very cool stuff(ddnl)
- 12-26-2002, 11:53 PM
howdy, i say screw the andro, too hard and too many chems required. like PA said the diol id easier (also better yeild) I will hit the university library when i get back to school and do some research on this matter. hopefully i can come up with a simple procedure. i will run it by some of my organic chem buddies and try to test a sample from a test batch. will report back by mid January.
PS if anyone knows were to find the diol conversion, please PM me, thanks
- 12-29-2002, 09:40 AM
Okay I put some time into reviewing learning some of the chemistry needed for the diol. The most promising thing I've seen so far is an oxidiation reaction, using an oxidizing agent. An oxidizing agent should be real easy to aquire and probally is availilbe in certain commercial products. This should be an easy reaction to but...
The problem lies that a diol has an OH group on eith side of the molecule. If both are oxidized then you end up with a dione. A reaction to convert diols to diones would pointless as sh*t. What has to happen is the OH in the 3 position needs oxidized while the OH in the 17 position stays in tack.
The key will be energy. Due to the aromatic strucutre of andro the resonance(sp) energy it posses, these 2 reactions should have a different energy change(enthalpy change). By knowing the exact enthalpy change for each reaction we can decide what temperature the reaction should be carried out at and any other chemicals that should be added to the mix for catalyzing. I do not have this info, I've been searching the net and my books like crazy and found nothing. If someone here can dig this up, maybe in some chemical reaction books, university libraries, chemical databases, ect. then we could probally design I procedure.
I still have to look into this some more to make sure the kinetics allow this as a viable route. There are also some other possibilities that I am looking into but non are as promissing.
12-29-2002, 06:51 PM
hey great work weismuller, lets get some chem gurus workin on this with him!!! sorry i cant contribute much to this yet, im not too good in the area of chemistry.
01-06-2003, 05:03 PM
no worries mates, i'm on the right track. found the synthesis texts in the library (the bastards moved them from back when i was in biochem). i started reading but had to bust out to classes. i'm going back tonight.
hey weiss, i don't think we have to worry about the temp too much. more important is selecting the right oxidizing agent, one that is strong enough to remove the hydrogen from the OH group on carbon3 but not on carbon17. PA did say that it was a weak oxidizing agent. this is where the energies of the two bonds and the oxidizing agent come into play.
01-06-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by weissmuller
Okay I put some time into reviewing learning some of the chemistry ......other possibilities that I am looking into but non are as promissing.Birthday February 16, 1986Originally posted by John Benz
Steroid Board Rules - READ FIRST
Defiance of any of these rules may result in your account being banned.
4. People under 20 should not juice, people under 17 should not post.
If you are under twenty and you start a post with "I am going to use ..." you are asking for a nice flaming and people will not take you seriously.
weissmuller, you are 16. What part of the above steroid board rules do you fail to comprehend?
01-06-2003, 06:51 PM
JB, I wish you would PM people in the future if you have a problem with them posting in the steroid forum. It clutters up posts with useless info.
Secondly, I hope weismuller continues to post here, regardless of age because he has contributed a wealth of information to this discussion and I feel he has more knowledge on the topic than most adults would. But, that is my opinion and I will leave that up to the mods descretion, and hopefully it will not be nessecary to have the age police check people anytime someone makes a post.
@pogue25 on Twitter
01-06-2003, 07:00 PM
Board rules are there for all to read and adhere to. No exceptions, regardless of what you may like. If the children would obey the rules, there would be no prohormone legislation right now.
And, no I will not pm the children, but state facts right out in the open. This is only useless to those who flaunt board regulations, Pogue.
01-06-2003, 07:12 PM
I think the argument over the PH ban is irrelevant to this discussion. Furthermore, I do not see you listed as a mod for this forum. There is a 'report this post button'. I recommend using that in the future and let a board moderator make that call.
I realize you are a respected member, and a mod on BB forums, but not even the Steroid forum at BB makes these kinds of posts regarding age. They simply advise the poster that they should not be using anabolic substances at that age and the conversation is dropped or the post is simply closed.
Furthermore, this post really has nothing to do with AAS in the first place and should actually be moved to another forum.
I hope you understand my argument and I mean no disrespect to your predisposition on the matter, the board mods or any of the members - I just feel like the situation could be handled differently.
@pogue25 on Twitter
01-07-2003, 05:54 PM
alrighty i found some stuff:
4AD ----> test
one step reaction with CrO3 and HMPA (hexamethylphosphoramide)
p. 335 Bulletin de la Société Chimique de France 1969
unfortunately there are no concentrations or expected yeilds given, but we are on the right track. i do not think that this is the simple reaction.
there are two ways i see that this could be done simply:
1. find an oxidizing agent that is strong enough to oxidize the 3ol but not the 17ol, this may very well be possible as long as the two bond energies differ. a difference in bond energies would be due primarily to the double bond between C4 and C5. this makes the 3ol less stable, the double bond makes reaction easier at C3 rather than C17.
