Once a year Cycles Possibly Good for HPTA?

[FrankJ]

Check this out...

Long-Term Effects of (Natural) Bodybuilding on Endogenous Testosterone Levels

It shows that advanced bodybuilders may become hypogonadal due to their testes becoming desensitized to the LH pulses that regularly accompany weight training.

Well, when on cycle, your balls get a nice long rest from LH pulses, so might it be possible that they regain some of that sensitivity to LH?

 

[daniel35]

You know I've been thinking more and more about a long month break from all lifting. Not so much from accute overtraining, but just from a general feeling like it would be good for me, and this article probably will be the deciding factor to make me do it. I have lifted for the past 10 years with only one 3 week break because of shoulder surgery, but besides that maybe 1 or 2 seperate single week breaks the whole time. So my plan is for the month of January, light cardio only for me, and then hopefully I fell like going balls to the walls the rest of the year. And also maybe the last week of december a fruit/vegie juice only diet to clear out my lymphatic system.

 

[paulieg]

Could you post more on this fruit/vegie diet or pm me the info, thanks. I am on week three of a mandatory break from all weight lifting due to a hernia surgery. I just started cardio again one week ago. I'm not digging this break at all and can't wait to get back to the iron. One good thing, my joints are thanking me. I haven't missed more than 4 days all year. I guess after 10 years straight a month break could be beneficial.

 

[LilPsychotic]

Could you post more on this fruit/vegie diet or pm me the info, thanks. I am on week three of a mandatory break from all weight lifting due to a hernia surgery. I just started cardio again one week ago. I'm not digging this break at all and can't wait to get back to the iron. One good thing, my joints are thanking me. I haven't missed more than 4 days all year. I guess after 10 years straight a month break could be beneficial.

Blasphemy

 

[neoborn]

Balance in all things, I believe this is beneficial.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[Skigazzi]

I've spent some time over the last few years reading a lot of material about 'the aging male', and causes for lowered test. , and 2 major recurring themes are :

1 - Decreased T levels are caused by worm out Leydig cells, and that the body TRIES to fight this due to the fact that LH levels actually increase with age.
2 - SHBG levels rising is a major issue in causing males to perceive lowered levels of test. in their 30's and 40's.

Personally, Im about to turn 30 (days away :sad: ), been training for 15 years (5 years of track...400m mainly) followed by 10 years of weight lifting, and am feeling a bit older in terms of energy / libido than I think I should, Though strength and muscle gains are not suffering as of yet.

I guess 2 major questions came out of my quasi-research.

1 - Is there anyway to 'rest / refresh' leydig cells? this would obviously be the ideal option.
2 - How long can one remain on a SHBG inhibitor until either one stops responding to it, or levels of free test. begin to cause minor HPTA shutdown?

I've thought about the 'rest through shutdown' approach, but nothing I can find makes me feel this is surely safe and effective...it might be...but Im not looking to play with fire...plus I have no source...so its out....and I think that over time the use of SHBG inhibitors / AI's / T-Boosters will catch up to you and nothing will better the situation. I think through thoughtful use of 't-boosters' that we can probably fight the good fight for 5-10 more years...but...Eventually, right now it seems that all things point to TRT unfortunately being the only real fix.

 

[FrankJ]

Yes TRT is the final solution once other options are exhausted.

Or you can just get old, have no sex drive, a limp c0ck and love handles.

Im probably 5-10 years away from getting into the TRT.

 

[neoborn]

I have been reading about this as well Skigazzi. It's definately something that is on my mind. There has to be some way to refresh the life in these ole saggy ballz

I would think some kind of pulse or the test / minor shutdown method. There has to be a way!

Stimulation of TM3 Leydig cell proliferation via GABAA receptors: A new role for testicular GABA

The neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) and subtypes of GABA receptors were recently identified in adult testes. Since adult Leydig cells possess both the GABA biosynthetic enzyme glutamate decarboxylase (GAD), as well as GABAA and GABAB receptors, it is possible that GABA may act as auto-/paracrine molecule to regulate Leydig cell function. The present study was aimed to examine effects of GABA, which may include trophic action. This assumption is based on reports pinpointing GABA as regulator of proliferation and differentiation of developing neurons via GABAA receptors. Assuming such a role for the developing testis, we studied whether GABA synthesis and GABA receptors are already present in the postnatal testis, where fetal Leydig cells and, to a much greater extend, cells of the adult Leydig cell lineage proliferate. Immunohistochemistry, RT-PCR, Western blotting and a radioactive enzymatic GAD assay evidenced that fetal Leydig cells of five-six days old rats possess active GAD protein, and that both fetal Leydig cells and cells of the adult Leydig cell lineage possess GABAA receptor subunits. TM3 cells, a proliferating mouse Leydig cell line, which we showed to possess GABAA receptor subunits by RT-PCR, served to study effects of GABA on proliferation. Using a colorimetric proliferation assay and Western Blotting for proliferating cell nuclear antigen (PCNA) we demonstrated that GABA or the GABAA agonist isoguvacine significantly increased TM3 cell number and PCNA content in TM3 cells. These effects were blocked by the GABAA antagonist bicuculline, implying a role for GABAA receptors. In conclusion, GABA increases proliferation of TM3 Leydig cells via GABAA receptor activation and proliferating Leydig cells in the postnatal rodent testis bear a GABAergic system. Thus testicular GABA may play an as yet unrecognized role in the development of Leydig cells during the differentiation of the testicular interstitial compartment.

Do androgens increase Leydig cell sensitivity to luteinising hormone?

Leydig Cells, physiology

Amor Est Vitae Essentia,

Neoborn

 

[pudzian2]

very interesting. If this is so...then wouldnt the use of HCG on cycle only provoke desensitization in the long run. so maybe using HCG for the entire cycle is not recommended?

 

[FrankJ]

very interesting. If this is so...then wouldnt the use of HCG on cycle only provoke desensitization in the long run. so maybe using HCG for the entire cycle is not recommended?

Yes thats true.

It might be better to shut your balls down hard so those cells become more sensitive.

It also suggests longer cycles may not be that bad for recovering your balls.

 

[neoborn]

The present findings demonstrate that interference with the feedback effects of T, as a result of active immunization against this steroid, results in major changes in Leydig cell function in rats.These changes include a trebling in the number of LH receptors per Leydig cell and in the capacity of these cells to secrete T in vitro, while there was a smaller increase in the number of LHRH receptors per Leydig cell. Therefore, while confirming previous observations that suggested Leydig cell function was stimulated in T-immunized animals,in this study we have detailed precisely what changes have occurred.

The etiology of these changes is of considerable interest as it may provide important information on the basic mechanisms involved in the regulation of the Leydig cell. In the original studies in T-immunized rats and rabbits, it was considered that the observed changes in Leydig cell structure and function were simply a consequence of the chronically raised serum level of LH, which itself resulted from diminution of negative feedback to the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. We have also observed a massive increase in blood levels of LH in T-immunized rats, and the associated increase in testosterone responsiveness of the Leydig cells which we have demonstrated is consistent with
the known effects of LH or hCG treatment. On the other hand, the changes in receptor numbers in T-immunized rats are the exact opposite of what would be expected to result from raised LH levels. This may mean that factors other than LH are involved, such as interference with androgen feedback mechanisms within the testis. With these possibilities in mind, it is pertinent to recount the known actions of LH and to contrast these to the changes observed in T-immunized rats.

Continued treatment of rats with hCG leads to hypertrophy and hyperplasia of the Leydig cells (Schoen and Samuels, 1965; Chemes et al, 1976;Christensen and Peacock, 1980) and increased T responsiveness in vitro (Risbridger et al, 1982). Comparable changes in Leydig cell size and number have been reported in T-immunized rabbits (Nieschlag et al, 1973, 1975), and the increased testicular weight in T-immunized rats in the present study is perhaps also indicative of such a change. Certainly, the enormously increased basal output of T in vitro by Leydig cells from T-immunized rats is suggestive of increased expo-sure to LH in vivo, while the enhanced capacity to respond to maximal hCG stimulation in vitro is consistent with findings in other situations, such as bilaterally-induced cryptorchidism, in which Leydig cell hypertrophy and hyperplasia occur in the presence of raised serum levels of LH (deKretser et al, 1979; Schanbacher, 1980; Sharpe,1982a). These reports provide support for the idea that LH mediates the changes in Leydig cell func-
tion observed in T-immunized rats.

Something else I thought may be interesting but not neccessarily so.

Amor Est Vitae Essentia,

Neoborn

 

[pudzian2]

bump for my HCG question..... if planning on doing maybe 2 12 week or so cycles a year- so still intending to have a recovery period and not stay on indefinitely, would the use of HCG to mimic LH only provoke desensitization in the long run? I was under the assumption it would encourage recovery by minimizing some of the negative effects of HPTA shutdown (at least parts of it). but as far as long term natural test production, i suppose HCG would cause just as much desensitization as LH. this is why high dosages of HCG are known to do exactly that (desensitize leydig cells). then again we must consider that in the long run most people including steroid users can consider HRT becuase a decrease in natty test production is inevitable no matter which road you take.

