very cool stuff(ddnl)

[pogue]

Originally posted by weissmuller


IMO this procedure should work for any PH whose conversion process involves the reduction of an aldehyde into an alcohol, this would mean any dione would work.  So you could make nadrolene out of 19 Nor Dione, Boldenone out of 1,4 and of course test out of straight up Andro.

So you think this would only work on dione PHs, not diol versions?

[wojo]

Originally posted by pogue


So you think this would only work on dione PHs, not diol versions?

 

 kinda wondering that myself

[drfly]

could someone please re-type the article from the magazine and post it as a sticky, cuz this is excellent information, and i think many of us could benefit from this if it lives up to theory.

[weissmuller]

Originally posted by pogue


So you think this would only work on dione PHs, not diol versions?

Diols and Diones differ on the groups that they have on the cholesterol backbone.  Diols have a HO group in position 3 and a OH group in position 17.  Diones have a an O group in each position.  Testosterone has  O in the 3 position and a OH in the 17. 

For a diol to become test the HO at 3 must become O.  For a dione to convert, its O in position 17 must become OH.  So they require different actions to convert.  This is why diols and diones convert with different enzymes.

This procedure in the article reduces the alhydrede(sp) forming this O in position 17 into a primary alcohol giving it the OH at position 17 thereby making it test.

This procedure wouldn't convert a diol since it needs a different conversion action.  I guess a procedure could be made for diols(probally very easily also), but it would not be this procedure.

[pogue]

Well, in that case, the only diones that I can find sold in bulk is 1,4andro and 19-nordione. Who sells bulk andro powder still?

[wojo]

www.myvitanet.com has the nor

[drfly]

hey weismuller, i think its pretty aparent that u know ur stuff pretty well, would u mind putting together a procedure like this, but to convert diols? i think that would help us all out a lot. thanks, whether or not u do it

[weissmuller]

Originally posted by drfly
hey weismuller, i think its pretty aparent that u know ur stuff pretty well, would u mind putting together a procedure like this, but to convert diols? i think that would help us all out a lot. thanks, whether or not u do it

Well I am sorry that I am not a chemical engineer and really arn't much an expert at procedure design.  It would be possibly, and pretty easy to convert a diol.  Basically it would be similar to the dione procedure, except it would use an oxidizer instead of a reducer.

The problem is I have to look of the kinetic to determine the temperature at which the desired product is favored and the rate of the reaction.  I have been searching through my chem books like a madman but like I said I am no expert.

But I might have something on the way.  Diols would be so much damn easier seeing as almost no one seems andro-dione powder since its as useless as sand.  If I can put something together I'll definatley throw it up on the board.

[pogue]

Originally posted by wojo
www.myvitanet.com has the nor

That site has andro powder!

Androstenedione 30 grams bulk

Regular price: $49.95
Sale price: $18.95, 2/$24.00

19 norandrostene 20 grams bulk pure pharmaceutical grade 19 norandrostenedione 39.95

Contains 20,000 mg per bottle.

Equal to 200-100 mg capsules

Regular price: $89.95 Sale price: $39.95, 2/$70.00

Kilosports has the following:

SALE: 19-NORANDROSTENEDIONE 50 GRAMS ONLY $59.95
(regular price is $69)

1,4-Androstadiene-3,17-dione
(1,4-ADD) 20 grams $49.95

1fast400 sells 1,4andro for $4 a gram, so kilo has the better deal.

Those are the only diones that I could find. There is also Bill's new formasin thing, which is 4-hydroxyandro, which converts to 4-hydroxytest... I wonder if it would be worth looking into.

[SteveDFW]

BAC has andro powder at 20 grams for $14

http://www.beyond-a-century.com/

[crazypete]

howdy, i say screw the andro, too hard and too many chems required. like PA said the diol id easier (also better yeild) I will hit the university library when i get back to school and do some research on this matter. hopefully i can come up with a simple procedure. i will run it by some of my organic chem buddies and try to test a sample from a test batch. will report back by mid January.

cheers, pete
PS if anyone knows were to find the diol conversion, please PM me, thanks

[weissmuller]

Okay I put some time into reviewing learning some of the chemistry needed for the diol.  The most promising thing I've seen so far is an oxidiation reaction, using an oxidizing agent.  An oxidizing agent should be real easy to aquire and probally is availilbe in certain commercial products.  This should be an easy reaction to but...

The problem lies that a diol has an OH group on eith side of the molecule.  If both are oxidized then you end up with a dione.  A reaction to convert diols to diones would pointless as sh*t.  What has to happen is the OH in the 3 position needs oxidized while the OH in the 17 position stays in tack.

The key will be energy.  Due to the aromatic strucutre of andro the resonance(sp) energy it posses, these 2 reactions should have a different energy change(enthalpy change).  By knowing the exact enthalpy change for each reaction we can decide what temperature the reaction should be carried out at and any other chemicals that should be added to the mix for catalyzing.  I do not have this info, I've been searching the net and my books like crazy and found nothing.  If someone here can dig this up, maybe in some chemical reaction books, university libraries, chemical databases, ect. then we could probally design I procedure.

