PCT Pulse?

MkUltra

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This idea might be completely stupid, but I thought I might as well see if anyone has heard of this or if this might work.

Ive been taking formestane along with PPlex this cycle and I want to continue at least for a couple weeks into PCT

What if the PCT looked swas SERM EOD and AI on the opposite days?
Would that be messing up hormone levels even worse?
SERM, AI together, good or bad??
 
RisingAgainst

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SERM and AI should ALWAYS be used together, EOD dosing is the retarded part... NEVER EVER EVER EVER use a SERM without an AI.. SERMs do NOT reduce estrogen in ANY WAY, don't listen to the "gurus" who pretend they know what they're talking about. :D
 
drksun

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SERM and AI should ALWAYS be used together, EOD dosing is the retarded part... NEVER EVER EVER EVER use a SERM without an AI.. SERMs do NOT reduce estrogen in ANY WAY, don't listen to the "gurus" who pretend they know what they're talking about. :D
serms might not actively reduce estrogen but they in a way make it inert, they do have agonistic properties in certain tissues but in a good way, such as in bones. If you completely eliminate estrogen wont that make it take longer to get your HPTA function back on track, dosen't the serm in a way trick you brain, so it sees high estrogen, low test, even though that estrogen is inert in certain tissues because it cant bind to the receptors, allowing your hpta to restart faster.
 
RisingAgainst

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serms might not actively reduce estrogen but they in a way make it inert, they do have agonistic properties in certain tissues but in a good way, such as in bones. If you completely eliminate estrogen wont that make it take longer to get your HPTA function back on track, dosen't the serm in a way trick you brain, so it sees high estrogen, low test, even though that estrogen is inert in certain tissues because it cant bind to the receptors, allowing your hpta to restart faster.
you're on the right track, but are lacking a few key points and downsides. Muscle tissue retains estrogen with SERMs, therein making them inefficient with preservation. Some SERMs (tamox for ex.) will LOWER igf and gh levels significantly. Some other SERMs have very strong pro's and some have very strong con's. SERM + some form of anti-estrogen is the ONLY way to go man, no matter how you slice it.
 
datBtrue

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SERM + some form of anti-estrogen is the ONLY way to go man, no matter how you slice it.
OR a very effective way is to heavily use an AI in the closing weeks of the cycle up to the time when a SERM is introduced. This way no AI is needed at least in the early part of a SERM based PCT.
 
RisingAgainst

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OR a very effective way is to heavily use an AI in the closing weeks of the cycle up to the time when a SERM is introduced. This way no AI is needed at least in the early part of a SERM based post cycle therapy.
Agreed, partly why I either taper my AI up starting very low on week 1, or don't include it til week 2.
 
drksun

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aren't people using atd inversely with a serm, starting with a serm and lowering the dose while inversely increasing the AI dose? but cant this cause a rebound when you stop the AI? i guess you would have to taper off..
 
bound

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What if the PCT looked swas SERM EOD and AI on the opposite days?
Would that be messing up hormone levels even worse?
SERM, AI together, good or bad??
SERM EOD also probably wouldn't make sense because of the very long half-lives of serms.
 
TripDog

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SERM EOD also probably wouldn't make sense because of the very long half-lives of serms.
I do agree due to half lifes one could probably get away with an eod dose,but i like to be safe not sorry!
 
B5150

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SERM and AI should ALWAYS be used together, EOD dosing is the retarded part... NEVER EVER EVER EVER use a SERM without an AI.. SERMs do NOT reduce estrogen in ANY WAY, don't listen to the "gurus" who pretend they know what they're talking about. :D
Sorry, but I am more inclined to listen to the professionals and doctors over yourself. Others should consider doing their research as well.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/438156-post34.html

Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During PCT - Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134238595
 

DerekAdams1

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But RA is a Guru!! I am playing with you RA.

