"dont tell the kids!" new steroid study
- 01-06-2008, 07:58 PM
"dont tell the kids!" new steroid study
from avantgarde on M&M
- 01-06-2008, 08:02 PM
- 01-06-2008, 08:03 PM
In trials for male contraception using
testosterone enanthate, only 65% of Caucasian men become
azoospermic (9, 10) This testosterone enanthate-induced
azoospermia is fully reversible with a mean time to recovery
of 3.7 months. Anabolic steroid abuse in excessively high
doses by bodybuilders leads to severely impaired sperm
concentrations, but even after prolonged use, sperm production
may return to normal (7). These findings show that
suppression of spermatogenesis by androgens is fully reversible,and make it most likely that this is also the case in
the treated men.
testosterone treatment, normalize
within 6 weeks after treatment. Only a subgroup of cases
showed a transitory hypersecretion of LH and FSH; moreover,
values in the normal range are found after 12-27
months. Thus, Brgmswig et al. (23) could not find any major
functional alteration of the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal
the view that variocele and maldescended testes and not testosterone treatment
caused the lower semen quality in the
tall men is corroborated by comparison of the tall men and
controls without these conditions. When these selected subgroups
were compared, the differences in semen variables
and hormones disappeared.
Finally, if previous testosterone treatment were of influence
on testicular function, a dose dependence of the effects
might be expected. However, when we calculated the total
dose of testosterone each tall man had received earlier, no
correlation with semen variables could be detected. This is
another indication that previous testosterone exposure does
not cause permanent impairment of testicular function.We conclude that high-dose testosterone treatment at puberty
for tall stature does not impair testicular function on a
long-term basis. Slightly decreased semen variables in the tall
men compared with a control group from the general population
may be caused by coexisting conditions such as varicoceles
and/or maldescended testes. Although there may be
objections against this type of treatment, these findings of a
long-term follow-up provide no argument against high-dose
testosterone treatment in boys with expected excessive
growth. The results also have far-reaching implications for
other uses of testosterone in normal men, e.g. for hormonal
contraception based on testosterone. However, it should be
kept in mind that we only investigated the effects of natural
testosterone (in form of its enanthate ester), and that the
effects of synthetic or modified androgens may be different.
01-06-2008, 08:08 PM
So there are no real threats of going permanently sterile. Interesting.
I also think that with HCG + HMG therapy, you can get those sperm a swimmin once again. HMG stimulates FSH (producing sperm) and upregulates leydig cells, which then get stimulated by HCG, releasing LH and producing more testosterone. I think this is the normal course for male fertilization treatment for someone on TRT/HRT aiming for children.
01-06-2008, 08:11 PM
the study was done to study effects of testosterone treatment in teens as a way of reducing height.
The study group ended up about 6 cm shorter (average) than projected. these peeps were in 6'6'' range, so they dwarf me anyways. study collected other data, including semen tests, homone tests, recovery, etc.
this was, if I recall, over ten years?
the results were interesting to say the least. nothing extremely groundbreaking, but shows that safe cycling will not destroy your body.
01-06-2008, 08:25 PM
Now I am no doctor, but I would not take this information, construe it, and go on a crazy cycle and think everything is going to come out straight. Be safe brothers.
01-06-2008, 08:35 PM
01-06-2008, 09:02 PM
01-06-2008, 09:29 PM
01-06-2008, 10:46 PM
I think this is a topic that should be discussed more. Especially the PREVENTION aspect. People reading this are concerned with the effect of their RESPONSIBLE steroid use/cycling and the possibility of low to non existent sperm count. I think the current attitude is that while ON we just accept that fact that our sperm production down regulates or near shuts down. The more hormonal changes that take place stands to reason that there is a greater chance of things not returning to normal. An example is the use of HCG ON cycle and its good job at making a smoother cycle and a smoother recovery. However using HCG alone doesnt fully cover the angle of sperm production management. This is where HMG comes in. I am not overly familiar with HMG nor how to use it, But i understand it is to FSH as HCG is to LH. so....I would be curious to hear more about how good a job it does at stimulating sperm production while using gear. If we take a better stab at prevention we'll have less to worry about and less to do later....
01-06-2008, 11:13 PM
I too am not very familiar with hMG, but tried doing some searches on it. Same journal turned up this older study from 93.
