Which OTC Designer is the PH to Tren

Page 2 of 3 First 123 Last

  1. Quote Originally Posted by stxnas View Post
    I just noticed this part of your post. It's possible that the current nomenclature is being used due to its ambiguity. It could be speculated that the "reformulated" Trenadrol is simply Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione. The original TRN/Trenadrol were both non-methyl progestins and I believe both are very "dry" compounds. Again, I'm merely speculating, but it seems like a very viable "theory" that one could be substituted for the other...of course the dose would have to be upped from 3mg to say...hmm, about 30mg...hell, if you want to play that game though it could be anything.

    Honestly, we'll never know unless Kilo tells us what the real situation was/is.
    Its scary! I have a few bottles of the orginal Methoxy-TRN and I was thinking of running it as part of a mid-winter begin to cut cycle (I need a long time to cut) but then I was reading that Trenaplex was much better. Now I can't decide what, if any, of these I should use???

    Mr.50


  2. Mr. 50, I think you will enjoy the Methoxy-TRN. I say stick with that for a cut cycle. I've heard good things about it and if it is anything like Trenadrol you will be very pleased with it on a cut.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    So your saying that even though Methoxy TRN and Trenadrol both say 17b-methoxy-trienbolone on the lable they actually both have different compounds (this wouldn't be unheard of but I am just trying to clarify)?

    Mr.50
    Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. While they both have the same ambiguous compound listed, they are in reality completely different compounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    i tested the trenadrol and it did not match up to methoxy trenbolone. it had a MW of 270 which is the same as straight trenbolone but the rest of the MS did not match up. It possibly could be estra-4,9-3,17-dione but i cannot know without having a sample of that to match it up to

    i discovered something else (which i cannot believe i missed months back) during this test which made my jaw drop but i am not gonna say what it is. it did not involve the trenadrol. i know this sounds confusing, sorry
    The second part above is referencing his finding what appears to be trenbolone in epistane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    i have tested everything that i have received in the mail so far which was just one bottle of trenadrol. It had a MW of 270. I am guessing a possibility is that it is estra-4,9-dien-3,17-dione but i have no sample of that to cross reference against

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    Mr. 50, I think you will enjoy the Methoxy-TRN. I say stick with that for a cut cycle. I've heard good things about it and if it is anything like Trenadrol you will be very pleased with it on a cut.

    Botch any ideas of something to stack the Methoxy-TRN with to make sure libido stays high? I am not sure if it will raise or lower my libido but I would like to have something on hand to throw in the mix if need be to keep the libido and wood at full strength?

    Mr.50

  5. Quigs...What PA found is actually along the lines of what ALRI said, it's not truly Methoxy-Tren. ALRI stated on this board that if you bring it to the market, you get to name it...or something along those lines. I'll dig up the post.

    TST and TRN Metabolites

    Quote Originally Posted by bigSMokey
    Yes, this is the correct structure for TRN. As for TST, it is probably methoxytestosterone. We have not been told this for sure, however. The bottle gives a chemically meaningless (well, at least very ambiguous) 'trienosterone' designation.

    As for legal reasons preventing the release of TST's formula, I cannot see why. This is because TRN is widely known, and admitted to be, methoxytrenbolone. So why should the methoxy derivative of testosterone be any scarrier (leagally, this is)? Testosterone and trenbolone are both equally illegal, am I right?

    And I can 110% guarantee that the gov't. knows whats in TST (hell, Catlin probably has the f***** structure on the wall of his lab in poster form ) so again where are the legal fears coming from?

    People at least have the right to know that this stuff is NOT a triene (tren isomer), as the bottle's nomenclature implies. Such a coumpound would be much riskier, as to unknown long-term effects, than methoxytestosterone.


    And who needs another progestin when the whole point of you working out is this
    Quote Originally Posted by Author L. Rea
    Good points Lad. I hope that you will be patient with me while I discuss some points of view for everyone to consider here and I will try to give you the answers you need at the end. (Yes, I am going to babble...sorry)

    Interesting points of view I can agree with in part, and I am certain that most will not like the answers any more than when we opted to not market these items back in 2005...and still don't.

    MTRN and MTST were designed by ALRI and are not listed in any prior research that I am aware of, or for that matter Vida. We worked with them for several years feeling rather proud to be able to present to OTC supplement users, what we felt at the time, were far superior products with safety profiles not matched by any other like-compounds of the time.

