steroid gains question

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    steroid gains question


    now alot of the gains gained from steroids, are they permanent and maintainable or do they disappear in time after discontinuation. I say this because all these pros like kevin levrone look like they lose everything after retirement.

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    IMO, you should retain 75-80% of what you gain as long as you cycle roids appropriately. Many people will jump on a cycle but eat and train like sh!t when they're off and hence a major difference.

    This doesn't really apply to the pros since they're on all year long and some of them probably use so much stuff that just lowering their dose would cause some losses. A lot of them come off or just lower their dose when they retire.

    IMO, if you're not trying to become as huge as a pro then you can maintain most of your gains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbkhan87 View Post
    now alot of the gains gained from steroids, are they permanent and maintainable or do they disappear in time after discontinuation. I say this because all these pros like kevin levrone look like they lose everything after retirement.
    Losing it after retirement is due to "use it or lose it" principle. Try to remember that adding as much muscle as many do on AAS is not natural, hence the need to constantly adapt your program and chemical/hormonal balance.
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    if you are juicing before hitting your natural max, then you'd loose anything over that natural max once you stop. Theres a certain level your body can maintain with just appropriate gym time + nutrition, but you can reach well over that on steroids.

    One little addon to this is that you can lower that natural max by not performing good PCT, or by not cycling or using materials like HCG while on cycle. Once your natural testosterone level is lowered, your max natural lean mass gets lowered too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbkhan87 View Post
    I say this because all these pros like kevin levrone look like they lose everything after retirement.
    Kevin claims he can get it all back w/in 16 weeks...

    ...I have no reason to doubt him. He is known to respond VERY VERY well to large doses of slin & GH. The amount of food he can consume and have it result in primarily tissue growth is impressive.

    You may ask yourself the opposite question...How can Lee Priest get fat in the offseason and then turn around and drop 40-60 pounds of fat in a couple of months? He responds very well to chemical cocktails...

    Also keep in mind that many retired pros choose to drop a lot of their muscle & weight when they retire. I think Charles Glass says that being 180 pounds at 50+ years of age is just way more comfortable then the 225+ pounds he use to compete at.
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    sweet that makes a lot more sense now
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Kevin claims he can get it all back w/in 16 weeks...

    ...I have no reason to doubt him. He is known to respond VERY VERY well to large doses of slin & GH. The amount of food he can consume and have it result in primarily tissue growth is impressive.

    You may ask yourself the opposite question...How can Lee Priest get fat in the offseason and then turn around and drop 40-60 pounds of fat in a couple of months? He responds very well to chemical cocktails...

    Also keep in mind that many retired pros choose to drop a lot of their muscle & weight when they retire. I think Charles Glass says that being 180 pounds at 50+ years of age is just way more comfortable then the 225+ pounds he use to compete at.
    Lee Priest, known for his candor and honesty to a fault, claims when on cycle he only does 200mg a week of juice.
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    yea if he mite 200mg a week of JUICE but that doesnt mean hes not doing 20ui of hgh and 20ui of slin 100mcg igf 400mg's MGF and god knows what else...
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    his response was that people never believe that he takes such a low dose of things. I believe the guy though - obviously he has great genetics - just look at his arms. He's what, like 4 foot 8?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilABowl View Post
    his response was that people never believe that he takes such a low dose of things. I believe the guy though - obviously he has great genetics - just look at his arms. He's what, like 4 foot 8?
    Lee Priest...actually he has said many different at times conflicting things...for example he claimed he never tried testosterone and gave a laughable reason as to why...I laughed but the interview was suppose to be serious...

    I think Lee has a wicked sense of humor and sometimes says & does things to entertain himself. He just got a tatoo on his face cus he said he always wanted one...

    At the same time his life is often an open book. Just a week ago it was rumored that he tried to kill himself & was in a Scottsdale hospital after the girl he lived w/ kicked him out.

    Turned out not to be true... at least the attempted suicide part... apparently he was kicked out though.

