Increasing 5a-reductase enzyme and a cycle theory

[jasonschaffin]

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/88/18/8044.pdf

Feed-forward control of prostate growth: Dihydrotestosterone
induces expression of its own biosynthetic enzyme,
steroid 5a-reductase
(androgen action/testosterone metabolism/4-azasteroid inhibitors)
FREDRICK W. GEORGE*t, DAVID W. RUSSELLt, AND JEAN D. WILSONt
Departments of *Cell Biology and Neuroscience, tMolecular Genetics, and tInternal Medicine, The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at
Dallas, Dallas, TX 75235
Contributed by Jean D. Wilson, June 21, 1991
ABSTRACT Dihydrotestosterone, the primary mediator
of prostate growth, is synthesized in target tissues from the
circulating androgen testosterone through the action of steroid
Sa-reductase (EC 1.3.99.5). The expression of 5a-reductase
and the level of 5a-reductase messenger RNA in rat ventral
prostate are regulated by androgens. To determine whether
this control is mediated by dihydrotestosterone or testosterone,
we investigated the effect of rmasteride, a potent inhibitor of
steroid 5a-reductase, on the expression of 5a-reductase in the
prostate. The administration of rmasteride to intact rats for 7
days caused a 55% decrease in prostate weight and an 87%
decrease in 5a-reductase enzyme activity. Furthermore, the
restoration of prostate growth after castration and the enhancement
in 5a-reductase enzyme activity and 5a-reductase messenger
RNA level by testosterone administration were blocked
by finasteride, whereas the inhibitor had no effect on dihydrotestosterone-
mediated increases in 5a-reductase activity or
messengerRNAlevel. Thesefindingsindicatethatdihydrotestosterone
itself controls prostate growth and Sa-reductase activity.
They further suggest that prostate growth is controlled by
a feed-forward mechanism by which formation of trace
amounts of dihydrotestosterone induces 5a-reductase, thereby
increasing dihydrotestosterone synthesis and triggering a positive
developmental cascade.

and at the end

Thus, the
presence of dihydrotestosterone, but not testosterone, increases
the quantity of 5a-reductase mRNA

So what I'm getting out of this is that taking in DHT increases the amount of 5a-reductase our body makes (this may be a well known fact, doesn't matter).
My question is, do you think methyl-DHT would have the same effect? If so I have some M-5AA that I could take along with some M1,4ADD. If my theory is correct this would be an amazing stack. M1,4 converts to Dbol plus the activity on its own, size and strength. M-5AA for more strength and aggression. Now the kicker, extra 5a-reductase coupled with Dbol would have some M1T floating around in my system. Couple this possibly with topical Form to control estrogen we have:
M1,4Add ---> Dbol
M-5AA ---> M-DHT
Dbol ---> M1T
Formestane ---> decreased estrogen, increased IGF-1
Thoughts?

 

[jasonschaffin]

Well no replies yet but I just had a second thought. LG MMv2 is a DHT precursor. Just in case M-DHT doesn't have the same effect this would work too, and take it a little easier on the liver.

 

[SOLARUS]

M1,4Add ---> Dbol
M-5AA ---> M-DHT
Dbol ---> M1T
Formestane ---> decreased estrogen, increased IGF-1
Thoughts?

you already have this in a normal stack of those compounds...the study says that "minute" amounts of DHT induced more 5AR, presumably so that stasis could be achieved WRT DHT levels. 50mg+ of MDHT is a very long shot to make that happen (not that you'd even want it to - MDHT is LADEN with the expected sides, trust me) because a) it's the wrong chemical, and b) there's too much of it circulating. not to mention the castrated state of the rats, which means no endogenous T or DHT production to complicate things...

what i'm saying is that there are more holes in your theory that swiss cheese after a drive-by

 

[jasonschaffin]

you already have this in a normal stack of those compounds...the study says that "minute" amounts of DHT induced more 5AR, presumably so that stasis could be achieved WRT DHT levels. 50mg+ of MDHT is a very long shot to make that happen (not that you'd even want it to - MDHT is LADEN with the expected sides, trust me) because a) it's the wrong chemical, and b) there's too much of it circulating. not to mention the castrated state of the rats, which means no endogenous T or DHT production to complicate things...

what i'm saying is that there are more holes in your theory that swiss cheese after a drive-by

Ahh, but I changed it now to MMv2 remember. Prohormone to regular DHT. The castrated state of the rats doesn't worry me as much. Sure we are not castrated, but we are shutting our system down. My only real question is if you think exogenous DHT would increase the conversion of Dianabol to M1T?

