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    Question Confused


    Hey guys

    I've been doing some research on prohomores for a while but I'm still really confused.

    If you guys could put send me in a direction it would be very helpful.

    I was going to order T1 but I'm too scared of the hair loss. So I thought 1,4DIOL or 4AD would be better.

    I just want to put some mass on, nothing huge like 40lbs or anything, about twenty would be ideal.

    Sorry for all these newbie questions, but like I said, I've been very confused on the subject.

    Thanks for any help you guys can offer!

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    Well, 1test is really the best mass builder out there. You could easily put on 20lbs in 4-6weeks with it (if your diet and training are good)

    Have you had problems with hair loss in the past?

    As for a safety stack, I would run 1,4diol with nor-diol. That should be very little estrogen and very little DHT. Go with transdermal nordiol and 1,4 oral.

    4Ad is a good bulking agent, but it converts to test, which converts to dht. So, there comes in your hair loss.

    Whatever you decide, I would take some saw palmetto along side it just to be safe.

    Good luck, and if you have any more questions, feel free to ask (I'm sure some more guys will throw in their input also)
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    Originally posted by liontamer
    Hey guys


    I was going to order T1 but I'm too scared of the hair loss. So I thought 1,4DIOL or 4AD would be better.


    Sorry for all these newbie questions, but like I said, I've been very confused on the subject.

    Thanks for any help you guys can offer!
     

    I'm doing 1,4-diol/4-AD (been on the 1,4-diol 400mg/day for about 6 days...waiting for my 4-AD in the mail)...and I expect it to be a good cycle...I'm gonna run the 4-AD @ about 4-500mg/day and I dont plan to increase it unless I'm not getting results...then, and ONLY then will I up the dose to like 600mg/day.

    I'm gonna run the 4-AD for as long as the 1,4-andro lasts (should be about 4 more weeks)...

    I plan to only put on about 8-10 pounds...Im not looking for any more than that...

    But going along w/ what pogue said about the nor-diol/1,4-androdiol...that is your best bet for fewer sides....HOWEVER...

    Since they are both "diol" prohormones they will be competeing for the same conversion enzymes (the 17-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase I believe) and if you take too much of the two of these together they will oversaturate the enzymes and some of the PH will not be converted....

    A solution to this is get the 1,4-dione and nor-diol..both of them use different enzymes to convert into the target hormones and therefore you completely eliminate the chance of oversaturating the enzymes (unless you do *extremely* high doses of each).

    ...And dont worry about the n00b questions....we were all there at one time or another

     

    LG.
    •   
       

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    So I should take a look at the precapped 1,4-diol, 100 mg x 60 caps?

    Reccomended dossage?

    Where can I find this palmetto? Health food store or a pharmacy?

    Thanks a lot guys for your patience! It's becoming clearer now!
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    Originally posted by liontamer
    So I should take a look at the precapped 1,4-diol, 100 mg x 60 caps?

    Reccomended dossage?

    Where can I find this palmetto? Health food store or a pharmacy?

    Thanks a lot guys for your patience! It's becoming clearer now!
    Well...you can use the 1,4-diol with the nor-diol (but I recommend the 1,4-dione with the nor-diol)...

    ...And you can run the 1,4-andro at about 4-600mg/day orally along with about 3-400mg/day nor-diol transdermally...

    You can find Saw Palmetto at the locla drug store and whatnot...go for about 2x the dosage that the bottle says

     

    If you want more benefits you will use the 1,4-DIONE and nor-diol

     

    LG.
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    If that is the case, I would go for the 1,4dione also. Also know as 1,4andro or Bolidione. You can pick these up from 1fast400

    @Lifeguard: Does 1-test and 1,4diol compete for the same enzyme? I know 1-test is also a diol. (Or is this only the case with 1ad oral)
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    Originally posted by pogue

    @Lifeguard: Does 1-test and 1,4diol compete for the same enzyme? I know 1-test is also a diol. (Or is this only the case with 1ad oral)
    Well...1-Test is a steroid that does not need conversion...but 1-AD is a diol, so yes 1-AD and 1,4-diol compete for the same enzyme for conversion.

     

    LG.
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    Thanks guys, you've been a lot of help!
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    Keep us posted on your results
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    Re: Re: Confused


    Originally posted by Lifeguard


    A solution to this is get the 1,4-dione and nor-diol..both of them use different enzymes to convert into the target hormones and therefore you completely eliminate the chance of oversaturating the enzymes (unless you do *extremely* high doses of each).

    ...And dont worry about the n00b questions....we were all there at one time or another

     

    LG.
    So dude, there is no balding side effects with the 1, -dione and nor-diol??

    Sorry, kinda unclear.
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    WEll im gonna chime in here with my added input(and i better see some nice karm too hehehe)


    Don't expect any real hair loss from nor-diol.