So no AI's during PCT. SERM/ATD inveresed seems to be the best am I correct on this? Should 1 use a SERM fora couple of weeks considering the half life of them? To reap the benefits of HPTA correction? Then continue on with the ATD? After the taper up of ATD and Taper down of SERM's should one Taper down the ATD afterwards?

D
 
B5150

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What do you mean in depth?

The reason AI's should not be used during post cycle therapy is the simple fact you are trying to restore natural balance to the endocrine pathways. Administering a powerful endocrine disrupter in counterproductive to that end. THEN add in the estrogen rebound of AI's, and subsquent increased risk of gyno.

Next, you extend the period the Lipid Profile is trashed, and therefore time of plaque deposition within the cardiovascular system, should you drive E too low--and that is easy to do once the cycle has ended. And no, Aromisin has not been shown to comparatively avoid this risk in male subjects.

--------------------------------------

AI's are to be used during the cycle, to maintain physiological levels of estrogen, and D/C'd once T levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to that induced by 200mg per week IM.

I just don't think anyone who understands how the endocrine system functions would ever recommend an AI for post cycle therapy.
 

DerekAdams1

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What do you mean in depth?
I read that part. I meant I just scan threw the links. I understand the whole AI but what about the ATD/SERM question I asked. I thought AI and ATD were different?
 
drksun

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AI- Armostaize Inhibiter

ATD- Anti-Estrogen

Ok I feel stupid.
lol ATD is a type of AI, atd is a weak androgen that binds its the aromatase enzyme and acts as an antagonist, preventing other androgens from binding and converting to estrogen through the enzyme.
 
datBtrue

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Sorry, but I am more inclined to listen to the professionals and doctors ...
Doctor Swale - "I just don't think anyone who understands how the endocrine system functions would ever recommend an AI for post cycle therapy."

Doctor Dana Houser - "Make no mistake, SERMs have their place...as I hate to suggest a "one-size-fits-all" post cycle therapy. What I can do is suggest a "one-size-fits-MOST" and with that said, I personally favor:

Clomid + AI for a majority of cases" - at: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/1099105-post92.html

Which doctor do you listen to my man?
 
RisingAgainst

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I just don't think anyone who understands how the endocrine system functions would ever recommend an AI for post cycle therapy.
B.. you're a kewl guy for the most part, but you're talking out of your anus right now.. since I am out of town working and just saw this, I will let DINOIII try and explain this to you..
 
RisingAgainst

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Doctor Swale - "I just don't think anyone who understands how the endocrine system functions would ever recommend an AI for post cycle therapy."

Doctor Dana Houser - "Make no mistake, SERMs have their place...as I hate to suggest a "one-size-fits-all" post cycle therapy. What I can do is suggest a "one-size-fits-MOST" and with that said, I personally favor:

Clomid + AI for a majority of cases" - at: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/1099105-post92.html

Which doctor do you listen to my man?
Amen to that... whoever this Dr Swale is... he's RETARDED... b, maybe it's you who should be doing research my friend.
 
B5150

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B.. you're a kewl guy for the most part, but you're talking out of your anus right now.. since I am out of town working and just saw this, I will let DINOIII try and explain this to you..
Amen to that... whoever this Dr Swale is... he's RETARDED... b, maybe it's you who should be doing research my friend.
Do you know who SWALE is?

I don't care if you think I am kewl or not. Don't talk to me this way. This may be your outspoken way of communicating but it won't fly when you are trying to communicate with me. OK?
 
Dwight Schrute

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Amen to that... whoever this Dr Swale is... he's RETARDED... b, maybe it's you who should be doing research my friend.
I hope you're kidding.
 
B5150

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This does not sound:
SERM and AI should ALWAYS be used together, EOD dosing is the retarded part... NEVER EVER EVER EVER use a SERM without an AI.. SERMs do NOT reduce estrogen in ANY WAY, don't listen to the "gurus" who pretend they know what they're talking about. :D
anything like this:
Doctor Dana Houser - "Make no mistake, SERMs have their place...as I hate to suggest a "one-size-fits-all" post cycle therapy. What I can do is suggest a "one-size-fits-MOST" and with that said, I personally favor:
 
Dwight Schrute

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Doctor Swale - "I just don't think anyone who understands how the endocrine system functions would ever recommend an AI for post cycle therapy."