Edit: I know it will already convert to M1T, just trying to see if we can increase it by a little, plus get extra strength/hardness out of the DHT.

 

[SOLARUS]

Ahh, but I changed it now to MMv2 remember. Prohormone to regular DHT. The castrated state of the rats doesn't worry me as much. Sure we are not castrated, but we are shutting our system down. My only real question is if you think exogenous DHT would increase the conversion of Dianabol to M1T?

Edit: I know it will already convert to M1T, just trying to see if we can increase it by a little, plus get extra strength/hardness out of the DHT.

I dont know much about MMv2. i looked for an actual chemical but LG isnt releasing it. they say "2 steps from DHT" but that's meaningless - androstenedione is too....DHEA is 3 steps and pregnenolone is 4 steps...without knowing the preferential conversions there is no way to tell how it will convert. i for one doubt it's a straight line (virtually nothing is)

oh, and you'd never need an anti-E with MDHT - it's a natural AI and will dry you out so much you wouldnt want one anyhow.

 

[jasonschaffin]

I dont know much about MMv2. i looked for an actual chemical but LG isnt releasing it. they say "2 steps from DHT" but that's meaningless - androstenedione is too....DHEA is 3 steps and pregnenolone is 4 steps...without knowing the preferential conversions there is no way to tell how it will convert. i for one doubt it's a straight line (virtually nothing is)

oh, and you'd never need an anti-E with MDHT - it's a natural AI and will dry you out so much you wouldnt want one anyhow.

The actual chemical is along the same lines as the AMS products out. It is basically 5a-reduced DHEA. DHT with the 3-ketone and 17-hydroxy switched. Good info on the AI though.

 

[thundergod]

Ahh, but I changed it now to MMv2 remember. Prohormone to regular DHT. The castrated state of the rats doesn't worry me as much. Sure we are not castrated, but we are shutting our system down. My only real question is if you think exogenous DHT would increase the conversion of Dianabol to M1T?

Edit: I know it will already convert to M1T, just trying to see if we can increase it by a little, plus get extra strength/hardness out of the DHT.

Hey Jason---I'm just starting a cycle of MMV2 that LG gave me to run a log on. Check it out at "MMV2=Meister-Mayhem-Violence 2 All Log." This is only day 3 for me, but I'm dosing @6 caps per day instead of the usual 3 caps. The LG rep advised me to take double the dosage due to my size and past PH/PS experience. I can "feel" the aggression already!:aargh: They also sent me out a bottle of their Receptor to run with it. That should come in later today. I'll have more to tell you about its effects after a full week or 10 days into it. After I do this cycle log for LG, in the future sometime (2 months maybe) I'm thinking of running 15 mg. of D-Bol, 20 mg. of Epi, and 20 mg. of superdrol, and just dose the MMV2 pre-workout only at maybe 4 caps 1 hour before my workout. How does this cycle sound to you? Is it too much? Maybe drop the Epi? I really respect your opinions on these matters.:box:

 

[RenegadeRows]

"MMV2=Meister-Mayhem-Violence 2 All Log."

