Orals at the END of an injectable cycle?

Orals at the end of an injectable cycle?

  • Take fast-acting orals while the long acting esters clear.

    Votes: 10 83.3%
  • Let esters clear and stay away from any additional androgens.

    Votes: 2 16.7%

  • Total voters
    12
drguitar78

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I recently saw a post that suggested use of epistane at the end of an anabolic cycle and it got me thinking. When running a cycle of long acting injectables - say eq/TE for 10 weeks (250 mg e4d each) - should one take orals with a short half-life for the 2 weeks after the last injection to keep androgens levels above anabolic threshold while the long acting esters clear? This would hopefully keep you anabolic until right before you start PCT, instead of having lower androgen levels while still having HTPA suppression during the 2nd-3rd week after the last injection.

Also, if this is a good idea, what orals would be best suited to this?

Would any orals be particularly bad due to their ability to suppress HTPA, acting to "deprime" your HTPA before PCT, resulting in less responsive PCT?

Please post your feedback!
 
beebab

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yes, it's a very good idea to supplement with an oral toward the end of an injectable so that you can maintain your gains and/or keep them coming while the esters clear. otherwise, you're prob gonna be disappointed. but this is generally a very common thing to do
 
drguitar78

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yes, it's a very good idea to supplement with an oral toward the end of an injectable so that you can maintain your gains and/or keep them coming while the esters clear. otherwise, you're prob gonna be disappointed. but this is generally a very common thing to do
hey thanks,

I didn't know that this was a common practice. Can you suggest good orals to use? Also...as I mentioned in the post, what do you think about certain orals being overly suppressive....for example: dianabol has estrogenic activity, so that will increase suppression at the hypo/pit, right?...would this be bad right before PCT?

thanks again...

btw, I'm kinda new here, but like this forum a lot...nice to meet you beebab
 
thesinner

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Dianabol or Epistane, are both very commonly used for this.
 
thesinner

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thanks sinner....what do you think about the shutdown aspect with dianabol?
The more shut down you become, the harder it gets to shut down further. Your test levels will approach a limit of zero (but never actually get there). Since you're at the end of the cycle, you're already shutdown pretty good.
 
drguitar78

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you're already shut down from the test...
Yes Gixxer, that's definitely right....thanks. I was just thinking that some compounds probably shut down the system more than others and was wondering if Dianabol might be one of those hypothetical steroids. From what I understand, Hypo/Pit shutdown is exacerbated by estrogenic agonists. If this is true, then it might be worth considering the estrogenic activity of your end-of-cycle-oral...i.e. does the estrogenic activity of dianabol or it's metabolites lead to decreased responsiveness to post-cycle therapy when compared to test/eq?
 
Travis

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Yes Gixxer, that's definitely right....thanks. I was just thinking that some compounds probably shut down the system more than others and was wondering if Dianabol might be one of those hypothetical steroids. From what I understand, Hypo/Pit shutdown is exacerbated by estrogenic agonists. If this is true, then it might be worth considering the estrogenic activity of your end-of-cycle-oral...i.e. does the estrogenic activity of dianabol or it's metabolites lead to decreased responsiveness to post-cycle therapy when compared to test/eq?
Thats probably not an easy question to answer. I am guessing it varies with every user. The only way you would really know is to try it yourself, maybe going with a milder compound like epi to finish a first cycle and see how you recover during pct.

Another reason guys like things like epi at the end of the cycle is the dryer gains. Whereas with dbol of course you would be retaining more water.

Its a good thought though. :thumbsup:
 
drguitar78

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The more shut down you become, the harder it gets to shut down further. Your test levels will approach a limit of zero (but never actually get there). Since you're at the end of the cycle, you're already shutdown pretty good.
Just saw this after my last post....that makes sense, and I trust your opinion (you've got all those crowns and stuff!).

Still, something is bothering me about it...making me think harder :frustrate ...If anyone has any articles on dianabol's metabolic/enzyme/receptor/ligand kinetics, or better yet, it's effects on the hypo/pit, I would appreciate.

