans.

    Ive used 1/4 and 4ad and 1-test I love all three but they are different animals 1/4 I used by itself this summer to support an eight week super cutting regimine I used 900 mg a day and was very pleased with the vasxularity and strength gains. It did not put on any real mass but then again I was cutting so... I guess that makes sense. It is not however as anabolic in my opinion as 1-test which leans me out by the end of the first week on and then starts extreme strength gains by the end of the second. For a starter cycle unless you are super worried about hair loss 1-t is a must. 4ad i used in my first cycle and as a stack partner for all of my 1-test runs. 4ads great it makes me feel awesome I get real strong and I look huge. Last year on 800 mg a day for 6 weeks I put on close to 20 lbs I lost 8 of them after cycle but while I was on I felt like a tank. 4ad is ood as abase for any cycle but if you want to stay looking lean throw in an anti-e for the duration. In my opinion for a first if you want to do as hard a cycle as possible do 1-test 4ad trans. if you want to stay lean tossin an anti-e. 1/4 was a fun experiment for me but honestely 1-test would have been better. I love the vascularity but I gotta tell you go simple.
    Go simple. That's good advice. That's probably what I should and probably will do. I mean, that's almost a no-brainer. If I get the T-1 Pro with 10g of 1-test and 5g of 4-ad, I should be set.

    But I'm damn tempted to get a 240ml bottle of t-gel, then order up 5g of 1,4 powder, 5g of 1-test powder, and 5g of 4-ad powder from 1fast! I don't really care about holding some water or gaining some fat weight. I've got a little track and field competition on September 13th, so I'm going to avoid putting on any weight for another 3 weeks. After that, I don't really care.

    But I should say this....I'm NOT a bodybuilder. I'm in it for strength more than size. I don't cre how BIG I get, but I want to be STRONGER. ****, I should have maybe mentioned that earlier. That also means I tend to avoid rep ranges higher than 6....sometimes 8 for a smaller muscle like biceps. Does that change anything?

    Should I maybe mix up all three if strength is the number one goal? Does that change any advice. Damn! I should have mentioned that earlier...my apologies...and thanks to all for the great feedback!!!
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    Originally posted by ManBeast
    Maggmaster is hittin it right on the head... Transdermals are anectodally better than orals, and they don't stress the liver as much.

    For an awesome lean gain cycle I'd run t1pro at a total of 3 squirts/day (1 in the morning, 2 after workout or 2 after workout 1 in the evening) for 4 weeks while eating a good amount above maintenance calories, but keep it clean with lotsa protien. Post-cycle with some clomid, then hit some cardio up to get rid of any (I doubt there will be though) bodyfat. If you aren't afraid to get some fat in ya and want great gains, run t1 final at a high dose along with an anti-e for 4 weeks.

    ManBeast
    Damn...the liver. Good point. You suggest doing an anti-e along WITH the cycle on higher doses? Good to know, but I'll probably keep it moderate.
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    Yes, an anti-e on cycle with an aromatizing hormone/ph (4AD) is a good idea. Not sure on how to help you in the strength vs. size prorhormone debate.

    ManBeast
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    Originally posted by ManBeast
    Maggmaster is hittin it right on the head... Transdermals are anectodally better than orals, and they don't stress the liver as much.

    For an awesome lean gain cycle I'd run t1pro at a total of 3 squirts/day (1 in the morning, 2 after workout or 2 after workout 1 in the evening) for 4 weeks while eating a good amount above maintenance calories, but keep it clean with lotsa protien. Post-cycle with some clomid, then hit some cardio up to get rid of any (I doubt there will be though) bodyfat. If you aren't afraid to get some fat in ya and want great gains, run t1 final at a high dose along with an anti-e for 4 weeks.

    ManBeast


     

    manbeast-

    i really like your stack, but i have a few questions...

    first let me tell you a little about what i want to do, i want to put on as much lean mass as possible, will limiting fat gain, so i like the 1-test/4ad stack.

    my questions are, how much 1-test did you take a day?  how much 4ad did you take a day?

    how much 1,4-diol can you ad a day?

    would that be a good stack, 1-test/4ad/1,4-diol, for strength, hardness, and vascularity?
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    If you're looking for a lean mass transdermal you might want to consider formasin in addition to your other PH/PS.

    A possible stack might be:
    7g 4-AD
    6g 1-Test
    2g Formasin

    Another possible stack could be:
    5g 1-Test
    4g 4-AD
    4g 1,4 dione
    2g Formasin

    At one squirt twice a day, the formasin would be slightly more than the equivalent 3 pills of Molecular Nutrition's Formastat.

