"dont tell the kids!" new steroid study

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    Talking "dont tell the kids!" new steroid study



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    cliff notes pls?
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    In trials for male contraception using
    testosterone enanthate, only 65% of Caucasian men become
    azoospermic (9, 10) This testosterone enanthate-induced
    azoospermia is fully reversible with a mean time to recovery
    of 3.7 months. Anabolic steroid abuse in excessively high
    doses by bodybuilders leads to severely impaired sperm
    concentrations, but even after prolonged use, sperm production
    may return to normal (7). These findings show that
    suppression of spermatogenesis by androgens is fully reversible,
    and make it most likely that this is also the case in
    the treated men.

    testosterone treatment, normalize
    within 6 weeks after treatment. Only a subgroup of cases
    showed a transitory hypersecretion of LH and FSH; moreover,
    values in the normal range are found after 12-27
    months. Thus, Brgmswig et al. (23) could not find any major
    functional alteration of the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal
    axis.

    the view that variocele and maldescended testes and not testosterone treatment
    caused the lower semen quality in the
    tall men is corroborated by comparison of the tall men and
    controls without these conditions. When these selected subgroups
    were compared, the differences in semen variables
    and hormones disappeared.

    Finally, if previous testosterone treatment were of influence
    on testicular function, a dose dependence of the effects
    might be expected. However, when we calculated the total
    dose of testosterone each tall man had received earlier, no
    correlation with semen variables could be detected. This is
    another indication that previous testosterone exposure does
    not cause permanent impairment of testicular function.
    We conclude that high-dose testosterone treatment at puberty
    for tall stature does not impair testicular function on a
    long-term basis. Slightly decreased semen variables in the tall
    men compared with a control group from the general population
    may be caused by coexisting conditions such as varicoceles
    and/or maldescended testes. Although there may be
    objections against this type of treatment, these findings of a
    long-term follow-up provide no argument against high-dose
    testosterone treatment in boys with expected excessive
    growth. The results also have far-reaching implications for
    other uses of testosterone in normal men, e.g. for hormonal
    contraception based on testosterone. However, it should be
    kept in mind that we only investigated the effects of natural
    testosterone (in form of its enanthate ester), and that the
    effects of synthetic or modified androgens may be different.


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    So there are no real threats of going permanently sterile. Interesting.

    I also think that with HCG + HMG therapy, you can get those sperm a swimmin once again. HMG stimulates FSH (producing sperm) and upregulates leydig cells, which then get stimulated by HCG, releasing LH and producing more testosterone. I think this is the normal course for male fertilization treatment for someone on TRT/HRT aiming for children.
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    the study was done to study effects of testosterone treatment in teens as a way of reducing height.
    The study group ended up about 6 cm shorter (average) than projected. these peeps were in 6'6'' range, so they dwarf me anyways. study collected other data, including semen tests, homone tests, recovery, etc.

    this was, if I recall, over ten years?


    the results were interesting to say the least. nothing extremely groundbreaking, but shows that safe cycling will not destroy your body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    So there are no real threats of going permanently sterile. Interesting.

    I also think that with HCG + HMG therapy, you can get those sperm a swimmin once again. HMG stimulates FSH (producing sperm) and upregulates leydig cells, which then get stimulated by HCG, releasing LH and producing more testosterone. I think this is the normal course for male fertilization treatment for someone on TRT/HRT aiming for children.
    this is what I gather from it as well. The study did show reduced sperm count, and we know from previous knowledge that test will reduce sperm production, FSH, and LH. What you have outlined sounds right.



    Now I am no doctor, but I would not take this information, construe it, and go on a crazy cycle and think everything is going to come out straight. Be safe brothers.
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    This is a very interesting article. Quite informative. So, thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleGuyinNY View Post
    This is a very interesting article. Quite informative. So, thank you.


    ha, you are quite welcome
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    Quote Originally Posted by billm311 View Post
    However, it should be
    kept in mind that we only investigated the effects of natural
    testosterone (in form of its enanthate ester), and that the
    effects of synthetic or modified androgens may be different.


