The Off Cycle Thread

pudzian2

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Alright enough about what works for ON cycle. lets get thinking about OFF time periods. Periods of recovery and baseline boring-ness for lack of a better term. My mindset towards the whole thing is that I look at being ON is an investment requiring certain sacrifice. This investment will then benefit me in the future if I maintain it and monitor it. I do believe that any gains beyond a certain genetic limit will slowly be lost when not using substances or practices to maintain that. It's just what the body wants. However I think many people rely too heavily on being "ON" and think that OFF time is wasteful. Well i find this attitude conducive to nothing but risk and eventual dependence (be it psychological or medical). My personal standards are to make the necessary sacrifices to achieve my goal without sacrificing health. My body is my temple. Its the only one I was given and I will treat it accordingly. This should be the attitude around here....

anyway, we shouldn't be on a constant roller coaster of gaining and loosing. it makes for less net benefit and more use of gear and drugs. I think that we should invest more time in maximizing the OFF time to at least hold onto the muscle that we were assisted in gaining.

what I can think of is:

-clean diet: probably most important. the more consistent and quality this is the easier it is to manipulate the physique.

-PREVENTING OVERTRAINING: I'd say when OFF cycle the best workout program (at least for me and IMO) would be undertraining intentionally. Keeping intensity high and weight high, but minimizing volume compared to ON cycle. I will probably be adapting a modified powerlifting routine off cycle. I will use a lot of Compound movements like squatting and Deadlifting. The natural hormonal responses to such exercises are very beneficial. Slacking on smart training will probably lead to catabolism.

-Preventing catabolism:
Cortisol SUCKS. I think when OFF I will employ a cortisol suppression / control regime. I use about 2g vitamin C a day with about 1g of it being after a workout for cortisol control. Additionally I will add Relora and maybe cycle it with something like Retain 2. Proper sleep and nutrition (food and supplements) will lead to less stress and thereby less cortisol.

IGF-1 and other peptides would be a good way to maintain and even possibly gain some LBM while not on steroids.

Creatine can help keep muscles full and strong

BCAA's are going to be a staple for their anti-catabolic properties

bulk nettle root is something I will use year round for its various benefits (not limited to test boosting and SHBG manipulation).




the above can just act as a starting point. It is My opinion and current strategy. I am sure other's have opinions and comments. Possibly changes to suggest to the information.
 
CROWLER

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Stoked! ;)


Crowler
 
azr101

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Cortisol can also be lowered by phosphatidylserine, I read a study showing this at a daily dose of 600mg. I've had pretty good response with it, especially after leg days. The only downside is it's fairly expensive.
 

pudzian2

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Cortisol can also be lowered by phosphatidylserine, I read a study showing this at a daily dose of 600mg. I've had pretty good response with it, especially after leg days. The only downside is it's fairly expensive.
yea it could get pricey. but good call
 
matthew76

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Crowler - Stoked is the same thing as Post Cycle Support, correct?
 

pudzian2

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Crowler - Stoked is the same thing as Post Cycle Support, correct?
post cycle support would be a great thing to incorporate into an off cycle maintenance period and can be safely used with life support for overall organ support.

--u guys make some good stuff
 
CROWLER

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Crowler - Stoked is the same thing as Post Cycle Support, correct?
You are CORRECT SIR! :drunk:

BTW Matt, Merry Christmas buddy. Haven't talked/posted to each other much lately. Take care.


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matthew76

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You are CORRECT SIR! :drunk:

BTW Matt, Merry Christmas buddy. Haven't talked/posted to each other much lately. Take care.


CROWLER
Merry Christmas to you too!

On a side note - I'm 25 days in to my PCT using Post Cycle Support (only) and truely loving it!

