Best stack during PCT?
- 12-04-2007, 08:23 AM
Best stack during PCT?
Nearing last two weeks of Epi pulse cycle, and wondering if anyone has ideas with backup for a good stack during PCT.
I will be using POst Cycle Support, 6-Oxo, and some trib at the end of PCT, and either Lean Xtreme, or Retain2 if I go AX.
My planned stack was the AX HyperdrolX2 and Massfx.
Any better ideas and why for a stack?
I want to keep the gains that I have made and build on them.
- 12-07-2007, 03:38 PM
- 12-07-2007, 03:44 PM
12-07-2007, 07:06 PM
Advising a SERM in this case is just total over kill and will bring about more issues than the actual cycle.
12-07-2007, 07:08 PM
12-07-2007, 07:13 PM
I disagree as well, even if you do a ph you should still look at doing a good serm. Regardless if there straight up roids or not, protect your body and don't take any chances:bruce3:
12-07-2007, 07:14 PM
12-07-2007, 07:25 PM
I went all out for my first post cycle therapy.
Diesel Test Hardcore
PCS by AI
I loved it although i wqas involved witht the MDrol situation, it is also what Im runnin for my Hdrol, but the Torem alot less.
Also, Anytime you use a produc/Anabolic/PH that is replacing your natural test production and replacing it then you are gettin shutdown. IT doesn matter if it shows or not. Now if you "cant tell" then you may just take 4 week+ to fully recover after a cycle. I believe eventually, you will fully recover. People run PCT to get their body back on tracka bit quicker. Epistane is hype alot to have SERM like effects. Well it also was found to have Tren(or its prescuoror somehting) in it. So, why not just be safe and run a "protocal" PCT?
On the other hand, i htink that sometimes yes people are very very hung up on SERMs in PCT but i do it casue once the breat tissue begins or your body sufferes longer it only makes thing worse.
12-07-2007, 09:46 PM
I think a good compromise would be to run everything you've planned so far except for the 6oxo and a low dose of a serm. Im doing a 2 week blitz of superdrol and Ill be using some resveratrol, drive, HGW, and some other test boosting what nots but will run a conservative dose of nolva just to be safe for 3-4 weeks.
12-08-2007, 05:28 AM
I don't recommend 6-oxo for a post cycle therapy, Infact with the options the OP gave i said to drop the 6-oxo. I would think that PCS or Derma Sust combined with I3C should do the trick.
I am on the tail end of a stand alone epistane pulsing cycle.
Have you experienced a stand alone pulsing cycle of epistane?
A SERM for a stand alone pulsing cycle of epistane, to me is over kill. Its my opinion . When i get my blood test back i'll be able to see for real :P. If you would like i will post the results on ********. I will be getting bloods directly after my pulse cycle and will be using a trans-res product for PCT not sure which one yet or for how long- how long depends on my bloodwork i suppose). I have Derma Sust and PCS here.
Pulsing is designed to alleviate the sides associated with Pro hormones. If it was a pulsing stack of 2 methyls one being something like M1t or superdrol then i would consider a SERM being needed.
Lets see how my blood work looks .
I have a harsher cycle planned out and will be running it in a few months time. This time i will be attempting an OTC PCT again (assuming my blood work from the pulsing turns ok). I have some torem here as a back up, i jumped the gun a bit getting that. Its not the best choice i have leaned since. It'll all be in my log.
I said don't hate me jomi :P.
12-08-2007, 02:05 PM
12-08-2007, 05:04 PM
I know you guys are trying to watch out for these young kids and really pushing SERMS to everyone...but I've never had trouble recovering from a Prohormone or AAS cycle without a SERM. Peroid. 4-6 weeks off an 8 or 12 week cycle and I've always recovered just fine. Keeping it on hand for the risk of gyno I would advise...I've always been fortunate in that department. There are also a LOT of veterans who think you should recover naturally. Some of these SERMS are harder on your body than the Gear itself. Your going to crash regardless...the SERMS only help soften the fall...
Now I know you guys are going to jump down my throat for saying all of that stuff... lol... its just my opinion from my own experience and from talking to guys who've been at this 15-30years. I've got friends who haven't come off gear for 10+ years. Most of these guys bridge into HRT at some point and are on test for life...lol
And you guys who are using Methyl's for 4-8 weeks please don't use tamoxifen (Nolvadex) which is also harsh on the liver and a carcinogen. Oddly, I've seen a few people on this board include that in their PCT.