    i just wanted to quote this again and make the point to others reading this that it was only done with TEST and this doesnt mean you can take an indefinate oral cycle or even non stop tren or deca or the like and get away with no permanent effects or possible permanent shutdown..... other then that quite an informative read and makes me want to run test all the more... why cant they make it orally bioavailable damnit!?!?!?
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    I think this is a topic that should be discussed more. Especially the PREVENTION aspect. People reading this are concerned with the effect of their RESPONSIBLE steroid use/cycling and the possibility of low to non existent sperm count. I think the current attitude is that while ON we just accept that fact that our sperm production down regulates or near shuts down. The more hormonal changes that take place stands to reason that there is a greater chance of things not returning to normal. An example is the use of HCG ON cycle and its good job at making a smoother cycle and a smoother recovery. However using HCG alone doesnt fully cover the angle of sperm production management. This is where HMG comes in. I am not overly familiar with HMG nor how to use it, But i understand it is to FSH as HCG is to LH. so....I would be curious to hear more about how good a job it does at stimulating sperm production while using gear. If we take a better stab at prevention we'll have less to worry about and less to do later....
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    I too am not very familiar with hMG, but tried doing some searches on it. Same journal turned up this older study from 93.

    Failure of combined follicle-stimulating hormone-testosterone administration to initiate and/or maintain spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism [published erratum appears in J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Apr;78(4):846] -- Schaison e

    didnt have time to read whole article, but according to abstract, 24 month tests were done using hcg+hmg vs FSH+test to induce spermatogenesis.

    results showed FSH and exogenous T are not able to induce spermatogenesis, however, the study group administered hcg+hmg did induce spermatogenesis with normal motility and quality.



    Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Vol 77, 1545-1549, Copyright 1993 by Endocrine Society
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ARTICLES

    Failure of combined follicle-stimulating hormone-testosterone administration to initiate and/or maintain spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism [published erratum appears in J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Apr;78(4):846]
    G Schaison, J Young, M Pholsena, K Nahoul and B Couzinet
    Service d'Endocrinologie et des Maladies de la Reproduction, Hopital Bicetre, Kremlin, France.

    In men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, prolonged treatment with LH and FSH induces spermatogenesis. To compare the respective role of exogenous testosterone and intratesticular testosterone on the induction and maintenance of spermatogenesis, 10 men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and without history of cryptorchidism were studied. They were treated with human gonadotropins (hMG; 150 IU FSH and LH and 1500 IU hCG, im, three times weekly) or pure FSH (150 IU, im, three times a week) and testosterone (T: 250 mg, im, once a week). Five men were treated first with hMG-hCG and then with pure FSH plus T. The other five men started with pure FSH plus T. Each treatment period lasted 24 months. In all men, hMG-hCG induced spermatogenesis after 24 months, with normal motility and quality. The combination of pure FSH and T was not able to induce spermatogenesis after 24 months. In addition, sperm count dropped dramatically to 0.3 +/- 0.1 x 10(6)/mL within 3 months and to 0 after 6 months when pure FSH and T followed [corrected] hMG-hCG. Plasma T levels were increased by both treatments, but significantly more after pure FSH and T (35.3 +/- 5.2 nmol/L) than after hMG-hCG (20.4 +/- 5.2 nmol/L; P < 0.05). Plasma estradiol levels after treatment with pure FSH and T were also increased, but the difference from those obtained during hMG-hCG treatment was not significant. In conclusion, in men with complete gonadotropin deficiency, FSH and exogenous T are not able to induce spermatogenesis. Furthermore, spermatogenesis induced by LH plus FSH (hMG-hCG) cannot be maintained when exogenous T replaced LH in the regimen. Thus, exogenous T is unable to replace LH (and intratesticular T) to induce spermatogenesis. These data are noteworthy in the prospect of male contraception after a complete blockade of gonadotropin activity.
    Last edited by billm311; 01-07-2008 at 12:58 AM. Reason: format to ease reading
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    just to clear up some basics for those tuning in:

    hMG contains natural FSH and LH, purified from urine from postmenopausal women. (After menopause, women produce high levels of gonadotropins, which are excreted in their urine.)

    In men with low testosterone and FSH, LH stimulates the production of testosterone, and FSH promotes the formation of sperm. If a semen analysis, LH, and FSH testing suggest that abnormal hormone levels are preventing sperm production, these gonadotropins may be prescribed to promote sperm formation.