    Having said all of that I have seen enough in this sport to believe it is possible that Lee doesn't need much gear...some guys are hyper-responders. But I have seen enough of Lee to know that IF more juice would give him better gains he'd be on it in a flash...

    So who knows. But there are other growth factors he utilizes and also the list of those things he uses to diet down may include DNP which for some has the benefit of resenstizing the body to steroids.

    So again who knows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Lee Priest...actually he has said many different at times conflicting things...for example he claimed he never tried testosterone and gave a laughable reason as to why...I laughed but the interview was suppose to be serious...

    I think Lee has a wicked sense of humor and sometimes says & does things to entertain himself. He just got a tatoo on his face cus he said he always wanted one...

    At the same time his life is often an open book. Just a week ago it was rumored that he tried to kill himself & was in a Scottsdale hospital after the girl he lived w/ kicked him out.

    Turned out not to be true... at least the attempted suicide part... apparently he was kicked out though.

    Having said all of that I have seen enough in this sport to believe it is possible that Lee doesn't need much gear...some guys are hyper-responders. But I have seen enough of Lee to know that IF more juice would give him better gains he'd be on it in a flash...

    So who knows. But there are other growth factors he utilizes and also the list of those things he uses to diet down may include DNP which for some has the benefit of resenstizing the body to steroids.

    So again who knows.

    Dat,

    Do you know levrone personally? IMO the way he looks as a retiree vs the way he looked at his absolute peak is astonishing! and in such a short amount of time.

    16 weeks to gain all that back! that says something about 'muscle memory' now doesn't it? that, and like you mentioned, he is obviously hypersensitive to these chemicals.

    I would like to hear more about levrone's claims/ past.


    Dorian yates is another example. He looks like a totally different person. If these guys are just ON all the time during their career, and some "come off" upon retirement, doesnt it seem like there would be some serious crashing? I mean what kind of PCT does one need after years and years of constant AAS usage with little to no cessation (generalizations and assumptions of course). i would see no other option than TRT.
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    Lee is the man...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    Dat,

    I mean what kind of post cycle therapy does one need after years and years of constant anabolic steroids usage with little to no cessation (generalizations and assumptions of course). i would see no other option than TRT.
    Someone here once said a pro like Ron Coleman would either need his HTPA replaced, or a really really really long PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...IMO the way he looks as a retiree vs the way he looked at his absolute peak is astonishing! and in such a short amount of time.

    16 weeks to gain all that back! that says something about 'muscle memory' now doesn't it? that, and like you mentioned, he is obviously hypersensitive to these chemicals.

    I would like to hear more about levrone's claims/ past.
    Back when Kevin was half owner of that gym in Maryland he liked to party. He had his band going and he liked to have fun. He would literally stop working out for almost half the year and during this time he worked hard at trying to make his band a success. He also pursued acting a little bit.

    But when it came time to train and get ready for the Mr. Olympia he devoted himself totally to bodybuilding for those 6 months. IMHO he WAS a freak...a genetic freak. I don't know his exact protocol but it seems he could grow and later get quickly cut all while maintaining his size. He is hyper-sensitive to insulin/GH...he could use those hormones in quantity and coupled w/ a massive food intake just grow lean tissue.

    If most people tried that they would gain a LOT of fat...of course he used steroids but the KEY to understanding Kevin are the following:

    1. His is a gentetic freak as far as the LOOK of his body.
    2. He is a genetic freak & hyper-responder when it comes to insulin/GH


    As for muscle memory...the fact that the fascia surrounding and permeating the muscle has previously been stretched means that it is easier for him to regain size because the fascia is more pliable up to his previous stretch point...maybe fascia memory...

    ...keep in mind that one of the reasons a lot of guys use oil and synthol is to stretch the fascia so that their muscles can fill out quicker unconstrained. The oil will eventually be gone and in its place will be new muscle. Inject oil...stretch fascia...grow out muscle...repeat.