Failure of combined follicle-stimulating hormone-testosterone administration to initiate and/or maintain spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism [published erratum appears in J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Apr;78(4):846] -- Schaison e
didnt have time to read whole article, but according to abstract, 24 month tests were done using hcg+hmg vs FSH+test to induce spermatogenesis.
results showed FSH and exogenous T are not able to induce spermatogenesis, however, the study group administered hcg+hmg did induce spermatogenesis with normal motility and quality.
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Vol 77, 1545-1549, Copyright © 1993 by Endocrine Society
Failure of combined follicle-stimulating hormone-testosterone administration to initiate and/or maintain spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism [published erratum appears in J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Apr;78(4):846]
G Schaison, J Young, M Pholsena, K Nahoul and B Couzinet
Service d'Endocrinologie et des Maladies de la Reproduction, Hopital Bicetre, Kremlin, France.
In men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, prolonged treatment with LH and FSH induces spermatogenesis. To compare the respective role of exogenous testosterone and intratesticular testosterone on the induction and maintenance of spermatogenesis, 10 men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and without history of cryptorchidism were studied. They were treated with human gonadotropins (hMG; 150 IU FSH and LH and 1500 IU hCG, im, three times weekly) or pure FSH (150 IU, im, three times a week) and testosterone (T: 250 mg, im, once a week). Five men were treated first with hMG-hCG and then with pure FSH plus T. The other five men started with pure FSH plus T. Each treatment period lasted 24 months. In all men, hMG-hCG induced spermatogenesis after 24 months, with normal motility and quality. The combination of pure FSH and T was not able to induce spermatogenesis after 24 months. In addition, sperm count dropped dramatically to 0.3 +/- 0.1 x 10(6)/mL within 3 months and to 0 after 6 months when pure FSH and T followed [corrected] hMG-hCG. Plasma T levels were increased by both treatments, but significantly more after pure FSH and T (35.3 +/- 5.2 nmol/L) than after hMG-hCG (20.4 +/- 5.2 nmol/L; P < 0.05). Plasma estradiol levels after treatment with pure FSH and T were also increased, but the difference from those obtained during hMG-hCG treatment was not significant. In conclusion, in men with complete gonadotropin deficiency, FSH and exogenous T are not able to induce spermatogenesis. Furthermore, spermatogenesis induced by LH plus FSH (hMG-hCG) cannot be maintained when exogenous T replaced LH in the regimen. Thus, exogenous T is unable to replace LH (and intratesticular T) to induce spermatogenesis. These data are noteworthy in the prospect of male contraception after a complete blockade of gonadotropin activity.
Last edited by billm311; 01-06-2008 at 11:58 PM. Reason: format to ease reading
01-06-2008, 11:33 PM
just to clear up some basics for those tuning in:
hMG contains natural FSH and LH, purified from urine from postmenopausal women. (After menopause, women produce high levels of gonadotropins, which are excreted in their urine.)
In men with low testosterone and FSH, LH stimulates the production of testosterone, and FSH promotes the formation of sperm. If a semen analysis, LH, and FSH testing suggest that abnormal hormone levels are preventing sperm production, these gonadotropins may be prescribed to promote sperm formation.
Men may experience temporary breast enlargement.
when used for women as fertility drugs, Up to 35% of women who become pregnant after hMG/hCG or rFSH/hCG therapy have a miscarriage. This is higher than the risk of miscarriage in the general population.
looking on pubmed for more
01-06-2008, 11:55 PM
heres more, i cut them down to make easier to read:
Outcome of gonadotropin therapy for male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism at university affiliated male infertility centers: a 30-year retrospective study.Miyagawa Y, Tsujimura A, Matsumiya K, Takao T, Tohda A, Koga M, Takeyama M, Fujioka H, Takada S, Koide T, Okuyama A.
Department of Urology, Osaka University Graduate School of Medicine, Suita, Osaka, Japan.
PMID: 15879837 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Long-term administration of hCG/hMG for 12 to 240 months (average 56 +/- 11) resulted in sperm production in only 36% of the small testis subjects but in 71% of the large testis subjects. CONCLUSIONS: Initial TV values provide insight into phenotypic variables such as time of onset and severity in patients with primary or secondary HH, and may predict sperm output in response to hCG/hMG therapy.