    Men may experience temporary breast enlargement.

    when used for women as fertility drugs, Up to 35% of women who become pregnant after hMG/hCG or rFSH/hCG therapy have a miscarriage. This is higher than the risk of miscarriage in the general population.

    looking on pubmed for more
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    heres more, i cut them down to make easier to read:

    Outcome of gonadotropin therapy for male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism at university affiliated male infertility centers: a 30-year retrospective study.Miyagawa Y, Tsujimura A, Matsumiya K, Takao T, Tohda A, Koga M, Takeyama M, Fujioka H, Takada S, Koide T, Okuyama A.
    Department of Urology, Osaka University Graduate School of Medicine, Suita, Osaka, Japan.
    PMID: 15879837 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Long-term administration of hCG/hMG for 12 to 240 months (average 56 +/- 11) resulted in sperm production in only 36% of the small testis subjects but in 71% of the large testis subjects. CONCLUSIONS: Initial TV values provide insight into phenotypic variables such as time of onset and severity in patients with primary or secondary HH, and may predict sperm output in response to hCG/hMG therapy.



    Induction of spermatogenesis in idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with gonadotropins in older men.Samli MM, Demirbas M, Guler C.
    Department of Urology, Afyon Kocatepe University, School of Medicine, Turkey. msamli@tr.net

    We investigated the treatment results in 6 azoospermic idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) cases that remained untreated 41-47 years of age. Patients received 1,000 to 5,000 IU hCG, 2-3 times per week, and 75 to 150 IU hMG, 2-3 times per week for 24 months. Testosterone level increased from 2.7 +/- 0.9 mIU/L to 22 +/- 7.04 mIU/L with treatment; testicular volume increased by 4.6 ml during the treatment. Sperm were detected in the ejaculate in 3 out of 6 patients on the 22nd, 18th, and 15th month of treatment. 3 patients underwent testicular biopsy; histopathology revealed tubular hyalinization. Spermatogenesis in older men with IHH was restored by exogenous gonadotropins.

    PMID: 15277005 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Maintenance of spermatogenesis in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal men with human chorionic gonadotropin alone.Depenbusch M, von Eckardstein S, Simoni M, Nieschlag E.
    Institute of Reproductive Medicine of the University, Domagkstr. 11, Munster D-48149, Germany.

    OBJECTIVE: It is generally accepted that both gonadotropins LH and FSH are necessary for initiation and maintenance of spermatogenesis. We investigated the relative importance of FSH for the maintenance of spermatogenesis in hypogonadotropic men. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: 13 patients with gonadotropin deficiency due to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH), Kallmann syndrome or pituitary insufficiency were analyzed retrospectively. They had been treated with gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) (n=1) or human chorionic gonadotropin/human menopausal gonadotropin (hCG/hMG) (n=12) for induction of spermatogenesis. After successful induction of spermatogenesis they were treated with hCG alone for maintenance of secondary sex characteristics and in order to check whether sperm production could be maintained by hCG alone. Serum LH, FSH and testosterone levels, semen parameters and testicular Volume were determined every three to six Months. RESULTS: After spermatogenesis had been successfully induced by treatment with GnRH or hCG/hMG, hCG treatment alone continued for 3-24 Months. After 12 Months under hCG alone, sperm counts decreased gradually but remained present in all patients except one who became azoospermic. Testicular Volume decreased only slightly and reached 87% of the Volume achieved with hCG/hMG. During treatment with hCG alone, FSH and LH levels were suppressed to below the detection limit of the assay. CONCLUSION: Once spermatogenesis is induced in patients with secondary hypogonadism by GnRH or hCG/hMG treatment, it can be maintained in most of the patients qualitatively by hCG alone, in the absence of FSH, for extended periods. However, the decreasing sperm counts indicate that FSH is essential for maintenance of quantitatively normal spermatogenesis.