2. find a simple protecting group for the 17ol and then use a stronger oxidizing agent to ensure complete oxidation of the 3ol and then simply wash off the protecting group. this process could be very easy and cheap or very tricky and expensive. we'll see.
i'll be doing more reading, cheers, pete
01-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Hey I understand the age issue. I am apologize if I am hurting this board with my posts or becomming a liability, but understand I am just here to share what I know about chem. No way I am ready for this personally and probally won't be for a while, but if I can help out a few dudes here with what I know then I'd sure as hell like to. If I am a problem just tell me and I'll leave this area of the board.
And pete that reaction looks promsing I was looking at another possibility using a dichromate ion oxidation. Sodium Dicromate is incredibly cheap and easy to get. All it require is a strong acid and I have almost completed a simple procedure to convert acetic acid(vinear) into the needed strength acid. Just a little more math.
About conversion control its propally gonna come down to enthalpy and entropy. Since sex hormones are based on an aromatic frame of carbons they have strong stability in energy due to resonance energy. Since one OH(in the 3) is bonded to a 6 a side containing six carbons and the other(in 17) is bonded to ring of five, theoretically the 3 should have a more stable intermediate and thereby a higher conversion under similar conditions. But to workout it out we'd need the entholpy and entropy and the diol, dion and test. From that I could workout the equilibrium and various temps. I can't find this info but maybe someone else can. I looked into various procedures for estimating this based on some complicated math, but again the net isn't the greatest info source. If I can find this data and work it out, I'll post what I believe would be a decent procedure, but I've been really pressed for time so I am not making great progress. I'll keep looking and wish you guys the best luck on any searching you do.
01-08-2003, 01:09 AM
hey weiss, i'm glad your staying away from the stuff at this time. i am too for now, but have a lot of people asking me at school (alot of them juice, so when a friend asked me last summer i too started to research for a safer alternative). i think you are going about it the wrong way. i know that one can do all sorts of calculations (i've taken alot of organic and physical chem during my biochem degree) but all those figures already exist. i will try to hunt them down tomorrow. unfortunately the reaction is not promising because other compounds are formed one is a pregnelone. as for acetic acid get glacial, its like 99%. if you live in a large city you could get it from a chemical supply company. as for weiss, you could probably get it at school (join the science club and do an experiment preferably one that requires lots of acetic acid, then make sure alot more is ordered and borrow some).
enthalpy is the bond energies of the bonds in question, entropy is not a factor since the two positions would have the same process take place. the only reason we have to worry about enthalpy is that if we use too strong an oxidizing agent, then both OHs will become ketones (we would be making androstenedione). the testosterone molecule however, is not aromatic, it only has one double bond. when it aromatizes it becomes an estrogen in which the A ring is aromatic. as for the strength of the bonds between C and O i believe that the 17 position is stronger, here's why: even though the ring at 17 has only 5Cs, it is adjacent to a quatrenary carbon which is very stable, also the adjacent carbon to C3 has a double bond which actually helps to destabilze the C-O bond and when C=O forms it will then be able to form a resonance with the double bond (though not to the degree of an aromatic ring).
just trust me for now, i will get the data as soon as possible and if i'm wrong i'll tell. as for going through complicated math, don't bother, there is an easier way i'm sure. i will try to post all the thermodynamic data so we can all be on the same page. i will also keep looking through the synthesis manuals i'm sure the reaction will probably be there too.
weiss talk to me before you do any long calculations, i can probably find the data in the critical tables which will be better than an approximation. also the reaction will not require extreme conditions, it will be in room temp in water (all good process chemists try to make all reactions such - i am not a process chemist). by the way weiss you were on the right track except for the bond strengths, good work, for a young'un your pretty sharp.
BTW this process will work for 19nor4androstenediol --> nandrolone
01-08-2003, 03:18 PM
if anyone is doing research don't just look under androstene derivatives, but also under hydroxyketosteroids and ketosteroids, many old synthesis text use these nomenclatures.
01-08-2003, 06:46 PM
Nice info Pete.
I don't know much about organic chem and have only read a few books on the subject, never any fomral studies. By aromatic I ment heterocyclic(i think thats right). I believe you with the stability of the bonds in the the two positions and I am guessing the 3 should have a better conversion rate. But I still think knowing the mathmatics would be important. From my understanding test, diols, and diones should all differ in their entropy due to the relative location and how this effects compound stability. With entropy and enthalpy we could work out the equilibrium rates and see to what extent this occurs and how temps plays an effect.
In theory diol with a an oxidizer like the dichromate ion and a decent acid would convert the hormone and we would get various products but it would be nice to know the degree these products occur. We won't want just a full yeild of diones do to conditions.
About the acid, personally I could aquire alomst any chem I needed but since this isn't for me I wanted to develope a procedure that the average Joe can perform. I fiquired by finding a non-volitile chemical that could easily be distributed through the main that would bond with acetate ions into a non soluble product would create a decent strength acid from vinegar. This would be much more conviniet than everyone trying to aquire some quality sulfiric acid or such.