Doctor Dana Houser - "Make no mistake, SERMs have their place...as I hate to suggest a "one-size-fits-all" post cycle therapy. What I can do is suggest a "one-size-fits-MOST" and with that said, I personally favor:

Clomid + AI for a majority of cases" - at: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/1099105-post92.html

Which doctor do you listen to my man?
I listen to the one who lectures at a4m conferences and writes papers on the subject as well as treats people every single day within a clinical environment.
 

DerekAdams1

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I listen to the one who lectures at a4m conferences and writes papers on the subject as well as treats people every single day within a clinical environment.
Which one does that?
 

dinoiii

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Doctor Swale - "I just don't think anyone who understands how the endocrine system functions would ever recommend an AI for post cycle therapy."

Doctor Dana Houser - "Make no mistake, SERMs have their place...as I hate to suggest a "one-size-fits-all" post cycle therapy. What I can do is suggest a "one-size-fits-MOST" and with that said, I personally favor:

Clomid + AI for a majority of cases" - at: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/1099105-post92.html

Which doctor do you listen to my man?

If by "Doctor Swale" we are referencing Dr. John Crisler, DO then I will say this...I have read some of his work BUT unless you get him in here to discuss this openly with me, I will NOT attack him nor whatever else may run rampant on bb message boards. This is a professional courtesy I am sure he would extend to me as well.

That said, I maintain my position personally (even though I believe quotes can sometimes be taken out of context - this particular was a good summary statement taken by DatBTrue).

I remind you all that much of the work written by others pretty much reads as though they have figured out that "one-size-fits-all" mantra I tend to avoid with patients. My work can be found on many sites, internet areas if you are interested in reading further on the statements I make.

Oh yeah, I am "somewhat" well-versed in dat dere endocrine system, I assure you!


D_
 
Dwight Schrute

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Be careful when we assume only one person does things on clinical grounds here. Quite the bold assumption.

D_
So you treat people on a daily basis within this particular area?


And I didn't say he was the only one with clinical experience, I said he treated people every day within a clinical environment. Thats what he does for a living as you already know.
 

dinoiii

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So you treat people on a daily basis within this particular area?
HA! You have probably read my background - Lord knows I am very candid about it. I will NOT turn this into a "my CV et al is bigger than yours debate" as so many of these threads turn into.

Let me clear up a few things - considering your current question...the answer is NO (not in the "typical" sense you would think), I have taken a year away from the medical wards to persue 2 businesses I own which brings me back to this area we all champion.

You have me floating in unfamiliar water (AM: really only a active poster here for a few months) there sir. Still, I never pictured potential persecution by the board's owner though.

If you would like to look into my career further, you are welcome to contact me.


D_
 

dinoiii

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And I didn't said he was the only one with clinical experience, I said he treated people every day within a clinical environment. Thats what he does for a living as you already know.
Sorry - you added this part while I was responding. If we are getting down to a clinical "environment" - then yes, my businesses still deal with PH/PS/DeS/AAS work DAILY!

D_
 
Dwight Schrute

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HA! You have probably read my background - Lord knows I am very candid about it. I will NOT turn this into a "my CV et al is bigger than yours debate" as so many of these threads turn into.

Let me clear up a few things - considering your current question...the answer is NO (not in the "typical" sense you would think), I have taken a year away from the medical wards to persue 2 businesses I own which brings me back to this area we all champion.

You have me floating in unfamiliar water (AM: really only a active poster here for a few months) there sir. Still, I never pictured potential persecution by the board's owner though.

If you would like to look into my career further, you are welcome to contact me.


D_
Persecution?
 