12-08-2007, 06:03 PM
12-08-2007, 06:09 PM
12-09-2007, 04:27 AM
12-09-2007, 04:33 AM
Also, (and I'm definitely no expert on this either, but) isn't Trans-Resveratrol supposed to work similarly to a SERM? For an Epi pulse, PCS may be sufficient, as far as SERMs are needed. That's really why they made it.
12-09-2007, 03:16 PM
Yes, the guys that used it also didn't have lab work I assure you (the anecdotal "evidence").
One thing you must understand when SERMs were compared with placebo, the propensity for them to work better than the essential watchful waiting protocol employed by most doctors was slim if at all relevant.
This is not to assume I wouldn't suggest use in certain circumstances. Still, there wasn't one person who actually inquired with the OP how long the intentioned cycle would be (nearing the last two weeks of how long).
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-09-2007, 04:17 PM
12-09-2007, 04:41 PM
what exactly would you recommend for the people that are on 4-8 week cycles of pro hormones if not tamoxifen...which is a carcinogen if used for years and years and years....
12-09-2007, 04:46 PM
12-09-2007, 09:27 PM
Now what is the reason you ask about 6-oxo? I don't Use 6-oxo, i wasn't advising the use of 6-oxo, i don't care about 6-oxo and its binding affinity to the AR. Because i don't use it.
I advised 6-bromo over 6-oxo. I will admit i am not an expert at this , but i am how ever researching OTC post cycle therapy. I was just letting the OP know what i would do with the options he gives.
PCS is designed for this express purpose.
The Doc is correct in no one here ask how long the cycle was, if it was 12 weeks then a SERM would be a better option (but you never asked how long the cycle was and jumped in with SERM). If the cycle was 4 weeks, 3 x week at 30-40mg then a SERM is in my opinion overkill (but i never asked how long the cycle was either).
If you don't advocate Pulsing and have no experience with it then how can your advice be any better than mine? I am on the tail end of a pulse, sure you cannot tell if there is shutdown without blood tests, but i can tell you there is no change in my libido, testicle size or anything balls and sex at all. The blood tests will tell the story, one before post cycle and one after.
Its obvious we will never come to an agreement over this so lets agree to disagree for now. If i fail then i will humbly apologize and accept my faults, will do the same if i succeed?
In the mean time i will try to comment less on things i have little experience in. Although i am running a pulsing cycle of epistane like the OP, i have not run a post cycle OTC yet. All i have to go buy are the blood tests i came across in the giant pulsing thread They were clean and nice with no post cycle what so ever, and from high reputation people :0. (and of course my experience so far).
Edit: In Australia, we have a Medicare system that gives free medical to everyone :0. So my blood test are... free. i go down get a piece of paper take it to the clinic when im ready and get the tests done. So i'll be getting bloods all the time
12-10-2007, 05:42 AM
zpnq, why dont you post blood tests on this forum? We need more blood tests results. It would be interesting to follow. If you are getting free blood tests, why not do one each week and document findings for further research?
12-10-2007, 06:18 AM
The funding will cover me for blood tests before and after cycles, without a worry. The Funding comes from tax we pay.
I am not %100 sure thats how it works so dont quote me on it :P. I have never been to the doctor enough to deplete the funding from my tax.
I'll post the results here as well, but for my up coming cycle i will only log it at lean, maybe post the bloods here as well.
12-10-2007, 06:27 AM
12-11-2007, 01:32 AM
Care to answer me?
12-11-2007, 02:27 PM
12-11-2007, 05:17 PM
12-11-2007, 08:12 PM
12-13-2007, 09:03 AM
As for the "goal" of 6-oxo, it is not to make you bigger, but to increase your natural production of testosterone, which it appears to do. However, one study I read did mention the possibility that it is causing a false positive reading for increased testosterone because the molecule of androstenetrione is so similar to testosterone.
Also, I second the others: post your bloodwork after your cycle. Even if it shows low test and shutdown, I won't hold it against you.... I think it would be good for all other to know.
12-13-2007, 02:08 PM
12-13-2007, 05:14 PM
i fail to see the how much worse taking some Tor for a few weeks would really be than all this 6oxo stuff and epi ??
tor works, i dont know about all that other stuff, but if you want to guarantee you'll be back to normal quickly, then use tor. i have noticed no side effects from it.