Like I said its not like organic chemistry is my specialty and if I am off track let me know, I know I still have a good deal to learn in that area.
01-09-2003, 12:34 PM
what i meant by not doing loads of math is that it is useless to use models to calculate the bond enthalpies of the 3OH and 17OH as these are available. we still have to do some simple calculations to find which oxidizing agent is effective for our needs (oxidize at C3 but not at C17). while it is true that most reactions could be pushed at higher temps to occur, it is harder to control them (yeilds, etc.). most alcohols will react easily at room temp we just need the right oxidizing agent. remember PA said that it was simple. i am also looking for a simple reaction, not so much for an easy set up, but for efficiency both pricewise and yeildwise.
01-09-2003, 11:47 PM
crazypete and weismuller are both genuises and i give them props for working this stuff out. i wish i could help out more, but this stuff is way beyond me. just reading this stuff blows my mind.
once you get all the kinks worked out, i definitely want to try this. just tell me what to mix with what and how much and i'll be good to go
thanks guys, keep up the mad scientist work!
@pogue25 on Twitter
01-10-2003, 04:05 AM
I'M CRAZY NOT MAD. GET THAT STRAIGHT.
just kidding. unfortunately i have had a hard time with the reference texts. they were not comprehensive as i had hoped, but my earlier hypothesis about the bond strengths are correct, however, i still have no numbers. don't ask, i was in the library all day.
too bad kilosports doesn't sell 5AD, that conversion is jokes and 100% yeild.
anyway we will find the reaction. it will be simple. i'm also working on a 4hydroxyandrostenedione from androstenedione. it looks simple, but i have to go back since originally i didn't write down were i saw it, but i saw it more than once, so it looks promising. 6-OXO and 1,4dione may also be possible although maybe not economical.
thanks for the compliments pogue, but what should blow your mind is that some real geniuses figured this stuff out like 50-70 years ago and it was old news by the time anyone thought of cheap anabolics or even about anabolics. i'm also blown away by weiss' breadth of chemical knowledge and ability to grasp key concepts (weiss are you really 16?). he has a future as a chemist.
01-10-2003, 02:40 PM
5-ad is very very easy to get..im actually usaing it right now and love the ****(pentabol extreme)..if u could throw down that conversion that would be great man..i appreciate all ur hard work
01-14-2003, 09:58 PM
Okay Pete today I actually did a very simple set of calculations for the therms of this reaction. The good new is as expected Diol to Test is very product favored, to slight degree more so than the oxidation of the other OH yeilding a ketosteroid(I forget the name). Unfortunatley the oxidation of Test to Dione is slightly more product favored than Test to Diol. This yeilds me to believe with excess oxidizing agent at standard conditions we'd get a yeild of mainly Dione.
I must emphasize(sp) that these conversions were quick and simplified. I neglected the ringed adjustments and will try to redo these calulations sometimes soon. I am working with partial understanding of this system(something I hate to do) but I don't have Benson's book nor are the resources availible over the net. But I'll keep working and should be able get the necessary values once I improve my understanding of how cyclic fits in.
I am not sure how much this will effect the values and if it'll improve relative favorness and such, but I am preparing for the worst, meaning the proccedure will need be designed with this in mind.
The one good thing that I can think of is that no matter what the results will be a mix. Since diones and diols use different enzymes if we can get their percent comps low enough the majority of these non test products will be converted to test in the live and with the addition of the test created by this procedure almost everything will become test. Of course if this is 99% dione yeild then it won't mean jack. I'll keep looking in and try to aquire Benson's book through my school or public library but that would probally take while.
By the way I am 16 and junior is HS. I only have 2 years of formal chem ed under my belt but this stuff is one thing I really understand and have an interest in and have been teaching myself other parts of chem outside of school. Hope to one day be doing something in chem.
01-15-2003, 10:49 AM
yeah its true that if there is too much oxidizing agent then it will convert the 17OH to a ketone, but we can put in another alcohol with a bond strength in between 3OH and 17OH to take care of the excess oxidant and still get complete test formation. don't worry, we'll get this thing dead on, i have a few more tricks up my sleeve.
i haven't been to the library in a few days, kind of busy, but will get to it.
01-20-2003, 04:41 PM
hey guys, i found a good book:
ORGANIC REACTIONS IN STEROID CHEMISTRY
Fried & Edwards, 1972
active platinum catalyst, inert solvent e.g., acetone or ethyl acetate
- selective dehydrogenation of 3-hydroxyl group in ?4 polyhydroxysteriods without attacking double bond or 17OH
-yield is 75% but procedure is not easy, like you could screw up easily in a proper lab
i will look into using a simple protecting group on the 17OH.
01-20-2003, 05:42 PM
the answer is MnO2 manganese dioxide (p.244-247 of the book in above post).
more to come, i think we got it.
01-21-2003, 11:57 PM
I think we should continue with the procedure on a new thread. Not trying to step on anyones toes or anything.