    Problem was that anything of the PH nature became a serious media mania and political issue that has seriously harmed the entire supplement industry in the US and Europe. Just because no one here would agree with it does not make it go away.

    Odd, seems that if the issue were that such items will harm our children that age limits that allow cigarettes and alcohol to assumed used responsibly would somehow not do so for a supplement.

    Worse is that the media up-roar was based upon pro-athletes (whom are banned from using the products) were the basis for political intervention. Hmmm, assuming this ideal is correct, all males should be concerned about mandated castration due to the desire to prevent teen premarital sex.

    Point is that the issue has nothing to do with those who are simply seeking better potential for results and are NOT among the few pro-athletes.

    We never released MTST but did have a some units of MTRN make their way to the US market which we recalled for the above reasons. Sucks, but true.

    The terms used to define structure are no less ambiguous than the generic terms androstenedione or Cissus.

    There are two sides to the issue giving the type of structural info being discussed and it was the final reason ALRI removed itself from that part of the industry last year.

    1) Giving the type of nomenclature that is being discussed would allow the knock offs to begin. I am sure most do not work for free or buy a house and let someone else sell it and keep the money after paying all the bills and do all the work to get it. But if so, please LMK as I would like to get all of the free houses others willingness to work for free allows.

    As an example, there is a newer attempt at knocking off the old MTRN product by KS that is no where near correct. Hard to knock off what you do not know how to create yourself. Qualified people like Patrick Arnold and Dr. D "could" easily do so, but would not due to the mutual passion for innovation such minds share. As to Catlin, no doubt he does have the structures, there was no effort to protect anything from detection. Nothing illegal to consider.
    2) if you create it, you get to name it. But not sure it really matters any more, at least to ALRI, as we are out of that area of the market totally to avoid all of the negative such issues brings. We are busy developing products that work and do not include the need to deal with Balco type issues. Innovation has not died, but the knock offs will need to go elsewhere.

    Of course there will be one idiot who will jump into this forum sooner or later and either post "something shady" or argue something they know nothing about as usual, but for the really great people here at AM I hope this was of some help:

    There is a valid point that should be answered here, no, TST had no progestin structural relationships. It also has no testosterone metabolites and is totally detectable.

    TRN was not methoxy trenbolone. Real TRN made most horny, methoxy trenbolone would be a liver killer and libido death.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Botch any ideas of something to stack the Methoxy-TRN with to make sure libido stays high? I am not sure if it will raise or lower my libido but I would like to have something on hand to throw in the mix if need be to keep the libido and wood at full strength?

    Mr.50
    Have you, or anyone else seriously looked into the AMS 4AD product?

    I know everyone is about to scream DHEA, but its not. This is the 4-isomer (DHEA is the 5 isomer) and it should have significantly higher conversion to test.

    It should convert to 4-diol via 17bHSD and then interconvert between 4AD and testosterone. On paper, this should be a very good replacement for the traditional 4AD product.

    Now, has anyone actually tried it?

  7. Start reading around the top of page 2: 4-AD by AMS...any good?

    I believe this is the thread where the guy got blood tests done.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49

  8. Quote Originally Posted by stxnas View Post
    Start reading around the top of page 2: 4-AD by AMS...any good?

    I believe this is the thread where the guy got blood tests done.
    Thanks for the link. Those blood tests are impressive and would support the above theory.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Didn't bother going through and reading the other posts, but I know the answer to your question:

    THERE AREN'T ANY!!!!
    Yeah, I believe Slow Mun cleared that up and then we got off on a slight tangent...way to bring us back to topic though, lol!
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49

  10. Quote Originally Posted by stxnas View Post
    Start reading around the top of page 2: 4-AD by AMS...any good?

    I believe this is the thread where the guy got blood tests done.


    So it looks like Morph got some changes in blood levels but not sure if that would translate to increases in libido when other compounds might be supressing libido (tren derivatives). Also there is some concern that ATD causes false positive increases in testosterone measurment because the ATD itself is mistaken for testosterone upon analysis.

    Mr.50

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    So it looks like Morph got some changes in blood levels but not sure if that would translate to increases in libido when other compounds might be supressing libido (tren derivatives). Also there is some concern that ATD causes false positive increases in testosterone measurment because the ATD itself is mistaken for testosterone upon analysis.

    Mr.50
    This is true, but honestly there is no reason to believe that it isn't the 4AD causing the increased test levels. 4-androsterone --> 4-diol --> test should be a fairly straightforward conversion in vivo.