Dwight Schrute

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Sorry - you added this part while I was responding. If we are getting down to a clinical "environment" - then yes, my businesses still deal with PH/PS/DeS/anabolic steroids work DAILY!

D_
Sorry if you think you are being "persecuted" but I honestly believe he has more experience in this area therefore I would listen to him before you. Its not personal at all, just logical IMO.

Its not saying your information is invalid at all. You are not the Doctor that a member called "retarded" which I would think in your eyes is a pretty ridiculous thing to say given Dr. Crislers credentials and experience over the years.
 
B5150

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I believe it was you that said:
Nonetheless, there will always be conflict in this area - as such there will always be room for us to have bb forums with great "debates." I still feel you would want to choose your advice wisely and as I said many posts earlier in this thread - continue to ask and question your sources - doctor, "nutritionist", trainer, otherwise. ONLY when your thoughts are congruent and you understand the whats and the whys should you proceed forward.

That last statement is probably all I could say definitively.


D_
So rather than call you retarded in response I believe asking you about your credentials, credibility and practice is more respectful. No?
 

dinoiii

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Sorry if you think you are being "persecuted" but I honestly believe he has more experience in this area therefore I would listen to him before you. Its not personal at all, just logical IMO.
Ya know, I was once quoted as not having as much advice to offer because someone had done more cycles than me. What's interesting is this person is no longer with us. Logic goes out the window on something with a dearth of research. If I have to speak at more A4M Conferences...so be it. I actually find body composition fascinating and while endocrinology is my active passion, I could never have suggested such a narrow focus to leave me satisfied (and yet still, even in my ward-absence, I field likely about 100+ cases per DAY in what I do now that deal with direct hormonal relationships, still 200+ more on body composition persuit without anabolics).



Its not saying your information is invalid at all. You are not the Doctor that a member called "retarded" which I would think in your eyes is a pretty ridiculous thing to say given Dr. Crislers credentials and experience over the years.
No, I completely agree on this. I think the comment was out of line. In the work that I have read from Crisler, I have enjoyed it - do NOT get me wrong. But my choice to not adopt some of his teaching you would have to trust is an educated move as well (think closely about how RA was chastized above for suggesting the word "NEVER" and the statement that was pulled out of Crisler's work was also an all-or none phenomenon).

In any event, My initial attempts were to merely sway this to something other than a "Me Vs. Him" scenario and become one of those threads that deteriorates fast (as so many before it). In fact, I would have payed no attention had my name not been brought into this.

Now, perhaps we can address people's assumption that so-called "research chems" are always labeled accurately while suggestion of proper application of either mine or Crisler's material at that point may be a completely moot point.


D_
 

dinoiii

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I believe it was you that said:

So rather than call you retarded in response I believe asking you about your credentials, credibility and practice is more respectful. No?
Before we get too far off the beaten path, I want to again re-state that the "retarded" comment was uncalled for. I really think name calling and the drama presented by most boards should be outlawed actually.

What I was suggesting by the satement you quoted me on above is NOT to question the credentials actually. I was suggesting to continue questioning the material, NO MATTER the source.


D_
 
Dwight Schrute

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Before we get too far off the beaten path, I want to again re-state that the "retarded" comment was uncalled for. I really think name calling and the drama presented by most boards should be outlawed actually.

We try. Then we're accused of censorship and protectionism.


Then we laugh. :)


...but I've never been associated with persecution ;)
 

dinoiii

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We try. Then we're accused of censorship and protectionism.


Then we laugh. :)


...but I've never been associated with persecution ;)
Perhaps a strong word choice I will admit, BUT I do find it engaging to be the "first."

Now please explain these lesions on my hands and feet. :blink:


D_
 
Dwight Schrute

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Perhaps a strong word choice I will admit, BUT I do find it engaging to be the "first."

Now please explain these lesions on my hands and feet. :blink:


D_
:run:
 
Dr. John

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Please allow me to flesh out a few points, so my previous work is better understood.