LOL What a nice name

 

[jasonschaffin]

Hey Jason---I'm just starting a cycle of MMV2 that LG gave me to run a log on. Check it out at "MMV2=Meister-Mayhem-Violence 2 All Log." This is only day 3 for me, but I'm dosing @6 caps per day instead of the usual 3 caps. The LG rep advised me to take double the dosage due to my size and past PH/PS experience. I can "feel" the aggression already!:aargh: They also sent me out a bottle of their Receptor to run with it. That should come in later today. I'll have more to tell you about its effects after a full week or 10 days into it. After I do this cycle log for LG, in the future sometime (2 months maybe) I'm thinking of running 15 mg. of D-Bol, 20 mg. of Epi, and 20 mg. of superdrol, and just dose the MMV2 pre-workout only at maybe 4 caps 1 hour before my workout. How does this cycle sound to you? Is it too much? Maybe drop the Epi? I really respect your opinions on these matters.:box:

How long of a cycle of these are we talking? I have been checking in on your log, just haven't made any post yet. The epiandrosterone is a very intersting compound to me.

 

[thundergod]

How long of a cycle of these are we talking? I have been checking in on your log, just haven't made any post yet. The epiandrosterone is a very intersting compound to me.

I realized AFTER I posted the cycle strength, I forgot to mention the duration. Only a short 3-weeker. I like the quick, blitz-kreig type cycles!! I'm still up in the air about those dosages though. I've got a lot of time to plan it out, but any suggestions you might have would be greatly appreciated.:thumbsup:

 

[jasonschaffin]

If only three weeks I don't know why you would have any problems. I am no expert though, I am better at the chemistry part of it than anything else. Bet you would yield some pretty impressive gains for only three weeks though.

 

[thundergod]

If only three weeks I don't know why you would have any problems. I am no expert though, I am better at the chemistry part of it than anything else. Bet you would yield some pretty impressive gains for only three weeks though.

I'm still juggling ideas around on this cycle to be. Is the D-Bol dosed high enough? It's only 15 mg. per day. Also, should I use both the epi and the super, or pick one of the two? I will definately use a combo of MDHT/MMV2 for pre-workout fire-power. Maybe 2 or 3 caps of each 1 hour before blast-off!!!:hammer:

 

[jasonschaffin]

Seen many people running super and epi together. Seems like a solid combo. Dbol seems low dosed but when combined with the other two you probably won't need much. 15-20 seems to be the lowest you would ever want to run it at though.

 

[thundergod]

Seen many people running super and epi together. Seems like a solid combo. Dbol seems low dosed but when combined with the other two you probably won't need much. 15-20 seems to be the lowest you would ever want to run it at though.

Yeah, I knew the D-Bol was very low-end. 15 mg. per day, but then with the stack of epi and super going @ 20 mg. each per day and the fact that I'm gonna use 3 caps of MMV2 and 3 caps of MDHT pre-workout only, I thought I'd better keep the D-Bol low. This will be "the next great stack experiment of the Thundergod!":hammer:

 

[jasonschaffin]

Yeah, I knew the D-Bol was very low-end. 15 mg. per day, but then with the stack of epi and super going @ 20 mg. each per day and the fact that I'm gonna use 3 caps of MMV2 and 3 caps of MDHT pre-workout only, I thought I'd better keep the D-Bol low. This will be "the next great stack experiment of the Thundergod!":hammer:

Yep, only one way to find out. RUN IT!

 

[thundergod]

Yep, only one way to find out. RUN IT!

Oh, it's carved in stone now, man! No retreat, no surrender!!:numbered: THE THUNDERGOD :hammer:

 

[EasyEJL]

Ahh, but I changed it now to MMv2 remember. Prohormone to regular DHT. The castrated state of the rats doesn't worry me as much. Sure we are not castrated, but we are shutting our system down. My only real question is if you think exogenous DHT would increase the conversion of Dianabol to M1T?

Edit: I know it will already convert to M1T, just trying to see if we can increase it by a little, plus get extra strength/hardness out of the DHT.

So you think the MMv2 would make for a good bulking companion to some DS M1,4ad ?

 

[jasonschaffin]

So you think the MMv2 would make for a good bulking companion to some DS M1,4ad ?

In theory it should increase the amount of M1T that the dianabol converts to. But also dry up the dianabol. So maybe not more total weight, but hopefully drier weight and more strength.

 

[EasyEJL]

well, funny enough, I think that makes up my mind for what to do for a winter bulk then had been considering epistane with m1,4, but given this info, MMv2 would make better sense