Induction of spermatogenesis in idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with gonadotropins in older men.Samli MM, Demirbas M, Guler C.
Department of Urology, Afyon Kocatepe University, School of Medicine, Turkey. firstname.lastname@example.org
We investigated the treatment results in 6 azoospermic idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) cases that remained untreated 41-47 years of age. Patients received 1,000 to 5,000 IU hCG, 2-3 times per week, and 75 to 150 IU hMG, 2-3 times per week for 24 months. Testosterone level increased from 2.7 +/- 0.9 mIU/L to 22 +/- 7.04 mIU/L with treatment; testicular volume increased by 4.6 ml during the treatment. Sperm were detected in the ejaculate in 3 out of 6 patients on the 22nd, 18th, and 15th month of treatment. 3 patients underwent testicular biopsy; histopathology revealed tubular hyalinization. Spermatogenesis in older men with IHH was restored by exogenous gonadotropins.
PMID: 15277005 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Maintenance of spermatogenesis in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal men with human chorionic gonadotropin alone.Depenbusch M, von Eckardstein S, Simoni M, Nieschlag E.
Institute of Reproductive Medicine of the University, Domagkstr. 11, Munster D-48149, Germany.
OBJECTIVE: It is generally accepted that both gonadotropins LH and FSH are necessary for initiation and maintenance of spermatogenesis. We investigated the relative importance of FSH for the maintenance of spermatogenesis in hypogonadotropic men. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: 13 patients with gonadotropin deficiency due to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH), Kallmann syndrome or pituitary insufficiency were analyzed retrospectively. They had been treated with gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) (n=1) or human chorionic gonadotropin/human menopausal gonadotropin (hCG/hMG) (n=12) for induction of spermatogenesis. After successful induction of spermatogenesis they were treated with hCG alone for maintenance of secondary sex characteristics and in order to check whether sperm production could be maintained by hCG alone. Serum LH, FSH and testosterone levels, semen parameters and testicular Volume were determined every three to six Months. RESULTS: After spermatogenesis had been successfully induced by treatment with GnRH or hCG/hMG, hCG treatment alone continued for 3-24 Months. After 12 Months under hCG alone, sperm counts decreased gradually but remained present in all patients except one who became azoospermic. Testicular Volume decreased only slightly and reached 87% of the Volume achieved with hCG/hMG. During treatment with hCG alone, FSH and LH levels were suppressed to below the detection limit of the assay. CONCLUSION: Once spermatogenesis is induced in patients with secondary hypogonadism by GnRH or hCG/hMG treatment, it can be maintained in most of the patients qualitatively by hCG alone, in the absence of FSH, for extended periods. However, the decreasing sperm counts indicate that FSH is essential for maintenance of quantitatively normal spermatogenesis.
PMID: 12444893 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
seeing a pattern?
there are a lot more, but my eyes hurt.
seems like when used together they work well. Not 100%, and not right away, but the studies are all done with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients. Some studies showed more promise than others. This might be a good way for those that have access to help PREVENT problems with spermatogenesis?
Last edited by billm311; 01-07-2008 at 12:02 AM. Reason: format to ease reading
01-07-2008, 02:14 AM
01-07-2008, 09:29 AM
01-07-2008, 10:21 AM
So I would be lead to think that if my natural production of gonadotrophins were suppressed by a testosterone based steriod cycle, hMG+hcg would be a good tool to aid in the fight to normalize my endrocrine system.
Until we can see more anectdotal evidence for this specific purpose, it remains theoretical, but has backing as to it efficacy.
I havent heard of too many people using it, and maybe its harder to source, but if you have a kickass doctor, it would probable be a solid addition to your safe cycling practice.
01-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Looks good but I agree..the concern has seldom been about total sterilization, rather it's mostly been about whether or not your hormonal millieu will ever be the same again which I tend to think it will not if you use repeatedly.
01-07-2008, 12:54 PM
01-07-2008, 01:39 PM
01-07-2008, 01:50 PM
Either way, with PCT or without I'm fairly convinced that you are sacrificing normal hormonal function for having muscles. PCT just tries to tip the balance a little more in our favor.
01-10-2008, 06:02 PM
as for the HCG/HMG I may try to look into it more and see if I can get my doc to hook me up with some. That is If I decide its worth my while to use while ON. I have to check into some of those other studies....
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