    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    Dorian yates is another example. He looks like a totally different person. If these guys are just ON all the time during their career, and some "come off" upon retirement, doesnt it seem like there would be some serious crashing? I mean what kind of post cycle therapy does one need after years and years of constant anabolic steroids usage with little to no cessation (generalizations and assumptions of course). i would see no other option than TRT.
    Many cruise for parts of the year and then run a cycle on top of that...there really is no PCT. I mean these guys are trying to maintain mass beyond their genetic limits...what choice do they have?

    Also a lot of non-pros never come off...its not uncommon to bump into a guy here and there who has been on for 3 straight years and now wants to come off and HOPES & PRAYS he will recover. Maybe he will...probably he won't.

    This leads to TRT for the rest of his life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    if you are juicing before hitting your natural max, then you'd loose anything over that natural max once you stop......Once your natural testosterone level is lowered, your max natural lean mass gets lowered too.
    This is a very necessary and informative post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Back when Kevin was half owner of that gym in Maryland he liked to party. He had his band going and he liked to have fun. He would literally stop working out for almost half the year and during this time he worked hard at trying to make his band a success. He also pursued acting a little bit.

    But when it came time to train and get ready for the Mr. Olympia he devoted himself totally to bodybuilding for those 6 months. IMHO he WAS a freak...a genetic freak. I don't know his exact protocol but it seems he could grow and later get quickly cut all while maintaining his size. He is hyper-sensitive to insulin/GH...he could use those hormones in quantity and coupled w/ a massive food intake just grow lean tissue.

    If most people tried that they would gain a LOT of fat...of course he used steroids but the KEY to understanding Kevin are the following:

    1. His is a gentetic freak as far as the LOOK of his body.
    2. He is a genetic freak & hyper-responder when it comes to insulin/GH


    As for muscle memory...the fact that the fascia surrounding and permeating the muscle has previously been stretched means that it is easier for him to regain size because the fascia is more pliable up to his previous stretch point...maybe fascia memory...

    ...keep in mind that one of the reasons a lot of guys use oil and synthol is to stretch the fascia so that their muscles can fill out quicker unconstrained. The oil will eventually be gone and in its place will be new muscle. Inject oil...stretch fascia...grow out muscle...repeat.





    Many cruise for parts of the year and then run a cycle on top of that...there really is no post cycle therapy. I mean these guys are trying to maintain mass beyond their genetic limits...what choice do they have?

    Also a lot of non-pros never come off...its not uncommon to bump into a guy here and there who has been on for 3 straight years and now wants to come off and HOPES & PRAYS he will recover. Maybe he will...probably he won't.

    This leads to TRT for the rest of his life.


    Levrone is definitely a freak. He had an awesome physique and to be able to totally detach from bodybuilding for half of the year, and then get in shape for the Mr. Olympia is amazing. I really wonder what type of protocols he would use for slin/GH. maybe not what "he" used but an example of a protocol that can be applied to theoretically gain that type of mass. Obviously his genetics are the key, but we can't do anything about that. The GH and slin is something anyone can apply.

    Coleman supposedly also took half of the year (or there abouts) and didnt train much during that time from what I know.

    I agree that someone doesn't need to be a pro to stay on gear for years on end, but I also think that it isnt necessary. Cruising in most cases should be considered ON, but really, compared to the "cycles" these guys run...the cruise is just a way to apply TRT early and at this point they probably are smart enough to realize that they will be "cruising" all the way into the grave, because recovering after that is probably just not going to happen.

    That being said, I still dont think all of these guys (speaking to the freakiest of freaks-the pro's) are ALL committing to lifelong steroid use. I've heard enough talk about some of them doing otherwise to believe that in the big picture its not always the case.

    bodybuilding is not the only drug influenced sport either. other pro and amatuer sports like football hockey and soccer are known for drug use. its a widespread thing.

    this may be quite an aside, but still relevant to where this discussion is leading:

    the thing that worries ME a lot about such long term steroid use is the issue of fertility. From one angle we can say well many of prior bodybuilders and ones today grow old and have a family, as goes for other sports and their athletes. On the second hand, we know that consistent TRT/steroid use can lead to a very small sperm count. (yes fertility drugs go a long way.... but I think prevention is best).

    i just wonder.....especially since I haven't come across too much about fertility concerns..