    Also, both 4-diol and testosterone have been proven to improve libido. I'm not sure what kind of androgenic activity the 4-andorsterone has (if any) but its major metabolites should help with the libido issue.

    Honestly, I think that this is your best bet for libido enhancement as most of the current crop of designers really seem to kill sex drive for many.

    If you want to go the non-androgen route though, you might want to give aspire a shot. It definitely works, but in my case caused some pretty nasty sides. Also, it really will only help with possible ED problems...probably won't give you a significant increase in libido.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by quigs View Post
    This is true, but honestly there is no reason to believe that it isn't the 4AD causing the increased test levels. 4-androsterone --> 4-diol --> test should be a fairly straightforward conversion in vivo.

    Also, both 4-diol and testosterone have been proven to improve libido. I'm not sure what kind of androgenic activity the 4-andorsterone has (if any) but its major metabolites should help with the libido issue.

    Honestly, I think that this is your best bet for libido enhancement as most of the current crop of designers really seem to kill sex drive for many.

    If you want to go the non-androgen route though, you might want to give aspire a shot. It definitely works, but in my case caused some pretty nasty sides. Also, it really will only help with possible ED problems...probably won't give you a significant increase in libido.
    I got the same from Aspire but Palo was nice enough to send me some samples of the Aspire Lite I am going to try

    I agree the 4AD may be worth a shot but I would be way more convinced if it converted to 4-ADIOL but remember it actually converts to 4-ADIONE this is a huge difference in my opinion because the conversion from the dione to test is not very efficient at all. If it was the DIOL on the other hand that would be a different story.

    Mr.50

  13. Mr. 50,
    you might want to try out Dermacrine. It helped me keep my libido up on an Epistane cycle. Since there has been all this commotion about Trenadrol and Methoxy-TRN being completely different compounds I don't know how ALRI's version will effect your libido, but FWIW Trenadrol was like Viagra for me.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    Mr. 50,
    you might want to try out Dermacrine. It helped me keep my libido up on an Epistane cycle. Since there has been all this commotion about Trenadrol and Methoxy-TRN being completely different compounds I don't know how ALRI's version will effect your libido, but FWIW Trenadrol was like Viagra for me.
    Mega-TRN will make libido go nuts at their recommended dose. If you go above, it starts to die.

    Which supports my theory that tren-**** is caused by the sexual organs being over-stimulated, and burn out (which parallels one of the theories as to how DHT, a steroid that promotes hair growth, causes hairloss).

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    I got the same from Aspire but Palo was nice enough to send me some samples of the Aspire Lite I am going to try

    I agree the 4AD may be worth a shot but I would be way more convinced if it converted to 4-ADIOL but remember it actually converts to 4-ADIONE this is a huge difference in my opinion because the conversion from the dione to test is not very efficient at all. If it was the DIOL on the other hand that would be a different story.

    Mr.50
    This should convert to diol, not dione. just to be clear.

  16. Quigs, I believe you but in the other thread all of th eposters claimed it would convert to 4-dione rather then 4-diol. What would be the best way of clearing up this discrepancy and determinging which it will become?

    Mr.50

  17. if I recall correctly from what I've read in the past the Dione version will convert to Diol albeit at a much lower rate and there will also be much more aromatization into estrogen.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Quigs, I believe you but in the other thread all of th eposters claimed it would convert to 4-dione rather then 4-diol. What would be the best way of clearing up this discrepancy and determinging which it will become?

    Mr.50
    Well the enzyme that would convert this should be 17bHSD. Not really too sure how I could convince you. I did some searching over the last couple hours on this compound and haven't found much. I checked the reviews on BN.com, and there are a few for 4AD but nothing substantial. There are however almost all 5-star reviews for the 1AD product, which should have the same route of conversion as the 4AD.

    In addition, I found where PA commented on this product in a thread on bb.com a couple weeks ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    DHEA is 5-Androstene-3b-ol-17-one

    the stuff you are talking about is the 4 isomer. much better conversion to test than dhea (which would be the 5 isomer)
    I know its not much, but I'd have to assume that he's thinking along the same lines.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by quigs View Post
    Well the enzyme that would convert this should be 17bHSD. Not really too sure how I could convince you. I did some searching over the last couple hours on this compound and haven't found much. I checked the reviews on BN.com, and there are a few for 4AD but nothing substantial. There are however almost all 5-star reviews for the 1AD product, which should have the same route of conversion as the 4AD.

