Which OTC Designer is the PH to Tren

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Botch any ideas of something to stack the Methoxy-TRN with to make sure libido stays high? I am not sure if it will raise or lower my libido but I would like to have something on hand to throw in the mix if need be to keep the libido and wood at full strength?

    Mr.50
    Have you, or anyone else seriously looked into the AMS 4AD product?

    I know everyone is about to scream DHEA, but its not. This is the 4-isomer (DHEA is the 5 isomer) and it should have significantly higher conversion to test.

    It should convert to 4-diol via 17bHSD and then interconvert between 4AD and testosterone. On paper, this should be a very good replacement for the traditional 4AD product.

    Now, has anyone actually tried it?


  2. Start reading around the top of page 2: 4-AD by AMS...any good?

    I believe this is the thread where the guy got blood tests done.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by stxnas View Post
    Start reading around the top of page 2: 4-AD by AMS...any good?

    I believe this is the thread where the guy got blood tests done.
    Thanks for the link. Those blood tests are impressive and would support the above theory.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Didn't bother going through and reading the other posts, but I know the answer to your question:

    THERE AREN'T ANY!!!!
    Yeah, I believe Slow Mun cleared that up and then we got off on a slight tangent...way to bring us back to topic though, lol!
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49

  5. Quote Originally Posted by stxnas View Post
    Start reading around the top of page 2: 4-AD by AMS...any good?

    I believe this is the thread where the guy got blood tests done.


    So it looks like Morph got some changes in blood levels but not sure if that would translate to increases in libido when other compounds might be supressing libido (tren derivatives). Also there is some concern that ATD causes false positive increases in testosterone measurment because the ATD itself is mistaken for testosterone upon analysis.

    Mr.50

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    So it looks like Morph got some changes in blood levels but not sure if that would translate to increases in libido when other compounds might be supressing libido (tren derivatives). Also there is some concern that ATD causes false positive increases in testosterone measurment because the ATD itself is mistaken for testosterone upon analysis.

    Mr.50
    This is true, but honestly there is no reason to believe that it isn't the 4AD causing the increased test levels. 4-androsterone --> 4-diol --> test should be a fairly straightforward conversion in vivo.

    Also, both 4-diol and testosterone have been proven to improve libido. I'm not sure what kind of androgenic activity the 4-andorsterone has (if any) but its major metabolites should help with the libido issue.

    Honestly, I think that this is your best bet for libido enhancement as most of the current crop of designers really seem to kill sex drive for many.

    If you want to go the non-androgen route though, you might want to give aspire a shot. It definitely works, but in my case caused some pretty nasty sides. Also, it really will only help with possible ED problems...probably won't give you a significant increase in libido.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by quigs View Post
    This is true, but honestly there is no reason to believe that it isn't the 4AD causing the increased test levels. 4-androsterone --> 4-diol --> test should be a fairly straightforward conversion in vivo.

    Also, both 4-diol and testosterone have been proven to improve libido. I'm not sure what kind of androgenic activity the 4-andorsterone has (if any) but its major metabolites should help with the libido issue.

    Honestly, I think that this is your best bet for libido enhancement as most of the current crop of designers really seem to kill sex drive for many.

    If you want to go the non-androgen route though, you might want to give aspire a shot. It definitely works, but in my case caused some pretty nasty sides. Also, it really will only help with possible ED problems...probably won't give you a significant increase in libido.
    I got the same from Aspire but Palo was nice enough to send me some samples of the Aspire Lite I am going to try

    I agree the 4AD may be worth a shot but I would be way more convinced if it converted to 4-ADIOL but remember it actually converts to 4-ADIONE this is a huge difference in my opinion because the conversion from the dione to test is not very efficient at all. If it was the DIOL on the other hand that would be a different story.

    Mr.50

  8. Mr. 50,
    you might want to try out Dermacrine. It helped me keep my libido up on an Epistane cycle. Since there has been all this commotion about Trenadrol and Methoxy-TRN being completely different compounds I don't know how ALRI's version will effect your libido, but FWIW Trenadrol was like Viagra for me.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    Mr. 50,
    you might want to try out Dermacrine. It helped me keep my libido up on an Epistane cycle. Since there has been all this commotion about Trenadrol and Methoxy-TRN being completely different compounds I don't know how ALRI's version will effect your libido, but FWIW Trenadrol was like Viagra for me.
    Mega-TRN will make libido go nuts at their recommended dose. If you go above, it starts to die.

    Which supports my theory that tren-**** is caused by the sexual organs being over-stimulated, and burn out (which parallels one of the theories as to how DHT, a steroid that promotes hair growth, causes hairloss).
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    I got the same from Aspire but Palo was nice enough to send me some samples of the Aspire Lite I am going to try

    I agree the 4AD may be worth a shot but I would be way more convinced if it converted to 4-ADIOL but remember it actually converts to 4-ADIONE this is a huge difference in my opinion because the conversion from the dione to test is not very efficient at all. If it was the DIOL on the other hand that would be a different story.

    Mr.50
    This should convert to diol, not dione. just to be clear.

  11. Quigs, I believe you but in the other thread all of th eposters claimed it would convert to 4-dione rather then 4-diol. What would be the best way of clearing up this discrepancy and determinging which it will become?

    Mr.50

  12. if I recall correctly from what I've read in the past the Dione version will convert to Diol albeit at a much lower rate and there will also be much more aromatization into estrogen.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Quigs, I believe you but in the other thread all of th eposters claimed it would convert to 4-dione rather then 4-diol. What would be the best way of clearing up this discrepancy and determinging which it will become?