    It seems a lot of people are more concerned with the short term possible side effects.



    anything I read on synthol is condescending. However, using it to stretch the fascia is by no means stupid. In fact, it makes a lot of sense. but...I think deep tissue massage and stretching will be my alternative before site oil is needed.
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    When I'm layin on my back & I get an erection I'm suddenly taller than Lee Priest...


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    Kevin Levrone back then:



    Kevin today:

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    I've made the mistake of not keeping calories high enough to maintain the new gains post cycle, hence losing most of my gains.
    The most fundamental diet and exercise principles need to be under discipline and consistency to retain gains, without them you take a chance of losing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Kevin Levrone back then:



    Kevin today:


    the contrast is unbelievable. and to think that he claims to be able to get it all back in 16 weeks. that must be ALOT of insulin and GH. I wonder how much of the stuff he actually uses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    the contrast is unbelievable. and to think that he claims to be able to get it all back in 16 weeks. that must be ALOT of insulin and GH. I wonder how much of the stuff he actually uses.
    Plus we have to add "muscle memory" which includes a fascia that is now not a barrier to increased size back up to what it was stretched to previously and genetic freak.

    Actually Kevin had a great "old school physique" w/ the classic lines and great muscle bellies & he looked awesome...so I don't think high doses played as much a part in the early years. He kept trying to match up w/ the big Ronnie Coleman and when comparing his tight waist to RC's bloated stomach didn't give him the Mr.O he added a lot of bulk and his waist became less attractive and it just looked to beefy...IMHO (and that took high doses).

    As far as how much and what protocol etc...well his time off probably served as a prime in some respects and the GH/slin protocol that was used back then was more along the line of what Milos Sarcev openly discussed years ago.

    He carries a slimmer physique today because he is an actor not a bodybuilder...I think he is in a new movie coming out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Plus we have to add "muscle memory" which includes a fascia that is now not a barrier to increased size back up to what it was stretched to previously and genetic freak.

    Actually Kevin had a great "old school physique" w/ the classic lines and great muscle bellies & he looked awesome...so I don't think high doses played as much a part in the early years. He kept trying to match up w/ the big Ronnie Coleman and when comparing his tight waist to RC's bloated stomach didn't give him the Mr.O he added a lot of bulk and his waist became less attractive and it just looked to beefy...IMHO (and that took high doses).

    As far as how much and what protocol etc...well his time off probably served as a prime in some respects and the GH/slin protocol that was used back then was more along the line of what Milos Sarcev openly discussed years ago.

    He carries a slimmer physique today because he is an actor not a bodybuilder...I think he is in a new movie coming out.
    "well his time off probably served as a prime in some respects and the GH/slin protocol that was used back then was more along the line of what Milos Sarcev openly discussed years ago."

    Do you have a link/ copy of what Milos had to say. I'd be very interested. Sarcev's protocols for training etc intrigue me.
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    so say my genetic limit is 227 hypothetically speaking and i start juicing, if i get to 215 and maintain it posy cycle, will i be able to keep all of it even if i never do a cycle again because i have not gone past my genetic max?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbkhan87 View Post
    so say my genetic limit is 227 hypothetically speaking and i start juicing, if i get to 215 and maintain it posy cycle, will i be able to keep all of it even if i never do a cycle again because i have not gone past my genetic max?
    theoritcally yes, as long as training and diet and nonAAS supplementation was done to keep the muscle. Its not a matter of the muscle being gained with steroids its more dependant on genetic limits that define how much muscle can be carried without juice. This is why you want natural test production restored to its full potential asap. Again my first point is the deciding factor overall.
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    does that account for if i was natural as well. If there is any material on steroids maintainable gains and genetics please let me know and dont tell me to search i already have
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    there really isn't, and its largely because most people don't say "Aha i'm big enough now" and just maintain.
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    true i just got to 203 and am in the middle of my halo havoc cycle and all i wanted to do is break 200, now i want to break 220. btw, i love this stuff im maintaining my bf at 9% while gaining DRY weight, so far up 7 pounds but for the first 2 weeks i was running halo at 75mg solo now im running 75mg of halo plus 20 of havoc, i have cycle support too because tis is gonna tax my liver but all i can say is if i survived 6 weeks of superdrol at 40 ( i did this stupidly 3 years ago with an otc pct) than i can survive this doing it intelligently. pct is nolva, 6 bromo, retain and pegmgf. I jst want to go slean for 6 months afterwards and want to keep gaining not losing because im off
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    Question