12-13-2007, 05:19 PM
Technically the goal of 6-oxo is to inhibit Aromatase, there by decreasing estrogen. The resulting rise in test is a side effect of Inhibiting Aromatase. I didn't mean to sound like 6-oxo was meant to make you big :P. Suppression is not something you want from an AI though. <-- should have said that.
When i asked Patrick A. if 6-oxo binds to the AR this is what he said. We know where is loyalties lay so this may not mean allot.
Of course it will show low test and shutdown :P, I just took a mild steroid, but that said, i will be attempting an OTC PCT. Its the blood tests after the PCT(i will running for 8 weeks) that will tell the story.
12-14-2007, 07:07 AM
wow...a lot of reading and sifting to do here.
Thanks for all the responses. I am 1 1/2 weeks from ending a 6 week cycle. The past 3.5 weeks have been at 40mg 3 times per week. PERCEIVED shutdown is minimal to none, no size difference in the boys and libido is pretty normal.
I only lean away from SERM as it does bother me that is it stronger and also toxic, and wanted to bring my test back on its own. However, to be on the safe side I may get some nolva or torem for a mild two week jumpstart.
Back to the stack, still. I am looking to keep my gains, I have gained about 15 pounds, a lot from eating very well, some from epi, I believe. My arms have grown by 1/2 inch, thighs by 1 inch, and waist stayed about the same... maybe 1/4 inch increase, chest 1/2 inch.
In my cabinet is....NHA stack, Massfx, a little HDX2, post cycle support(resveratin), advanced post cycle therapy, 6 oxo,
creatine cee, citruline malate, arginine malate, beta alanine, sesamin, and whey, fish oil, cla, multis,
My plan was the AX stack, but the price and many people swear by the NHA stack, so went that route instead.
Thanks, guys for all the input.
I am not a kid.. I am 40, and want to take care of myself properly while still optimizing my growth.
Pulse has been ok, if I were to do it again, I would do ED as the off days seem to have some hormonal balance issues.
The comments about 6 oxo surprise me, but are appreciated. I was told by many that it was very good for post cycle therapy.
I have done months of reading and research before starting and planning my cycle. Maybe too much as I still cannot seem to set myself due to so many differing opinions.
12-14-2007, 09:37 AM
Here is a study published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition:
Here is the money quote:
"FT and DHT underwent overall increases of 90% and 192% for 300 mg 6-OXO and 84% and 265% for 600 mg, respectively, while T/E increased 53% and 67% for 300 mg and 600 mg 6-OXO, respectively."
So, doesn't that pretty conclusively show that 6-OXO is NOT suppressive?
12-14-2007, 01:47 PM
so per that article, 6 OXO is not a good anti aromatase, and this is what I was going to have it in my pct for. So it may as well wait for some other use some other time.
12-14-2007, 01:52 PM
i was answering you here
In the start of the thread i advised against 6-oxo
I also never said 6-oxo was suppressive. It was jomi that implied it by asking what the relevance of 6-oxo binding to the AR is. In my answer i said i didn't know it did. your getting confused:P. Take a step back and read through again.
12-14-2007, 02:27 PM
ftchef, 15 lbs is impressive for a pulse! Congrats. I hear you on the contradicting opinions...here is mine that I formed all by myself
A. people who hold overall health in higher regard - don't do PH/PS/gear
B. people who take "calculated" health risks - would like to avoid SERMs since they're also a drug
C. people who don't want moobs (read man boobies)/are gyno-phobic...that would be me - figure a SERM "can't hurt" and play safe
myself... I'm on the B/C fence :-)
Last edited by NasD; 12-14-2007 at 02:29 PM. Reason: typo
12-14-2007, 03:54 PM
thanks, NasD, the 15lbs, I am sure is from a combination of increased cals and not just epi. But, I am thrilled, I just hope to hold on to most of it. I am right there with you on the moobs!, and I think I will get some torem to be on the safe side.
All in all, I will have to be off the epi for awhile to really get a better idea of how well it did work. Strength HAS been great,squats are way up as well as bench, etc. I was hoping for a bit more mass. But then again, i still feel like I'm a small guy at 200lbs, and want to be huuuge!
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