To minimize the risk of permanent HPTA shutdown, I think it is very important to: (1) use HCG regularly during the cycle. This maintains testicular function, for the most part, and also stimulates the conversion of CHOL to pregnenolone, by virtue of its effects on the CYP450scc enzyme. As perhaps some of you remember, I first brought this concept to the forefront, and was later proven by several important studies--long AFTER many had already successfully used the protocol. lol
(2) Appropriate use of AI's during the cycle, so estrogen is kept in check all along the way. Not only is it suppressive, and brings untoward subjective side effects, I most fear cancer down the road due to build-up of dangerous 4-OHE and 16-OHE in those who don't, so also want to see a good load of daily anti-oxidants on board as well. Of note, no where am I recommending driving E too low--that is dangerous and counterproductive as well.

I think a lot of confusion comes from lack of agreement on just when IS the cycle over? Depending upon particulars, it could be, literally, several weeks status post final injection. If one chooses to use Deca, I have seen profound HPTA-suppression for months (although recovery can begin much sooner, of course). So when I speak of "post cycle", I mean when serum androgen levels have dropped below the top of normal range. BTW, clomid is not effective until serum T falls to a concentration roughly equal to that produced by 200mg per week of test cyp.

So E should be controlled while it is still elevated, otherwise it continues to suppress the HPTA. But after that, using an AI-- there by forcing E too low--extends the time of Lipid Profile damage, further inhibits sexual function, etc etc. IOW, it extends the time of damage to health from using steroids.

I'd stick to a SERM-class drug post cycle when possible. It is only when same fails I would employ an AI in a more aggressive therapy. Otherwise you risk the ill side effects previously described. I hope this clears this up for all.

The TRUE goal of post cycle therapy is not often described well. The idea is not just to bring T back up. The more scientific and professional approach is to think in terms of restoring hormonal metabolic pathways. Therefore, using ANY powerful endocrine-disrupting drug is contrary to this strategy. And, no doubt, all AI's fall into this category.

Obviously, then, goofy ideas such as using finasteride for PCT should be promptly ignored in particular, and the propagators of same in general.

Let's always be careful to not extrapolate conclusions for otherwise healthy adult males from studies conducted on, for instance, postmenopausal females. The hormonal milieu between males and females is just that different. It seems as though one guy posts a study on the latter group, and a week later hundreds of self-proclaimed Internet gurus post their mistaken notions as if same were proven fact. I read several examples of what I speak in this very thread.
 
RisingAgainst

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hah.. you know.. b5150, the more I deal with you, the more pathetic I realize you are... have a good cry for me. PEACE.
 

dinoiii

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Thank you for chiming in here Dr. Crisler.

For those reading along: I really don't think our ideas are all that different per se - just two statements compared out of a certain plethora.

Dr. Crisler's definition of "cycle conclusion" is rather tell-tale actually in that the "one-size-fits-all" PCT is virtual mythology. I think anyone familiar with my writing would note this to be very similar to my offering.


D_
 
UNCfan1

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Dinoiii, sorry to go off topic but u have an e-mail. Take ur time getting to it, just letting u know.

Continue on with this great discussion.
 
Dr. John

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Just thought of something else. It's also important to not use HCG too long status post AAS. Otherwise, the T production so induced will suppress the HP.

It's a bit of a balancing act as to the best time to d/c the HCG: you want to keep the testes up and running until gonadotropins pick up, but if you do it too long, they won't (or are inhibited).

I think it's a given these days low dose HCG is the way to go. NEVER more than 500iu at a time (and just 100iu QD is a very effective dose), otherwise you do not produce more T, but E and progesterone--both feminizing hormones not meant for adult males--continue to rise.
 
B5150

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hah.. you know.. b5150, the more I deal with you, the more pathetic I realize you are... have a good cry for me. PEACE.
You have been warned multiple times about insulting and abusive talk towards members. Now this too. OK
 

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