 

[littlemack]

Just from the friends I have, who have been "ON" for years and years with no rest, they have all done permanent damage and are on TRT for life now. I've seen so many guys get started on steroids who start "safe" just as a lot of you guys talk about, but at some point become so mentally addicted to the drugs that they will not come off them. Its really sad and hurts to see your best friends go through things like this. Something that a lot of people are blind sided from... you know...they go with 12 weeks on cycle, 16 weeks off, then 12 on, 12 off, then 12 on 8 off, 12 on 4 off, etc... Smart guys too. Guys who've done all the research just like so many of you, but they fall victim to their own insecurities and narcissistic personalities. One day they wake up and they realize they haven't been off in 2 years or 5... Its a dangerous game my friends. I know people who went down in Raw Deal. Knew one or two that committed suicide when they got busted. Now I'm not anti-steroid, but don't just limit your thoughts to HPTA and hypogonadism, think about all the rammifications of long cycles and that lifestyle you will eventually find yourself in...
Stay safe brothers.

 

[pudzian2]

Just from the friends I have, who have been "ON" for years and years with no rest, they have all done permanent damage and are on TRT for life now. I've seen so many guys get started on steroids who start "safe" just as a lot of you guys talk about, but at some point become so mentally addicted to the drugs that they will not come off them. Its really sad and hurts to see your best friends go through things like this. Something that a lot of people are blind sided from... you know...they go with 12 weeks on cycle, 16 weeks off, then 12 on, 12 off, then 12 on 8 off, 12 on 4 off, etc... Smart guys too. Guys who've done all the research just like so many of you, but they fall victim to their own insecurities and narcissistic personalities. One day they wake up and they realize they haven't been off in 2 years or 5... Its a dangerous game my friends. I know people who went down in Raw Deal. Knew one or two that committed suicide when they got busted. Now I'm not anti-steroid, but don't just limit your thoughts to HPTA and hypogonadism, think about all the rammifications of long cycles and that lifestyle you will eventually find yourself in...
Stay safe brothers.

I see what you are saying man. But you fail to draw a distinct line between use and abuse. Even peopel who do not come "OFF" such as many professional bodybuilders see top doc's and monitor their health. They tend to stick to a plan I assume (those concerned with their health). Just becuase you are ON doesnt mean you will do damage. Running high doses for long long periods of time would potentially amount to more damage than staying "on" while incorporating blast and cruise techniques. I just think its very circumstantial. It's not the gear that does damage, its the irresponsible use. drinking wine everyday throughout the year isnt necessarily bad for you, but drinking too much can outweight the benefits we can get from it. such is life with any other substance.

 

[whitedevil74]

I see what you are saying man. But you fail to draw a distinct line between use and abuse. Even peopel who do not come "OFF" such as many professional bodybuilders see top doc's and monitor their health. They tend to stick to a plan I assume (those concerned with their health). Just becuase you are ON doesnt mean you will do damage. Running high doses for long long periods of time would potentially amount to more damage than staying "on" while incorporating blast and cruise techniques. I just think its very circumstantial. It's not the gear that does damage, its the irresponsible use. drinking wine everyday throughout the year isnt necessarily bad for you, but drinking too much can outweight the benefits we can get from it. such is life with any other substance.

Comparing drinking wine everyday with being on gear year round is not even a comparable argument and shows the profound leaps of logic and rationalization people will go to in order to justify their dangerous habits. I think steroids should be legal and I think they are safe when run under a doctors supervision, but no credible doctor would ever recommend that a person with normal hormonal levels run steroids continuously with no interruption in usage. That type of usage will only lead to permanent suppression of a persons normal hormonal levels and long term damage, do not even try to argue a contrary position as being healthy or safe. If a person wants to do so that is fine and it is their right, but do not try to convince other people that this is a safe practice.