I still have to look into this some more to make sure the kinetics allow this as a viable route.  There are also some other possibilities that I am looking into but non are as promissing.

[drfly]

hey great work weismuller, lets get some chem gurus workin on this with him!!! sorry i cant contribute much to this yet, im not too good in the area of chemistry.

[crazypete]

no worries mates, i'm on the right track. found the synthesis texts in the library (the bastards moved them from back when i was in biochem). i started reading but had to bust out to classes. i'm going back tonight.

hey weiss, i don't think we have to worry about the temp too much. more important is selecting the right oxidizing agent, one that is strong enough to remove the hydrogen from the OH group on carbon3 but not on carbon17. PA did say that it was a weak oxidizing agent. this is where the energies of the two bonds and the oxidizing agent come into play.

cheers, pete

[John Benz]

Originally posted by weissmuller
Okay I put some time into reviewing learning some of the chemistry ......other possibilities that I am looking into but non are as promissing.

Originally posted by John Benz


Steroid Board Rules - READ FIRST

Defiance of any of these rules may result in your account being banned.

4. People under 20 should not juice, people under 17 should not post.

If you are under twenty and you start a post with "I am going to use ..." you are asking for a nice flaming and people will not take you seriously.

weissmuller, you are 16. What part of the above steroid board rules do you fail to comprehend?

Birthday February 16, 1986

[pogue]

JB, I wish you would PM people in the future if you have a problem with them posting in the steroid forum. It clutters up posts with useless info.

Secondly, I hope weismuller continues to post here, regardless of age because he has contributed a wealth of information to this discussion and I feel he has more knowledge on the topic than most adults would. But, that is my opinion and I will leave that up to the mods descretion, and hopefully it will not be nessecary to have the age police check people anytime someone makes a post.

[John Benz]

Board rules are there for all to read and adhere to. No exceptions, regardless of what you may like. If the children would obey the rules, there would be no prohormone legislation right now.

And, no I will not pm the children, but state facts right out in the open. This is only useless to those who flaunt board regulations, Pogue.

[pogue]

I think the argument over the PH ban is irrelevant to this discussion. Furthermore, I do not see you listed as a mod for this forum. There is a 'report this post button'. I recommend using that in the future and let a board moderator make that call.

I realize you are a respected member, and a mod on BB forums, but not even the Steroid forum at BB makes these kinds of posts regarding age. They simply advise the poster that they should not be using anabolic substances at that age and the conversation is dropped or the post is simply closed.

Furthermore, this post really has nothing to do with AAS in the first place and should actually be moved to another forum.

I hope you understand my argument and I mean no disrespect to your predisposition on the matter, the board mods or any of the members - I just feel like the situation could be handled differently.

[crazypete]

alrighty i found some stuff:

4AD ----> test
one step reaction with CrO3 and HMPA (hexamethylphosphoramide)

p. 335 Bulletin de la Société Chimique de France 1969

unfortunately there are no concentrations or expected yeilds given, but we are on the right track. i do not think that this is the simple reaction.


there are two ways i see that this could be done simply:

1. find an oxidizing agent that is strong enough to oxidize the 3ol but not the 17ol, this may very well be possible as long as the two bond energies differ. a difference in bond energies would be due primarily to the double bond between C4 and C5. this makes the 3ol less stable, the double bond makes reaction easier at C3 rather than C17.

2. find a simple protecting group for the 17ol and then use a stronger oxidizing agent to ensure complete oxidation of the 3ol and then simply wash off the protecting group. this process could be very easy and cheap or very tricky and expensive. we'll see.

i'll be doing more reading, cheers, pete

[weissmuller]

Hey I understand the age issue.  I am apologize if I am hurting this board with my posts or becomming a liability, but understand I am just here to share what I know about chem.  No way I am ready for this personally and probally won't be for a while, but if I can help out a few dudes here with what I know then I'd sure as hell like to.  If I am a problem just tell me and I'll leave this area of the board.

And pete that reaction looks promsing I was looking at another possibility using a dichromate ion oxidation.  Sodium Dicromate is incredibly cheap and easy to get.  All it require is a strong acid and I have almost completed a simple procedure to convert acetic acid(vinear) into the needed strength acid.  Just a little more math.

About conversion control its propally gonna come down to enthalpy and entropy.  Since sex hormones are based on an aromatic frame of carbons they have strong stability in energy due to resonance energy.  Since one OH(in the 3) is bonded to a 6 a side containing six carbons and the other(in 17) is bonded to ring of five, theoretically the 3 should have a more stable intermediate and thereby a higher conversion under similar conditions.  But to workout it out we'd need the entholpy and entropy and the diol, dion and test.  From that I could workout the equilibrium and various temps.  I can't find this info but maybe someone else can.  I looked into various procedures for estimating this based on some complicated math, but again the net isn't the greatest info source.  If I can find this data and work it out, I'll post what I believe would be a decent procedure, but I've been really pressed for time so I am not making great progress.  I'll keep looking and wish you guys the best luck on any searching you do.