Great Job!
 
sfearl1

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pudz, have i ever told you how awesome you are for these posts??? i think this stuff, and then sign on, and you have compiled your thoughts into a well organized post!! nice work brother! i was just thinking about finding a safe, simple, and effective stack that could be incorporated in the true 'off' season that could be run for extended periods to maximize gains while natural. you might have to compile some of these threads into a 'handbook' of sorts that could become a sticky for cycling and post cycle. ..
 

pudzian2

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pudz, have i ever told you how awesome you are for these posts??? i think this stuff, and then sign on, and you have compiled your thoughts into a well organized post!! nice work brother! i was just thinking about finding a safe, simple, and effective stack that could be incorporated in the true 'off' season that could be run for extended periods to maximize gains while natural. you might have to compile some of these threads into a 'handbook' of sorts that could become a sticky for cycling and post cycle. ..
thank you for the kind words Sfearl. I really appreciate your your compliments, and similar mentality towards bodybuilding theory.

yea I think I will spend some time tonight and go through all of my threads similar to this one and make it into one document. And then organize and post it up somewhere. THen it can be edited and maybe stickied. THe thing is I don't believe in any one protocol. Things change as we progress and as technology changes. So whatever, the sticky can be updated! haha.
 
TheeBC

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awesome pudz. Spend some of hte day planning the cycle from our PM convo. Looks like around all supporting sups for 4 months is around 500 bucks.
 

pudzian2

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awesome pudz. Spend some of hte day planning the cycle from our PM convo. Looks like around all supporting sups for 4 months is around 500 bucks.
yea it is not too bad money wise. I think people who dont invest enough thought into maintaining OFF cycle gains have a higher chance of using too much / abusing gear. (these terms can be very subjective though).
 
celc5

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Nice post bro. I just asked these EXACT questions a week or 2 ago and got ZERO response.

This whole concept is certainly a frustrating whirlwind, especially for those of us who are infants in the hormonal realm.

I think something that I do is become locked into a plan. I tend to get regimented, plateau after 3 or 4 weeks of even a well-designed plan, and then just continue the plan...because it worked for 3 or 4 weeks, so it must be good, right?

Maybe the solution for me would be to shake up diet and training more frequently?
 

pudzian2

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Nice post bro. I just asked these EXACT questions a week or 2 ago and got ZERO response.

This whole concept is certainly a frustrating whirlwind, especially for those of us who are infants in the hormonal realm.

I think something that I do is become locked into a plan. I tend to get regimented, plateau after 3 or 4 weeks of even a well-designed plan, and then just continue the plan...because it worked for 3 or 4 weeks, so it must be good, right?

Maybe the solution for me would be to shake up diet and training more frequently?
As far as training I have found the best thing for me is instinctual training. I go in with a plan. I say, hey im going to do 12 sets of chest today: 4 movements at 3 sets each. And I want my reps between 6-8 for the first few compound movements and between 10-15 for the more isolated movements. From there I sort of pick and choose. I have noticed that if i do the same exact routine more than 2 weeks straight, it will not help me move up in the world.


As far as hormones go, well at this point, just trying to get into competition, I don't wish to resort to super often hormone cycling. I believe there can be methods of retaining gains off cylce that are just as educated an dthought out as the cycle itself. Like i said the roller coaster effect is not only depressing but doesnt seem healthy. If I am going to invest time, money, health, and effort into a cycle, I want to do EVERYTHING i can to maintain those gains. For now I am sticking to the 12 on 12 off type protocol for hormones. (that could change of course...)


i think the main concern of being OFF is catabolism. That is why i think things like BCAA's, cortisol modulators, super regimented diet and sleep patterns, and under training are good ideas. Also, I think that if one is to choose to stay OFF longer than say 12 weeks, then maybe every so often running a mild (methyl or non) ph or steroid like epistane or proviron or something with like 2 weeks on 2 weeks off or whatever. (I am not sure about pulsing, probably becuase I haven't tried it...)These compounds are not terribly suppressive, and should help the body situate itself in a decent anabolic/anti-catabolic state.


^^the only issue I can see here is the slight rebound that there may be. (which could take away from complete off cycle recovery.-i guess if one wishes to do this then he should make sure his blood work is in check already and just wants to stay "off" for a longer time, but not loose too much of his past gains. )Of course any hormone we administer will be suppressive to some degree at some point, hopefully this method of use will prove more beneficial than harmful.
 
UnrealMachine

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Pulsing something like Epi works pretty well and the shutdown is very minor. I did 8 weeks pulsing up to 50mg and it was great, as Dr. D said there's testicular rebound on the off days, it's only ED Epi, or pulsing a compound like SD or M1T that can give you complete shutdown.