    ~Todd
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    Originally posted by tatortodd
    If you're looking for a lean mass transdermal you might want to consider formasin in addition to your other PH/PS.

    A possible stack might be:
    7g 4-AD
    6g 1-Test
    2g Formasin

    Another possible stack could be:
    5g 1-Test
    4g 4-AD
    4g 1,4 dione
    2g Formasin

    At one squirt twice a day, the formasin would be slightly more than the equivalent 3 pills of Molecular Nutrition's Formastat.

    ~Todd
     

    would that work with a 4 week on, 4 week off, 4 week on cycle, because that is what i will be doing, any recommendations is greatly appreciated.
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    Originally posted by SoupBone

    1) I'm not completelely stupid about dosing, but tell me if this is correct. If I did 1-AD at 600mg per day, that would be 4200mg per week. I've read that 1-AD survives oral ingestion at around 16%, so I should get 672 mg per week of the hormone? Is that correct? Then with T-1 Pro at 1 squirt twice per day, BDC says I would absorb 467mg of 1-test per week? (that's in the dosing sticky)
    1-AD has an oral absorbtion rate of around 15% and a conversion rate (to target hormone) of around 20%. That translates to: 4200mg/week oral = 630mg (after oral absorbtion rate of 15%) = 126mg of 1-test per week (after 20% conversion rate).

    T1 Pro contains 1-test (the target hormone of 1-AD) so no conversion is necessary, but a dermal is only good for ~40% absorbtion MAX. This translates to: 467mg applied per week = 187mg per week after 40% absorbtion rate.

    These numbers are purely theoretical as there have been no real studies done to demonstrate actual conversion/absorbtion rates.
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    Originally posted by ckoch1722
    would that work with a 4 week on, 4 week off, 4 week on cycle, because that is what i will be doing, any recommendations is greatly appreciated.
    Yes, the standard 4 week on, 4 week off (including post cycle), 4 week on cycle, and 8 week off (including post cycle).

    ~Todd
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    Originally posted by tatortodd


    Yes, the standard 4 week on, 4 week off (including post cycle), 4 week on cycle, and 8 week off (including post cycle).

    ~Todd
     

    thnaks todd, but i still have a question, what is the foresain for?

     

    what does it represnt in the stack

    1-test

    4ad

    1,4andodiol
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    ckoch1722,

    The best advice that I can give you is to read all of the stickies in the prohormone section. Additionally, you can click on the hotlink in my signature, open the zip file that Sikdogg posted, and you'll find a good summary of PH/PS and anti-e's.

    ~Todd
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    Wait... 3 pounds of pure lean body mass in 3 weeks is a bad thing? This is news to me. Most people gain FAR FAR FAR less LBM after a cycle of ph/ps than they think. A lot of it is increased glycogen storage, water weight, fat, and extra food in their body (since they've upped their cals so much).

    3 pounds of LBM in 3 weeks is ****ing excellent bro, but... you probably didn't even gain pure LBM, so it doesn't matter anyway
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    Originally posted by TheTom
    Wait... 3 pounds of pure lean body mass in 3 weeks is a bad thing? This is news to me. Most people gain FAR FAR FAR less LBM after a cycle of ph/ps than they think. A lot of it is increased glycogen storage, water weight, fat, and extra food in their body (since they've upped their cals so much).

    3 pounds of LBM in 3 weeks is ****ing excellent bro, but... you probably didn't even gain pure LBM, so it doesn't matter anyway
    I gained TWO pounds in three weeks....and that's actual body weight, not claimed LBM. My body fat readings didn't change. If I'm 10% fat and 90% lean and I stayed exactly that same ratio, I guess I would have gained 1.8 pounds of LBM in three weeks.

    I think the main thing, though is that two pounds is only about 1% of my body weight. A difference that slight could easily be attributed to GI tract variation, hydration levels, or a number of other things.

    I agree that most people probably don't do as well as they think when they do a cycle. I've had several conversations on bodybuilding.com where somebody will tell me that they gain 15 pounds every time they do a cycle...and they've done 6 of them in the last year.

    So I'll ask them if they are really NINETY pounds heavier than they were a year ago. Well, that seldom turns out to be the case.
  

  
 

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    Last Post: 04-18-2003, 01:56 PM
  5. Need a little help here.
    By gettnbig in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-16-2003, 05:53 PM

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