    Mr.50
    Well the enzyme that would convert this should be 17bHSD. Not really too sure how I could convince you. I did some searching over the last couple hours on this compound and haven't found much. I checked the reviews on BN.com, and there are a few for 4AD but nothing substantial. There are however almost all 5-star reviews for the 1AD product, which should have the same route of conversion as the 4AD.

    In addition, I found where PA commented on this product in a thread on bb.com a couple weeks ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    DHEA is 5-Androstene-3b-ol-17-one

    the stuff you are talking about is the 4 isomer. much better conversion to test than dhea (which would be the 5 isomer)
    I know its not much, but I'd have to assume that he's thinking along the same lines.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by quigs View Post
    Well the enzyme that would convert this should be 17bHSD. Not really too sure how I could convince you. I did some searching over the last couple hours on this compound and haven't found much. I checked the reviews on BN.com, and there are a few for 4AD but nothing substantial. There are however almost all 5-star reviews for the 1AD product, which should have the same route of conversion as the 4AD.

    In addition, I found where PA commented on this product in a thread on bb.com a couple weeks ago:



    I know its not much, but I'd have to assume that he's thinking along the same lines.
    Generally I think you are correct. I have to bust out the old O-Chem stuff for a review soon. But I am just wondering if PA's comment was ment to be interpreted as the 4-DHEA was much more likely to be converted to Test then 5-DHEA but this does not address if the conversion would be through the
    4-androdiol step or the 4-androdione step, it only seems to address that the functional group is on the right carbon but not what functional group it is....


    Mr.50

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Generally I think you are correct. I have to bust out the old O-Chem stuff for a review soon. But I am just wondering if PA's comment was ment to be interpreted as the 4-DHEA was much more likely to be converted to Test then 5-DHEA but this does not address if the conversion would be through the
    4-androdiol step or the 4-androdione step, it only seems to address that the functional group is on the right carbon but not what functional group it is....
    Mr.50
    Okay, here. This may illustrate my point a bit better...I know its not the best diagram, but its all I could find quick.

    Focus more on the left side. Now for purposes, we are going to pretend that DHEA is actually 4-DHEA (4-androsterone). Now if you look, DHEA converts to androstenediol via 17-beta HSD. 4-DHEA will convert the same way, except to 4-diol. Now, the main thing to remember here is that 17-beta HSD is the main enzyme we're going to face in the GI tract....its the same thing that seems to convert oral testosterone into androstendione interfering with testosterone's oral bioavailability. We are not going to see much, if any, 3-beta HSD enzyme in the GI...which would cause conversion to 4-DIONE. This product will be taken orally, so that's what we want.

    Now, where we're going to see a lot of 3-beta HSD is in liver and muscle tissue. So what the progression should be is:

    4-androsterone--->4-diol (via 17-beta HSD in the gut) then...
    4-diol---->testosterone (via 3-beta HSD in the liver/muscle tissue)


    Here's a paper for a bit more support:
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBMED
    Testosterone metabolism by the rat gastrointestinal tract, in vitro and in vivo.

    We have shown previously that the capacity of the jejunal (small intestine) mucosa to oxidise testosterone to the weaker androgen, androstenedione, by the enzyme 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17 beta-HSD), is considerable. The present study extends these earlier observations by measuring 17 beta-HSD activity in different regions of the gastrointestinal tract, by investigating the potential for testosterone metabolism by slices and everted sacs of rat jejunum, and estimating the contribution of intestinal testosterone metabolites to circulating levels of plasma androgens, by portal vein sampling in the rat, in vivo. 17 beta-HSD activity in homogenates of gastric and duodenal mucosa was significantly higher than that in jejunum, and was also present in ileum and colon. In addition to androstenedione, slices and everted sacs of rat jejunum produced various metabolites, one of which was probably dihydrotestosterone. It was not, however, a major metabolite in vivo. It is suggested that 5 alpha-reduction may be favoured in vitro by a lower oxidation-reduction potential resulting from tissue anoxia. The major portal vein metabolite was androstenedione, the same major metabolite produced by mucosal homogenates. We conclude that oxidation of testosterone is the major metabolic pathway in intestinal mucosa and the capacity of the gastrointestinal tract to reduce the potency of testosterone is considerable. Our findings suggest that the gut, rather than the liver, is responsible for the failure of oral testosterone to provide effective androgen replacement therapy. The qualitative difference in testosterone metabolism between in vitro and in vivo preparations emphasises the need for caution in the interpretation of similar in vitro experiments.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  16. Quigs, thanks for the informative and helpfuly post. It is much clearer now


    Mr.50

  17. If u want a tren product just buy IBE's Epistane. Neoborn can explain it in detail for u. Isn't that right Neo!!

  18. I don't know if this means anything but I'm on day 6 of a 30mg epi and 50mg of halo. I've done 2 preivous cycles of halo and libido on it was through the roof. My libido before this was awesome. Only day 6 and its as if my libido is shot to sh1t. Kinda weird I don't know what to think of this mistery compound.

  19. Dont forget about G.E.T's new product(makers of Sus500) Tren 250 they have it for sale at my local supp store yet I havent found it on line

  20. Mr.50---- I have a suggestion for the libido issues. Get you some horny goat weed powder (40% icariin) at CNW for $9.99 per 50 grams. Take a gram a day divided into 2 doses. This will greatly help the libido!!!

  21. Quote Originally Posted by thundergod View Post
    Mr.50---- I have a suggestion for the libido issues. Get you some horny goat weed powder (40% icariin) at CNW for $9.99 per 50 grams. Take a gram a day divided into 2 doses. This will greatly help the libido!!!


    Thanks for the heads up bro, I will look into it.

    Mr.50
  

  
 

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