Thanks for your advice guys....I DO appreciate it...and I will remember what you said for sure...I am just the type that takes advice and then keeps looking for more clues...and if the clues lead to a dead end, I will fall back on the best advice I recieved...soo...THANKS!
 
drguitar78

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Thats probably not an easy question to answer. I am guessing it varies with every user. The only way you would really know is to try it yourself, maybe going with a milder compound like epi to finish a first cycle and see how you recover during post cycle therapy.

Another reason guys like things like epi at the end of the cycle is the dryer gains. Whereas with dbol of course you would be retaining more water.

Its a good thought though. :thumbsup:
that's what I was leaning toward...and that's a great point, in that I would like to come out of my cycle without so much water retention...I guess that way I would be more mentally sound by not losing a ton of weight when the dianabol wears off. But I suppose there are arguments either way...like from which one would I benefit from more in terms of overall sustained gains after PCT is done.
 
drguitar78

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So Island Supps has the IDE COMPLETE STACK...anyone know about these and if they would benefit me in PCT?:

Epistane (for 2-3 weeks after last injection)
X-Lean (Beginning after Epi) - "amazing cort blocker"
HumanaTest (Beginning after Epi) - "super test booster"

Are these 2 jokers that they throw in the stack worth a damn? I wanted to add a cort blocker and a natural test booster to my PCT.

Thanks
 
beebab

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hey thanks,

I didn't know that this was a common practice. Can you suggest good orals to use? Also...as I mentioned in the post, what do you think about certain orals being overly suppressive....for example: dianabol has estrogenic activity, so that will increase suppression at the hypo/pit, right?...would this be bad right before post cycle therapy?

thanks again...

btw, I'm kinda new here, but like this forum a lot...nice to meet you beebab
hey nice to meet you as well drguitar! welcome to the boards :thumbsup: as per your cycle, i wouldn't be so concerned with holding a lil water during and after your cycle. if the objective of your cycle is to bulk, you're likely going to gain a little water in the process, but this is not going to hinder gains and will only contribute to you looking even fuller. focus on getting as big as you can first and repair your endocrine system during post cycle therapy... then wait a few months, work on dieting down and then follow up with more of a cutting cycle. this is assuming you're trying to bulk now. otherwise do whatever you feel you need to bro, but i'd say a little water retention is negligible if it comes with slabs of mass.
 
UnrealMachine

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a few weeks of Epi would be a kick ass finisher
 
drguitar78

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hey nice to meet you as well drguitar! welcome to the boards :thumbsup: as per your cycle, i wouldn't be so concerned with holding a lil water during and after your cycle. if the objective of your cycle is to bulk, you're likely going to gain a little water in the process, but this is not going to hinder gains and will only contribute to you looking even fuller. focus on getting as big as you can first and repair your endocrine system during post cycle therapy... then wait a few months, work on dieting down and then follow up with more of a cutting cycle. this is assuming you're trying to bulk now. otherwise do whatever you feel you need to bro, but i'd say a little water retention is negligible if it comes with slabs of mass.
Yeah...I'm not too worried about the water retention, and I would consider dianabol if it would give me better overall gains when the pct is done. Epistane claims to have some estrogen antagonism, so I was thinking that might be good for bringing the cycle to a close.

My tentative PCT:

HCG: 250 IU e3D - last 4-5 weeks of cycle up until esters clear (it didn't come in until the other day, otherwise I would have been using from the start)

Dermacrine Sustain: Beginning after last injection through ?

Natural Test Booster: ?

Cort blocker: ?

I'm thinking about skipping the SERM, because the toxicity studies scare me...but maybe I should be more worried about the result of not using it...any thoughts?
 
ozarkaBRAND

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I'm thinking about skipping the SERM, because the toxicity studies scare me...but maybe I should be more worried about the result of not using it...any thoughts?
Thoughts? Yes.. try toremifene.. It's less toxic than nolva and more effective according to nearly all anecdotal evidence I've seen.
If ur worried about toxicity run some SAMe along with the orals and the SERM.. That stuff is hella good for liver protection, and improves mood as well (in some).
 
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beebab

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Yeah...I'm not too worried about the water retention, and I would consider dianabol if it would give me better overall gains when the post cycle therapy is done. Epistane claims to have some estrogen antagonism, so I was thinking that might be good for bringing the cycle to a close.