    So continuing on the question asked......
    if one were to say gain 14 lbs muscle on the cycle, then keep 9 after PCT...


    Is it possible to keep that 9 lbs if you continue to work out hard and eat right??
    or Will it eventually disappear in time???
    and Will the gains stay if you were to do a cutting phase after your cycle???


    Just wondering cause im about to start my first cycle and wondering if its really worth the money......
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigEpZeino View Post
    Is it possible to keep that 9 lbs if you continue to work out hard and eat right??
    or Will it eventually disappear in time???
    you'd keep it so long as you weren't way over your genetic max. almost nobody really reaches that anyhow

    Quote Originally Posted by SigEpZeino View Post
    and Will the gains stay if you were to do a cutting phase after your cycle???
    so long as you let some time pass between the end of PCT and when you start the cut you wouldn't loose any more muscle during the cut than otherwise. Very specific wording there to "than otherwise". you still have the ability to loose muscle instead of fat depending on the details of your cut
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    reps to ya bro.....
    thanks for replying to it quickly

    I cant wait till I start my cycle
    hoping to put on some serious size over the summer
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    Obviously people here are 'guessing' at what their genetic limit is, would there be any way to estimate it based on current anatomical measurements? (frame size, bone width and length, muscle girths etc.)
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    nope, no way to tell at all. all about family history and genetics.
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    So if our father was the same height as we are now, but weighed about 30 lbs more of muscle when they were around our age then we still have room to compensate and keep most of our gains then if we were to cycle.....right???

    since our genetic limit is related to our parents.....

    someone please correct me if this is wrong, or if im missing something, I want to fully understand this genetic limit crap and how to keep our gains from a cycle
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    if you haven't been lifting and eating right for the past 10-15 years, then you aren't close enough to your genetic limit that it matters
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    Ohhhh the WTF is everyone making such a big deal about it on here.......

    Everyone was telling me in other threads if I am near my limit then I will lose it in due time..... but I am only 21 so thats straight.....

    thanks bro........that cleared everything up for me
    reps to ya if I could but I did earlier
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    if you haven't been lifting and eating right for the past 10-15 years, then you aren't close enough to your genetic limit that it matters
    the amount of years training has nothing to do with it. some guys reach genetic max quicker than others.
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    wow...unbelievable contrast!!! lmfao
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    the amount of years training has nothing to do with it. some guys reach genetic max quicker than others.
    I suppose if you have low testosterone levels its possible, but I can't really imagine your normal person hitting their max by 26, if they started at 16 and just were natural.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbkhan87 View Post
    ... at 40 ( i did this stupidly 3 years ago with an otc pct) ...
    "Genetic limit" is a generic phrase...

    At your stage of muscular development rate limiting growth is more dependent on the pliability of muscle fascia...

    Also keep in mind as you get older (for example your age ) the body wants to hold less muscle (or doesn't want to build as much muscle). Growth Hormone declining as we age has a lot to do with this limitation. Sex hormonal levels as well as balance and ratios also are more important as we age. For example a moderate reduction in estrogen might do more for us old guys then younger guys.

    Forget the concept of "genetic limit" bro ...at your age, current weight, BF% and height you still have the potential to put on and hold a lot more mass...I guarantee it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I suppose if you have low testosterone levels its possible, but I can't really imagine your normal person hitting their max by 26, if they started at 16 and just were natural.
    not only that. what about some one say of vietnamese bloodline and his family is all small boned and no one has ever been over 180lbs.....this guy if training for a few dedicated years could reach his limit very fast imo.
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