    In addition, I found where PA commented on this product in a thread on bb.com a couple weeks ago:



    I know its not much, but I'd have to assume that he's thinking along the same lines.
    Generally I think you are correct. I have to bust out the old O-Chem stuff for a review soon. But I am just wondering if PA's comment was ment to be interpreted as the 4-DHEA was much more likely to be converted to Test then 5-DHEA but this does not address if the conversion would be through the
    4-androdiol step or the 4-androdione step, it only seems to address that the functional group is on the right carbon but not what functional group it is....


    Mr.50

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Generally I think you are correct. I have to bust out the old O-Chem stuff for a review soon. But I am just wondering if PA's comment was ment to be interpreted as the 4-DHEA was much more likely to be converted to Test then 5-DHEA but this does not address if the conversion would be through the
    4-androdiol step or the 4-androdione step, it only seems to address that the functional group is on the right carbon but not what functional group it is....
    Mr.50
    Okay, here. This may illustrate my point a bit better...I know its not the best diagram, but its all I could find quick.

    Focus more on the left side. Now for purposes, we are going to pretend that DHEA is actually 4-DHEA (4-androsterone). Now if you look, DHEA converts to androstenediol via 17-beta HSD. 4-DHEA will convert the same way, except to 4-diol. Now, the main thing to remember here is that 17-beta HSD is the main enzyme we're going to face in the GI tract....its the same thing that seems to convert oral testosterone into androstendione interfering with testosterone's oral bioavailability. We are not going to see much, if any, 3-beta HSD enzyme in the GI...which would cause conversion to 4-DIONE. This product will be taken orally, so that's what we want.

    Now, where we're going to see a lot of 3-beta HSD is in liver and muscle tissue. So what the progression should be is:

    4-androsterone--->4-diol (via 17-beta HSD in the gut) then...
    4-diol---->testosterone (via 3-beta HSD in the liver/muscle tissue)


    Here's a paper for a bit more support:
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBMED
    Testosterone metabolism by the rat gastrointestinal tract, in vitro and in vivo.

    We have shown previously that the capacity of the jejunal (small intestine) mucosa to oxidise testosterone to the weaker androgen, androstenedione, by the enzyme 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17 beta-HSD), is considerable. The present study extends these earlier observations by measuring 17 beta-HSD activity in different regions of the gastrointestinal tract, by investigating the potential for testosterone metabolism by slices and everted sacs of rat jejunum, and estimating the contribution of intestinal testosterone metabolites to circulating levels of plasma androgens, by portal vein sampling in the rat, in vivo. 17 beta-HSD activity in homogenates of gastric and duodenal mucosa was significantly higher than that in jejunum, and was also present in ileum and colon. In addition to androstenedione, slices and everted sacs of rat jejunum produced various metabolites, one of which was probably dihydrotestosterone. It was not, however, a major metabolite in vivo. It is suggested that 5 alpha-reduction may be favoured in vitro by a lower oxidation-reduction potential resulting from tissue anoxia. The major portal vein metabolite was androstenedione, the same major metabolite produced by mucosal homogenates. We conclude that oxidation of testosterone is the major metabolic pathway in intestinal mucosa and the capacity of the gastrointestinal tract to reduce the potency of testosterone is considerable. Our findings suggest that the gut, rather than the liver, is responsible for the failure of oral testosterone to provide effective androgen replacement therapy. The qualitative difference in testosterone metabolism between in vitro and in vivo preparations emphasises the need for caution in the interpretation of similar in vitro experiments.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  21. Quigs, thanks for the informative and helpfuly post. It is much clearer now


    Mr.50

  22. If u want a tren product just buy IBE's Epistane. Neoborn can explain it in detail for u. Isn't that right Neo!!

  23. I don't know if this means anything but I'm on day 6 of a 30mg epi and 50mg of halo. I've done 2 preivous cycles of halo and libido on it was through the roof. My libido before this was awesome. Only day 6 and its as if my libido is shot to sh1t. Kinda weird I don't know what to think of this mistery compound.

  24. Dont forget about G.E.T's new product(makers of Sus500) Tren 250 they have it for sale at my local supp store yet I havent found it on line
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 39
    Last Post: 05-24-2017, 06:55 PM
  2. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-17-2014, 03:14 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-21-2008, 02:21 PM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-13-2008, 07:30 AM
  5. Calcium'is the Key to Staying Slim After 50'
    By yeahright in forum 35 and Older
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-19-2007, 10:35 AM
Log in
Log in