 

[pudzian2]

Comparing drinking wine everyday with being on gear year round is not even a comparable argument and shows the profound leaps of logic and rationalization people will go to in order to justify their dangerous habits. I think steroids should be legal and I think they are safe when run under a doctors supervision, but no credible doctor would ever recommend that a person with normal hormonal levels run steroids continuously with no interruption in usage. That type of usage will only lead to permanent suppression of a persons normal hormonal levels and long term damage, do not even try to argue a contrary position as being healthy or safe. If a person wants to do so that is fine and it is their right, but do not try to convince other people that this is a safe practice.

please point me to the comparison becuase I do not believe I made one. I simply provided an aside so readers can step out of the "steroids are always bad for you" mentality encouraged by the media and society etc to look at the initial question from an unbiased, rational, and educated point of view. I also didn't suggest in any way that staying on gear is healthy or beneficial for everyone. I said it is circumstantial. I also said that health is the only common factor. Some people choose to worry about it more than others and THAT is in their right. I would like to you to tell me how any comment I made is convincing that the average healthy person who wants some of the "benefits" (such as increase in lean muscle mass) from steroids to stay on gear all year round and just think its "ok" becuase some people do it. This is a fvcking discussion forum where sometimes its okay to suggest a contrary position so that there can be quality discussion of pro's and con's. I was simply providing another perspective (not necessarily mine) on the situation.

I was trying to inform people reading littlemack's comments that not everyone who uses the same amount of gear as his friends will end up like them. THere is a degree of responsible use and a fine line between use and abuse. SOME people who find it best for them to stay ON year round (be it their career, secondary hypgonadism, TRT, etc) do blood work, work closely with a trusted doctor and monitor / protect their health.

open yourself up to constructive discussion and not condescending slander

 

[whitedevil74]

I was trying to inform people reading littlemack's comments that not everyone who uses the same amount of gear as his friends will end up like them. THere is a degree of responsible use and a fine line between use and abuse. SOME people who find it best for them to stay ON year round (be it their career, secondary hypgonadism, TRT, etc) do blood work, work closely with a trusted doctor and monitor / protect their health.

open yourself up to constructive discussion and not condescending slander

Other than TRT due to either permanent suppression because of past abuse, or declining/low levels due to age or other hormonal problem, there is no reason for anyone to stay on gear all year round. That is abuse plain and simple and is not up for debate. There is no pro position for staying on gear all year round, you do that you are abusing what can be a very beneficial substance when used responsibly. I am open for discussion but some postions are untenable. I agree if a person wants to it, they are well within in their rights to do so, but it still does not make it justifiable or healthy.

 

[pudzian2]

Other than TRT due to either permanent suppression because of past abuse, or declining/low levels due to age or other hormonal problem, there is no reason for anyone to stay on gear all year round. That is abuse plain and simple and is not up for debate. There is no pro position for staying on gear all year round, you do that you are abusing what can be a very beneficial substance when used responsibly. I am open for discussion but some postions are untenable. I agree if a person wants to it, they are well within in their rights to do so, but it still does not make it justifiable or healthy.

We can agree to disagree. I support the fact that just becuase someone finds themselves responsibly using exogenous hormones and not coming off does not mean they are abusing the substance. I did not say that staying ON meant using supra-physiological doses all year expecting to remain healthy. some bodybuilders or athletes stay on becuase there is no HPTA reason for them to cycle anymore. but they may use TRT doses when not "ON CYCLE". Either they have an already permanently suppressed endocrine system, or they are approaching the age where this starts to happen naturally. you cannot come out and say that staying on all year is abuse. abuse is not defined in such a way. it is a personal choice with many individual variables that will draw a line between use and abuse.

 

[whitedevil74]

We can agree to disagree. I support the fact that just becuase someone finds themselves responsibly using exogenous hormones and not coming off does not mean they are abusing the substance. I did not say that staying ON meant using supra-physiological doses all year expecting to remain healthy. some bodybuilders or athletes stay on becuase there is no HPTA reason for them to cycle anymore. but they may use TRT doses when not "ON CYCLE". Either they have an already permanently suppressed endocrine system, or they are approaching the age where this starts to happen naturally. you cannot come out and say that staying on all year is abuse. abuse is not defined in such a way. it is a personal choice with many individual variables that will draw a line between use and abuse.

DO you even read what I write, the examples that you list as acceptable reasons to use hormones year round are in my very first sentences as acceptable reasons to stay on year round. Looks like somebody is just trying to argue for no reason. Try reading before posting.

 

[pudzian2]

DO you even read what I write, the examples that you list as acceptable reasons to use hormones year round are in my very first sentences as acceptable reasons to stay on year round. Looks like somebody is just trying to argue for no reason. Try reading before posting.

excuse me? i did not start this argument. If I remember correctly you found it necessary to create biased opinionated statements based off of no concrete "right answer". Those examples in my parenthesis from a prior post were A FEW examples of people who may be ON for the long term without coming off. THAT DOES NOT MEAN SUCH A PRACTICE IS UNHEALTHY. IT IS CIRCUMSTANTIAL! end of story. what are you even trying to prove here? you saying that staying on gear all year is unhealthy no matter what variables or individual circumstances exist is not ALWAYS going to be the case.