    1-dione on the other hand may cause (VERY SLIGHT) hair loss. It may be not noticeable but one guy from bodbuilding.com who is very knowledgeable on hair loss was doing boldione and he got some hair loss he said and quickly had to take medications to stop it.


    Heres my ultimate opinion though.

    If you are very very hardcore and are gonna be completely bald by 50 years old i would only do nor-diol.

    If you think you just might have moderate thining by 50 years old i would be slightly more aggressive and eventually try more aggressive prohormones such as 4-AD or 1,4 diol or 1-test or 1-AD.
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    Thanks for your input!
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    Let me caution that 1-test and 1-AD are probably the most aggressive on the hair line
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    I'm sure it would be very dependant on the person, but PJ is right - nordiol is the best in terms of safey. Since it converts to nortestosterone. Anything that doesn't actively convert to DHT is less taxing on your hair and prostate than anything else. Bolidone, converts to Equipoise, a vertinary hormone, which doesn't convert to DHT - but since it attatches to the androgen receptors, it can still have an effect, but like PJ says, its safer than 1-test or 4ad.
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    any 5-alpha ph would be brutal on the hairline if ur genetically prediposed to it..i dont like the idea of saw palmetto as that actually has been shown to lower test levels me personally i like lycopene for my prostate health..a nor-aderm(by aavnt labs) with some dmso would do very nicely for u stacked with 1,4 dione
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    Let me caution that 1-test and 1-AD are probably the most aggressive on the hair line
    dont i know it. two days ago, i was like....oh my, is my hair getting thinner and receding a bit??!!!? my hair the most important thing about my exterior features man. this is what draws all girls withing a 2 block radius to me man. im still pretty damn sexy but keeping my eyes on that lock real close.....real close.
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    Here is a study showing the similarities to saw palmetto to propecia (finasteride). It appears to be an anti-androgen as well as a 5ar inhibitor. I take it on cycle just as a procautionary.

    Tissue effects of saw palmetto and finasteride: use of biopsy cores for in situ quantification of prostatic androgens.

    Marks LS, Hess DL, Dorey FJ, Luz Macairan M, Cruz Santos PB, Tyler VE.

    Urological Sciences Research Foundation, Culver City, California, USA.

    OBJECTIVES: To determine the effects of a saw palmetto herbal blend (SPHB) compared with finasteride on prostatic tissue androgen levels and to evaluate needle biopsies as a source of tissue for such determinations. METHODS: Prostate levels of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) were measured on 5 to 10-mg biopsy specimens (18-gauge needle cores) in three groups of men with symptomatic benign prostatic hyperplasia: 15 men receiving chronic finasteride therapy versus 7 untreated controls; 4 men undergoing prostate adenomectomy to determine sampling variability (10 specimens each); and 40 men participating in a 6-month randomized trial of SPHB versus placebo, before and after treatment. RESULTS: Prostatic tissue DHT levels were found to be several times higher than the levels of testosterone (5.01 versus 1.51 ng/g), that ratio becoming reversed (1.05 versus 3.63 ng/g) with chronic finasteride therapy. The finasteride effect was statistically significant for both androgens (P <0.01), and little overlap of individual values between finasteride-treated and control patients was seen. In the randomized trial, tissue DHT levels were reduced by 32% from 6.49 to 4.40 ng/g in the SPHB group (P <0.005), with no significant change in the placebo group. CONCLUSIONS: For control versus finasteride-treated men, the tissue androgen values obtained with needle biopsy specimens were similar-both for absolute values and the percentage of change-to those previously reported using surgically excised volumes of prostatic tissue. The quantification of prostatic androgens by assay of needle biopsies is thus feasible and offers the possibility of serial studies in individual patients. The SPHB-induced suppression of prostatic DHT levels, modest but significant in a randomized trial, lends an element of support to the hypothesis that inhibition of the enzyme 5-alpha reductase is a mechanism of action of this substance.

    J Urol 2000 May;163(5):1408-12 Related Articles, Links


    Saw palmetto for the treatment of men with lower urinary tract symptoms.

    Gerber GS.

    Section of Urology, Department of Surgery, University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

    PURPOSE: A comprehensive review of the literature on the use of saw palmetto in men with lower urinary tract symptoms is provided. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A literature search of studies that have assessed the mechanism of action and clinical results of saw palmetto in men with benign prostatic hyperplasia was performed. RESULTS: A variety of potential mechanisms of action of saw palmetto have been demonstrated through in vitro studies, including 5-alpha reductase inhibition, adrenergic receptor antagonism and intraprostatic androgen receptor blockade. Clinical evidence of the relevance of these effects is largely unavailable. The use of saw palmetto in men with benign prostatic hyperplasia is safe with no recognized adverse effects. No effect on serum prostate specific antigen has been noted. Placebo controlled trials and meta-analyses have suggested that saw palmetto leads to subjective and objective improvement in men with lower urinary tract symptoms. However, most studies are significantly limited by methodological flaws, small patient numbers and brief treatment intervals. CONCLUSIONS: Evidence suggests that saw palmetto may have a significant effect on urinary flow rates and symptom scores compared to placebo in men with lower urinary tract symptoms. However, large scale, placebo controlled trials are needed to assess the efficacy of saw palmetto.
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    Re: Re: Confused