My tentative post cycle therapy:

HCG: 250 IU e3D - last 4-5 weeks of cycle up until esters clear (it didn't come in until the other day, otherwise I would have been using from the start)

Dermacrine Sustain: Beginning after last injection through ?

Natural Test Booster: ?

Cort blocker: ?

I'm thinking about skipping the SERM, because the toxicity studies scare me...but maybe I should be more worried about the result of not using it...any thoughts?
not to sound rude bro, but it'd be foolish not to run a SERM after running a long injectable cycle, alongside a couple methylated orals here and there, because you will have natural shutdown up the a$$. a chemical SERM is the only thing that will truly help restore your natural testosterone production and block negative estrogen. you can run a SERM alongside Dermacrine Sustain for enhanced recovery - this is becoming an increasingly more popular option among users. but i'd def throw Torem or something in there.

Arimidex (Anastrozol) is a decent steroidal aromatase inhibitor and as per cortisol control you can use an OTC anti-cortisol like Retain2. any OTC test booster like Activate Xtreme would also serve you well to give you an added boost post cycle.
 
drguitar78

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Thoughts? Yes.. try toremifene.. It's less toxic than nolva and more effective according to nearly all anecdotal evidence I've seen.
Thanks, I'll look into that...upon wikiing it, I saw that it's in phase III clinical trials for treating prostate cancer and androgen deficiency therapy! Sounds promising! Do you happen to have a link to the toxicity studies? What do you recommend for protocol (dosage, duration, frequency)?
 
ozarkaBRAND

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Actually, I don't have any links to the studies, but if you do a search here on Toremifene I'm pretty sure there are some threads about it.. Anyway, as for Torm's protocol:

Week1: 120mgs(first 3 days) down to 90mgs for remainder
Week2: 90mgs
Week3: 60mgs
Week4: 30mgs
Week5 (if necessary): 30mgs
 
drguitar78

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not to sound rude bro, but it'd be foolish not to run a SERM after running a long injectable cycle, alongside a couple methylated orals here and there, because you will have natural shutdown up the a$$. a chemical SERM is the only thing that will truly help restore your natural testosterone production and block negative estrogen. you can run a SERM alongside Dermacrine Sustain for enhanced recovery - this is becoming an increasingly more popular option among users. but i'd def throw Torem or something in there.

Arimidex (Anastrozol) is a decent steroidal aromatase inhibitor and as per cortisol control you can use an OTC anti-cortisol like Retain2. any OTC test booster like Activate Xtreme would also serve you well to give you an added boost post cycle.
No offense taken...That's why I'm here to learn so I don't do anything foolish

I already have Derm Sustain - supposedly naturally derived AIs (chrysin and benzoflavone resveratrol) and an SERM (resveratrol) - so wouldn't another AI AND an SERM be overkill?

Have you read the infamous article on Derm Sust?: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/67565-everything-thats-wrong.html

I know it's a marketing ploy by the owner of the company, but it would be awesome if what he says is true about derm sustain....I emailed Eric and he said that it is suitable for PCT...of course that doesn't mean sufficient as a standalone, but this article sure suggests that it is.

I'm not saying that I think the Derm Sust is sufficient for PCT, cause I don't know the answer to that...I appreciate everyone's input!
 
drguitar78

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Actually, I don't have any links to the studies, but if you do a search here on Toremifene I'm pretty sure there are some threads about it.. Anyway, as for Torm's protocol:

Week1: 120mgs(first 3 days) down to 90mgs for remainder
Week2: 90mgs
Week3: 60mgs
Week4: 30mgs
Week5 (if necessary): 30mgs
Thanks Ozarka! How do you know if week 5 is necessary?
 
beebab

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No offense taken...That's why I'm here to get learn so I don't do anything foolish

I already have Derm Sustain - supposedly naturally derived AIs (chrysin and benzoflavone resveratrol) and an SERM (resveratrol) - so wouldn't another AI AND an SERM be overkill?