Some low-shutdown pulsing might fit in pretty well between longer cycles of anabolics, for instance you could easily accomplish a phase of leaning up between cycles while improving strength. I think this would require plenty of time between cycles and for the big cycles to not be too heavy on orals, the liver deserves a break.

My thinking has been that after a cycle you would want to continue to bulk for a while to make sure muscle mass is retained, and this would transition into a clean bulk. Finally in the 4-8 weeks before the next cycle, the clean bulk would transition into a recomp where calories are decreased a little further every week. This idea comes from DatBrue's "priming." Reduce calories until you are at the point of losing muscle/strength.

Then suddenly the next cycles starts up and you allow yourself a massive influx of clean calories. Sounds like a great idea to help the gains along.
 

neverstop

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My thinking has been that after a cycle you would want to continue to bulk for a while to make sure muscle mass is retained, and this would transition into a clean bulk. Finally in the 4-8 weeks before the next cycle, the clean bulk would transition into a recomp where calories are decreased a little further every week. This idea comes from DatBrue's "priming." Reduce calories until you are at the point of losing muscle/strength.

Then suddenly the next cycles starts up and you allow yourself a massive influx of clean calories. Sounds like a great idea to help the gains along.
this is interesting..... i guess the idea is that since your body has been getting used to a calorie deficit it then over compensates and you slam it with nutrients/hormones/training and it explodes since all your receptors are regulated?

have you don this? any links to more info?

usually i bulk pretty hard for teh month before a cycle to try to put some fat and weight on since i have a hard time eating enough when "on" perhaps i am hampering my gains...
 

neverstop

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by the way, i really like IGF between cycles and using naturual test boosters (trib, zma, etc..)

mostly just to keep things interesting, igf works but its pretty minimal compared to 750mg of test a week

going to be experimenting with IGF for 4 weeks then GHRP6 for four weeks with 2 weeks of overlap ending in january before my next cycle too, to try to build some new muscle cells and make gains between cycles.

on a side note after doing IGF i'm starting to think that most of what makes Tren so awesome is due to the way it upregulates your igf receptors and causes your liver to simultaneously make more IGF. ie: the fact that tren gains seem to last (igf making new cells), you can also make gains while eating less (igf shuttling more food into your muscles and wasting less), etc...
 

pudzian2

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by the way, i really like IGF between cycles and using naturual test boosters (trib, zma, etc..)

mostly just to keep things interesting, igf works but its pretty minimal compared to 750mg of test a week

going to be experimenting with IGF for 4 weeks then GHRP6 for four weeks with 2 weeks of overlap ending in january before my next cycle too, to try to build some new muscle cells and make gains between cycles.

on a side note after doing IGF i'm starting to think that most of what makes Tren so awesome is due to the way it upregulates your igf receptors and causes your liver to simultaneously make more IGF. ie: the fact that tren gains seem to last (igf making new cells), you can also make gains while eating less (igf shuttling more food into your muscles and wasting less), etc...
yea im tren'ing it up in my next cycle. I'm very attracted to it's benefits.


UNREAL: that method sounds interesting. I never like to bulk too hard, meaning I always eat quite clean. It hasn't hampered my gains to date. I was actually thinking of just maintenance/recomp while OFF, although it sounds optimistic, I think it could work. (I would probably favor just maintenance.)

i hate to put on too much fat weight, although it is sometimes necessary.I believe in the "apply simple principles over a long period of time." which Is why I'm starting to diet for the show now. (of course not hardcore but still Im getting in the habit of very strict dieting and seeing what works and doesnt that way its not a big rush).My next cycle for example is more of a cutter since IT will ride me into my first show, that being said, I wouldn't really like to bulk up alot more (fat wise) between this cycle and the next. I suppose its goal dependent. THere is less of a risk of catabolism when your bulking post cycle, but the hormonal situation also makes it easier to gain fat and not muscle.....
 

pudzian2

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sorry guys. havent been on in a few days. PM's Cleared! and BC i was going to use Tren Ace
 

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