    Originally posted by Lifeguard


    &nbsp;

    I'm doing 1,4-diol/4-AD (been on the 1,4-diol 400mg/day&nbsp;for about 6 days...waiting for my 4-AD in the mail)...and I expect it to be a good cycle...I'm gonna run the 4-AD @ about 4-500mg/day and I dont plan to increase it unless I'm not getting results...then, and ONLY then will I up the dose to like 600mg/day.

    I'm gonna run the 4-AD for as long as the 1,4-andro lasts (should be about 4 more weeks)...

    I plan to only put on about&nbsp;8-10 pounds...Im not looking for any more than that...

    But going along w/ what pogue said about the nor-diol/1,4-androdiol...that is your best bet for fewer sides....HOWEVER...

    Since they are both "diol" prohormones they will be competeing for the same conversion enzymes (the 17-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase I believe) and if you take too much of the two of these together they will oversaturate the enzymes and some&nbsp;of the PH will not be converted....

    A solution to this is get the 1,4-dione and nor-diol..both of them use different enzymes to convert into the target hormones and therefore you completely eliminate&nbsp;the chance of oversaturating the enzymes&nbsp;(unless you do *extremely* high doses of each).

    ...And dont worry about the n00b questions....we were all there at one time or another

    &nbsp;

    LG.
    Uhh, 4-Diol converts to test via 3-beta-HSD and 4-androdione converts to test via 17HSD. More importantly, just becuase it is a "diol" does not necesarily mean that it converts to it's steroidal counter part via one converting enzyme. So your information is somewhat flawed. Case and point 4-diol converts to test via 3-beta-HSD while estradiol converts to estrone via 17HSD. They are both doils but use different conversion mechanisms.
    -AT
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    ya 1-test is a steroid
    you sould give 1-ad a try i gained very well using it.
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    if you are taking the 4ad orally, you need to take atleast 900mg/day. That's what I did and the gains weren't that great.

    If a transdermal you could get away with 300mg.

    Another piece of advice, if you take the 4ad orally, take it as much times a day as possible. For example, if you have 100mg pills....take maybe 200mg 5 times a day for 1000mg/day or 200mg 4 times a day, etc.....pills have a short half life. Want to always have that "on" feeling.
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    Re: Re: Re: Confused


    Originally posted by Lakevillethor


    Uhh, 4-Diol converts to test via 3-beta-HSD and 4-androdione converts to test via 17HSD. More importantly, just becuase it is a "diol" does not necesarily mean that it converts to it's steroidal counter part via one converting enzyme. So your information is somewhat flawed. Case and point 4-diol converts to test via 3-beta-HSD while estradiol converts to estrone via 17HSD. They are both doils but use different conversion mechanisms.
    -AT
    He was referring to 1,4diol, not 4diol. 1,4diol converts to boldenone.
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    Hey guys i'm back. Was on vacation for a bit so I haven't had a chance to post here or even order my stuff.

    So I just want to make absolutely certain. . . I should get the

    1,4-dione and nor-diol

    because of my concerns. It will have really really little, if any, side effects in result to hair loss.

    Agian, sorry for asking pretty much the same questions, it's jjust that this is important to me!
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    Yes, get Noraderm by Avantlabs (might wanna get 2, they're going to quit making it) and Boledone by Molecular Nutrition. If weigh under 160, I would do 6 squirts of Noraderm twice a day and 600mg a day of Boledone. If you weigh more than that, I would do 8 squirts twice a day and 900mg a day of Boledone (if you have to take this much, I would buy 1fast400's 1,4andro pills)

    That is my recommendation, others might have different ones. Since this is your first cycle, I recommend lower dosages.

    Good luck!
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    What's the Molecular Nutrition website? I can't seem to find it.
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    if i were u i would get the 1,4DIOL from bdc ...go to www.************.com as they carry avnt labs products very cheap too
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    Originally posted by liontamer
    What's the Molecular Nutrition website? I can't seem to find it.
    www.molecularnutrition.net

    don't buy direct, i recommend www.1fast400.com
    mike is top notch
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    Ah crap, I decided on just Noraderm from Avant Labs, however. . .

    I was going to wait till i got some more money together and get it after christmas, but I guess I waited too long.

    Noraderm was the only prohormone that I was really goin to give a chance. . .

    I think I'm just going to wait a bit longer before I use prohormones. I'm still too paranoid about loseing my hair at my age.

    I want to thank all those who have helped in this thread (pogue, ssage, lifeguard and all the rest i forgot to mention).

    Good luck guys, and keep on lifting!
  

  
 

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