    PMID: 12444893 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    seeing a pattern?

    there are a lot more, but my eyes hurt.

    seems like when used together they work well. Not 100%, and not right away, but the studies are all done with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients. Some studies showed more promise than others. This might be a good way for those that have access to help PREVENT problems with spermatogenesis?
    Last edited by billm311; 01-07-2008 at 01:02 AM. Reason: format to ease reading
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    the human body always adapts..
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    Quote Originally Posted by billm311 View Post
    heres more, i cut them down to make easier to read:












    seeing a pattern?

    there are a lot more, but my eyes hurt.

    seems like when used together they work well. Not 100%, and not right away, but the studies are all done with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients. Some studies showed more promise than others. This might be a good way for those that have access to help PREVENT problems with spermatogenesis?


    thats great info man! yea i hope it does an even better job at prevention as it does at trying to fix the issue in men with a long term pre existing problem such as hypgonadism....
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    thats great info man! yea i hope it does an even better job at prevention as it does at trying to fix the issue in men with a long term pre existing problem such as hypgonadism....
    None of the studies had used it for that exact purpose, I guess these universities aren't conducting studies so that us juicers can live better lives, but, from the existing evidence, and trust me there were a lot more studies and they all showed when combined they work.

    So I would be lead to think that if my natural production of gonadotrophins were suppressed by a testosterone based steriod cycle, hMG+hcg would be a good tool to aid in the fight to normalize my endrocrine system.

    Until we can see more anectdotal evidence for this specific purpose, it remains theoretical, but has backing as to it efficacy.

    I havent heard of too many people using it, and maybe its harder to source, but if you have a kickass doctor, it would probable be a solid addition to your safe cycling practice.
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    Looks good but I agree..the concern has seldom been about total sterilization, rather it's mostly been about whether or not your hormonal millieu will ever be the same again which I tend to think it will not if you use repeatedly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    Looks good but I agree..the concern has seldom been about total sterilization, rather it's mostly been about whether or not your hormonal millieu will ever be the same again which I tend to think it will not if you use repeatedly.
    Yes, but how does this translate to real world gains and body composition?? I mean, i see juicers every day who are off juice w/ no PCT, and in all honesty dont lose all that much... and we all know that their body is in a hormonal wreck. If an individual were to use HCG/nolva etc. in a proper pct... I dont see the possible slight decrease in endogenous production as really making a difference physique-wise. What do ya'all think? - HTTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopypants View Post
    i just wanted to quote this again and make the point to others reading this that it was only done with TEST and this doesnt mean you can take an indefinate oral cycle or even non stop tren or deca or the like and get away with no permanent effects or possible permanent shutdown..... other then that quite an informative read and makes me want to run test all the more... why cant they make it orally bioavailable damnit!?!?!?
    Dually noted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HARDtotheCORE View Post
    Yes, but how does this translate to real world gains and body composition?? I mean, i see juicers every day who are off juice w/ no post cycle therapy, and in all honesty dont lose all that much... and we all know that their body is in a hormonal wreck. If an individual were to use HCG/nolva etc. in a proper post cycle therapy... I dont see the possible slight decrease in endogenous production as really making a difference physique-wise. What do ya'all think? - HTTC
    More or less true in my opinion. PCT is going to help retain a few of those pounds gained during a cycle. I think the bigger reason to use it is to try to offset some of the long term damage that can occur to the hormonal environment..ie prevent severe hypogonadism..but also to prevent the sort of hormonal environment that is conducive to gynecomastia.

    Either way, with PCT or without I'm fairly convinced that you are sacrificing normal hormonal function for having muscles. PCT just tries to tip the balance a little more in our favor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    More or less true in my opinion. post cycle therapy is going to help retain a few of those pounds gained during a cycle. I think the bigger reason to use it is to try to offset some of the long term damage that can occur to the hormonal environment..ie prevent severe hypogonadism..but also to prevent the sort of hormonal environment that is conducive to gynecomastia.

    Either way, with PCT or without I'm fairly convinced that you are sacrificing normal hormonal function for having muscles. PCT just tries to tip the balance a little more in our favor.
    yea i think some people can go a bit overboard on PCT, however it is in their right to do so...I mean if doing it correctly anything extra may help (or rather not hurt) but may also not be NECESSARY.

    as for the HCG/HMG I may try to look into it more and see if I can get my doc to hook me up with some. That is If I decide its worth my while to use while ON. I have to check into some of those other studies....
  

  
 

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