Have you read the infamous article on Derm Sust?: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/67565-everything-thats-wrong.html

I know it's a marketing ploy by the owner of the company, but it would be awesome if what he says is true about derm sustain....I emailed Eric and he said that it is suitable for PCT...of course that doesn't mean sufficient as a standalone, but this article sure suggests that it is.

I'm not saying that I think the Derm Sust is sufficient for PCT, cause I don't know the answer to that...I appreciate everyone's input!
depending on what you're running, you could use a steroidal AI (like Arimidex) ON cycle to prevent aromitization to estrogen and inhibit gyno. the phyto AI complex in Dermacrine may or may not be sufficent enough depending on how you dose Dermacrine Sustain. which is why it's always a good idea to have some other type of AI on hand.

a SERM, on the other hand, is a completely different case. it will not inhibit estrogen but will utilize your excess estrogen and block the negative effects of estrogen on tissue. it will also help restore your test.
 
ozarkaBRAND

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Thanks Ozarka! How do you know if week 5 is necessary?
Well, without having bloodwork done I'd say the best alternative is to pay attention to your boys and the way you feel.. Worn down, still got some shrinkage? Then go for that fifth week definitely.
 
ozarkaBRAND

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My tentative PCT:

HCG: 250 IU e3D - last 4-5 weeks of cycle up until esters clear (it didn't come in until the other day, otherwise I would have been using from the start)

Dermacrine Sustain: Beginning after last injection through ?

Natural Test Booster: Drive+RPM

Cort blocker: Lean Xtreme or Retain 2.0

I'm thinking about skipping the SERM, because the toxicity studies scare me...but maybe I should be more worried about the result of not using it...any thoughts?
I gave a few more suggestions in bold.. just my .02
 
drguitar78

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depending on what you're running, you could use a steroidal AI (like Arimidex) ON cycle to prevent aromitization to estrogen and inhibit gyno. the phyto AI complex in Dermacrine may or may not be sufficent enough depending on how you dose Dermacrine Sustain. which is why it's always a good idea to have some other type of AI on hand.

a SERM, on the other hand, is a completely different case. it will not inhibit estrogen but will utilize your excess estrogen and block the negative effects of estrogen on tissue. it will also help restore your test.
I definitely agree with you...at the VERY LEAST I will have an SERM on hand (I was supposed to have clomid on hand...dude didn't come through...damn the government pressures!) during PCT. Torem sounds like the way to go according to current wiki knowledge.

Eric says that resveratrol IS an SERM, though I'm not sure...

But anyway, I think I'm going to get some Torem...

Thanks guys
 
drguitar78

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Actually, I don't have any links to the studies, but if you do a search here on Toremifene I'm pretty sure there are some threads about it.. Anyway, as for Torm's protocol:

Week1: 120mgs(first 3 days) down to 90mgs for remainder
Week2: 90mgs
Week3: 60mgs
Week4: 30mgs
Week5 (if necessary): 30mgs
If I have 60 mg tabs of toremifene, is it OK to cut them i half for the 30 mg doses?
 
UnrealMachine

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If I have 60 mg tabs of toremifene, is it OK to cut them i half for the 30 mg doses?
sure why not

never seen tabs, i think most of us are using liquids
 
pistonpump

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generally you want to stay away from an oral ending if it is a wetter compound...you dont want a huge weight loss from all the water dropping off, this can be depression somewhat. Generally people will use test prop or a drier oral while the ester clears...You want to try and solidify the gains and harden up so the drop off to PCT is not so bad and you can see what you really made during the cycle.
 
drguitar78

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generally you want to stay away from an oral ending if it is a wetter compound...you dont want a huge weight loss from all the water dropping off, this can be depression somewhat. Generally people will use test prop or a drier oral while the ester clears...You want to try and solidify the gains and harden up so the drop off to post cycle therapy is not so bad and you can see what you really made during the cycle.
thanks piston...that makes a lot of sense
 
ozarkaBRAND

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Cool thanks...are those better than the IDE stack that comes with epi:

X-Lean (cort blocker)
HumanaTest (test booster)
Actually, x-lean would be fine.. and humanTest looks ok, but i myself would prolly go with something like powerfull or drive+rpm.
 

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