 

[whitedevil74]

excuse me? i did not start this argument. If I remember correctly you found it necessary to create biased opinionated statements based off of no concrete "right answer". Those examples in my parenthesis from a prior post were A FEW examples of people who may be ON for the long term without coming off. THAT DOES NOT MEAN SUCH A PRACTICE IS UNHEALTHY. IT IS CIRCUMSTANTIAL! end of story. what are you even trying to prove here? you saying that staying on gear all year is unhealthy no matter what variables or individual circumstances exist is not ALWAYS going to be the case.

your reading comprehension skills definitely need some brushing up on. You only provided those examples after I criticized you about your cavalier attitude toward yearly cycles.

 

[whitedevil74]

I see what you are saying man. But you fail to draw a distinct line between use and abuse. Even peopel who do not come "OFF" such as many professional bodybuilders see top doc's and monitor their health. They tend to stick to a plan I assume (those concerned with their health). Just becuase you are ON doesnt mean you will do damage. Running high doses for long long periods of time would potentially amount to more damage than staying "on" while incorporating blast and cruise techniques. I just think its very circumstantial. It's not the gear that does damage, its the irresponsible use. drinking wine everyday throughout the year isnt necessarily bad for you, but drinking too much can outweight the benefits we can get from it. such is life with any other substance.

Again, here is your first post and besides professional bodybuilders who remain "on cycle" all year, this is the only example I see you provide. I see nothing about TRT due to permanently damaged HPTA (through prior abuse mind you so the damage has already been done), or TRT for age related reasons. Sorry I did not have the prescience to predict your argument for you, but you did not provide it here. Maybe if you articulate your position a little more competently next time you can avoid needless arguments.

 

[pudzian2]

Again, here is your first post and besides professional bodybuilders who remain "on cycle" all year, this is the only example I see you provide. I see nothing about TRT due to permanently damaged HPTA (through prior abuse mind you so the damage has already been done), or TRT for age related reasons. Sorry I did not have the prescience to predict your argument for you, but you did not provide it here. Maybe if you articulate your position a little more competently next time you can avoid needless arguments.

right. and even in the example I provided with this first post (pro bodybuilders using blast and cruise techniques to stay on for longer periods of time), this doesnt mean they are necessarily abusing steroids. if they can remain healthy there is no reason to call it abuse. usually when they "cruise" they use a TRT dose towards the higher end of the spectrum. You are entitled to your opinions and so am I. We obviously cannot come to an agreement so like I said let us agree to disagree and move on.

 

[neoborn]

Guys,

I hope you are enjoying the conversation / debate. If you can possibly enlighten people with your input and then take any other feelings etc to PM, that would be beneficial for clarity. Not to say don't post but if we could come to some sort "I state this" "you state this" "we agree to disagree" or come to a conclusion.

or B) just carry on and on and on and on :toofunny:

Amor Est Vitae Essentia,

Neoborn

 

[pudzian2]

Guys,

I hope you are enjoying the conversation / debate. If you can possibly enlighten people with your input and then take any other feelings etc to PM, that would be beneficial for clarity. Not to say don't post but if we could come to some sort "I state this" "you state this" "we agree to disagree" or come to a conclusion.

or B) just carry on and on and on and on :toofunny:

Amor Est Vitae Essentia,

Neoborn

"We obviously cannot come to an agreement so like I said let us agree to disagree and move on"

sorry to have clogged your thread with a little debate / misinterpretation. but like I stated...I think the debate is over.

 

[PhilABowl]

Macho Man Randy Savage has been "ON" for years and there's nothing wrong with him... err, wait...

 

[neoborn]

Good job guys. I must admit I do love my AM home here and hate to see potential friends and helpers battle it out without an end to the matter.

Amor Est Vitae Essentia,

Neoborn

 

[comacho]

well its not proven or you dont hear alot of but...

nuts shrinking and increasing, up and down up and down,,,can't be good as those organs normally dont atrophy and proliferate like that. Not really designed to do so frequently and so much as of nature. More of your cells do that dying/proliferate cycles more chances of something going wrong during replication and bam, nut cancer. That's how skin cancer happens from too much UV damage and regrowth.

now, thats something "I" worry about whenever i end up shrinking my balls.

again there are no studies or you dont hear things on the news about nut cancer and juice users. Many experienced users dont have those problem, but I thought it was something you should think about next time you want to 'shut down your balls hard' just to make it more LH sensitive IMO.

It's scary sometimes when my nuts ache just before they start to shut down. :nutkick: