Newbie Cycles, part 2

[celc5]

A few months ago, I drew up my personal guidelines for beginner cycles. I decided to give it a whurl again as I plan for my second cycle. I definately still consider myself a newbie, although a bit more educated this time around. Comments, criticism, discussion, and questions are all welcome. I'll be posting this on multiple boards to get more feedback.

My prefered choices are in (parenthesis).

ON Cycle:
BP/Heart Support (CoQ10, Hawthorne Berry with 2 week preload)
Cholesterol Support (Niacin, EFA)

Optional/conditional considerations ON Cycle:
Liver Support (SAMe, Salymarin
If dry: joint support (cissus)
Libido Enhancer: Tribulus (Vitrix)
If wet or aromatizing: AI (formestane)
Lethary: Stim (no preference)
Taurine (bulk taurine or NOW caps)

Post Cycle:
AI (formestane, 6brom, 6oxo)
Cort Control (bulk arginine weeks 1-2, 7-O (Lean Xtreme) weeks 3-6)
Test Booster (Divanil aka Nettle Root- Activate)

Conditional Post Cycle considerations:
SERM (Torem)
Lidido Enhancer: Trib (Vitrix)
Creatine (SizeOn)
ZMA (no preference)
Continuation of ON cycle support supplements
Continuation of Taurine (if pumps were present and dose until they subside)
Stim (TRAC NO Extreme)


Newbie mistakes:

Dosing liver support at the same time of a methylated ph/ps.
"Stagger" dosing every 4 hours to avoid absorption conflict while still protecting your liver (source: dinoiii)

Abusing SERMS
Most newbies' primary concern is their ability to maintain libido in post cycle and dose serms very high to combat this panic. Trib and Aspire are available in emergency situations for libido. Serms are ALL toxic and most protocols do not consider very long active life of serms. Google your serm of choice and you'll see that even it's manufacturers report its toxicity (such as fareston/toremefine homepage for example)

Examples of prohormones which are commonly run without a serm include Halo clones, Propadrol, Furazadrol.

Examples that seem to differ in opinion for using a serm would include Phera clones, Tren and clones, 14ad (bold etc), Epistane and clones.

Examples that I believe IMO would require a serm include Superdrol and clones, M1T and clones, M1A and clones, stacks involving choices from the second group.

Eliminating estrogen
Running a high dose serm alongside a high dose AI can eliminate estogen. This is counter productive in that it can impair libido/sexual performance and blunt strength. Estrogen CONTROL is the way to go.

Trying to cut in post cycle
With low endogenous test levels, this is sure fire way to let your gains slip away. I believe you should increase your carbs by 100-200 grams on the first day of post cycle therapy and gradually taper them back down to your baseline intake.

Mistaking Trib for a test booster
Sorry fellas. I haven't seen any independent studies which show that trib actually effects the LH pathway. Look for products which bind to SHBG to increase "free" test. SHBG binds to test to render it inactive... this is obviously more important as test levels return as time passes in post cycle. Divanil/nettle root binds to SHBG and is found in popular test boosters such as MassFx, Activate, and Trib Test Extreme. Others have reported similar effect from bulk nettle root. Watch for % of active ingredient in these products. (source: Yeahright)

Not decreasing workout volume in post cycle
With low test, it's very easy to overtrain and completely render yourself useless in this time period. I personally cut my overall volume by about 20-30%. I personally recommend chaning your routine for post cycle to avoid the psychologically destructive potential for loss of strength at this point.

Using a "pump" product ON cycle
Pump and NO products aggravated cramping and "back pumps" for me even with water intake in the 2 gallon/day range. I suspect an additional mechanism other than kidney overload for back pumps but have not been able to justify this notion. (source: Prld2gr8ns)

Choosing to cycle when NOT ready
...Do NOT cycle if you are under 21
...You should reach a plateau in terms of body comp and strength before cycling
...Have definitive goals in terms of strength, mass, recomp, cut
...Know your EXACT caloric and macro ratios and follow them to a T


Typical First Cycle options

Halo Solo
Halo/Propadrol
Halo/Furazadrol
Halo/Formestane

Propadrol Solo

Furazadrol Solo
Furazadrol/Formestane

*It is my opinion that the above stacks could illicit a successful post cycle recovery without the use of a serm when dosed per product guidelines.


My Favorite Theories:

AI inverse to Serm
The serm is tapered off while the AI is INVERSELY ramped. (soucre: Dr.D)

Serms block estrogen receptos selectively, with primary impact on estrogen receptors in the breast tissue to ward off gyno. The serm is taper off usually for 4 weeks. Serms do not prevent formation of estrogen, they block the receptors. You want SOME estrogen to return in this time frame.

As endogenous test levels increase, there is the potential for some to aromatize to estrogen. This calls for a ramp of the AI to prevent test from converting to estrogen.

Run an NHA stack BEFORE your cycle
NHA stands for natural hormonal anabolic. These stacks inlcude an estrogen blocker, a test booster, and cort control. The nha stack will be the backbone of your post cycle plan. Opinion vary GREATLY considering the effectiveness of each individual product so you should know your post cycle plan works for you BEFORE you have your cycle

Have your post cycle therapy lined up BEFORE you start your cycle
There are many reasons why someone would "bail" on their cycle. At this point, it is imparative to follow through with your post cycle plan. If your post cycle therapy is in place, there is no anxious waiting for your products to arrive to combat issues caused by the cycle (source: Wedgy)

"Methyl Flu"
I've seen a trend that about 4 to 5 days into a cycle, many first timers experience flu-like symptoms. I experienced this myself with my first cycle, although I am unaware of the mechanism of this problem. If I had to guess, I would suspect liver stress to be the culprit. Symptoms subside within a few days and then you feel like bending barbells again :head:


Useful quotes that have helped me along the way

theBigT: Being ON is the best cort control. ...in reference to my misguided newbie questions about running cort control while cycle.

RisingAgainst: If you got it, smoke it. ...in reference to running creatine and other staples such as beta alanine on cycle.

thesinner: Study until your eyes bleed. Let them heal up and then study till they bleed again. ...in reference to how much research is necessary when planning a cycle.


*Finally, when searching the net for cycle concepts, the following are screen names that I have virtually stolen these ideas from and shoudl acknowledge the major contributions. ...Dr. D, thesinner, RisingAgainst, dinoiii, voodoo, and many others. Very little information in this thread are my own ideas.

 

[UNCfan1]

I love ur posts Celc. U have done a great job of research and getting advice from 2 of the most knowledgable guys in the business.

 

[MentalTwitch]

Yea, i just popped in casue i knew you got it under control and wanted to say good luck.

 

[UNCfan1]

Celc didn't Dinoiii say something about using Divanil a couple of weeks into ur PCT?

 

[celc5]

Celc what is Dinoiii's thoughts on using Activate Xtreme during post cycle therapy? Didn't he say something about using Divanil a couple of weeks into ur PCT?

I hadn't discussed that particular topic with him. There is a VERY old thread on DA where has discussed it and Dr. D made a brief cameo in that one as well. I also believe this may have discussed it the recent activate extreme thread/log from a few months ago. I am unsure of dino's stance on activate extreme in post cycle therapy.

Some speculate that it may possibly prolong suppression. My personal stance is that it is an effective and safe part of post cycle therapy.

 

[UNCfan1]

I hadn't discussed that particular topic with him. There is a VERY old thread on DA where has discussed it and Dr. D made a brief cameo in that one as well. I also believe this may have discussed it the recent activate extreme thread/log from a few months ago. I am unsure of dino's stance on activate extreme in post cycle therapy.

Some speculate that it may possibly prolong suppression. My personal stance is that it is an effective and safe part of post cycle therapy.

I think its a great addition as well, not only because of the Div, but the I3C in it. I will go dig and see what I can come up with.

 

[NasD]

celc, great post. great "1 stop shop" for newb info. PM sent with question too

 

[xjsynx]

Very informative post.

 

[celc5]

I think its a great addition as well, not only because of the Div, but the I3C in it. I will go dig and see what I can come up with.

Actually, I am VERY unfamiliar with I3C other than being aware that it has some potential in estrogen control. While we are at it, I am also in the dark with resveratrol (did I even spell it correctly? :thinkother than being aware of board hype at this point.

I'm not sure who came up with the idea but adding divanil later in post cycle was discussed in my H-drol thread. I believe it was theBigT who suggested that since total test is low immediately post cycle, there is much for divanil to actually free up. I understand his logic.

Nas, I'll look into the cort links later on and we can discuss that once I have some thoughts in order.

Mental Twitch, the serm topic questions were answered in SUBSTANTIAL depth. PM me if you haven't seen that info.

 

[NateWA]

This is exactly the kind of thread Ive been looking for. reps.

 

[dinoiii]

Celc didn't Dinoiii say something about using Divanil a couple of weeks into ur post cycle therapy?

No, he didn't. Dinoiii believes that Divanil use should be employed Day 1 of PCT.

Cortisol control agents (if they are decided upon) should be reserved for 2 weeks into PCT.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

I'm not sure who came up with the idea but adding divanil later in post cycle was discussed in my H-drol thread. I believe it was theBigT who suggested that since total test is low immediately post cycle, there is much for divanil to actually free up. I understand his logic.

Elevated E = Elevated SHBG (in fact, another name for SHBG is TeBG for Testosterone-Estrogen Binding Globulin).

You do NOT want to begin SHBG suppression when you are merely hoping for T to come back in line. Hormonal flux is NOT ideal during PCT rather than complete attempts at suppressive techniques on any end.

If you are going to employ Nettle extracts of ANY kind during your PCT, waiting 2 weeks is completely silly. Either use it at day 1 or don't use it at all!



D_

 

[celc5]

Elevated E = Elevated SHBG (in fact, another name for SHBG is TeBG for Testosterone-Estrogen Binding Globulin).

You do NOT want to begin SHBG suppression when you are merely hoping for T to come back in line. Hormonal flux is NOT ideal during post cycle therapy rather than complete attempts at suppressive techniques on any end.

If you are going to employ Nettle extracts of ANY kind during your PCT, waiting 2 weeks is completely silly. Either use it at day 1 or don't use it at all!

D_

Awesome cause that's what I do :head: Thanks for clearing that up D! :cheers:

 

[neoborn]

Major f'n bump. Love it! Good job man!

 

[tsplittorff]

Very informative!! Would save someone a lot of searching time!! :thumbsup:

 

[purepower10]

Run an NHA stack BEFORE your cycle
NHA stands for natural hormonal anabolic. These stacks inlcude an estrogen blocker, a test booster, and cort control. The nha stack will be the backbone of your post cycle plan. Opinion vary GREATLY considering the effectiveness of each individual product so you should know your post cycle plan works for you BEFORE you have your cycle


So you are suggesting that one would run an AI & Test Booster immediately followed by their cycle? Just trying to clarify as I'm a newb to PHs then run it again for PCT? If I follow you correctly, what would be the rationale behind running a NHA pre-cycle? Thanks in advance!

P.S.-GREAT POST!

 

[jpk]

Run NHA before you cycle?

I'm really glad I did this because when I tried the old NHA stack last fall, I broke out with a wicked rash on my arms and legs that took 2 weeks to clear. I could barely sleep, eat or lift during that time. That would have really chewed into the gains from any PH cycle.

 

[celc5]

So you are suggesting that one would run an AI & Test Booster immediately followed by their cycle? Just trying to clarify as I'm a newb to PHs then run it again for PCT? If I follow you correctly, what would be the rationale behind running a NHA pre-cycle? Thanks in advance!

P.S.-GREAT POST!

Now that I reread my sentence, I completely see how you misinterpretted what I meant. Let me clarify:

I'm not talking specifically as a "pre-cycle" plan. For example, I personally liked Formestane or 6oxo in nha stacks that I've ran over the past few years but personally get nothing out of Jungle Warfare.

Controversy aside, the consensus seems to like JW, so it could get approved as your post cycle AI when you draw up a plan. Let's say I had JW in my post cycle plan because I hadn't ran it before and others liked it. I could have lost all my gains from ON cycle during post cycle therapy because I'm a non-responder to that product.

In short, I'm suggesting to try most of your post cycle products before you draw up your plan. Does that clear things up?

 

[nunes]

Elevated E = Elevated SHBG (in fact, another name for SHBG is TeBG for Testosterone-Estrogen Binding Globulin).

You do NOT want to begin SHBG suppression when you are merely hoping for T to come back in line. Hormonal flux is NOT ideal during PCT rather than complete attempts at suppressive techniques on any end.

If you are going to employ Nettle extracts of ANY kind during your PCT, waiting 2 weeks is completely silly. Either use it at day 1 or don't use it at all!



D_

it makes sense , but have you already saw blood tests that show that its better go with divanil on day 1?

 

[purepower10]

Now that I reread my sentence, I completely see how you misinterpretted what I meant. Let me clarify:

I'm not talking specifically as a "pre-cycle" plan. For example, I personally liked Formestane or 6oxo in nha stacks that I've ran over the past few years but personally get nothing out of Jungle Warfare.

Controversy aside, the consensus seems to like JW, so it could get approved as your post cycle AI when you draw up a plan. Let's say I had JW in my post cycle plan because I hadn't ran it before and others liked it. I could have lost all my gains from ON cycle during post cycle therapy because I'm a non-responder to that product.

In short, I'm suggesting to try most of your post cycle products before you draw up your plan. Does that clear things up?

Yep! Makes all the sense in the world! Thanks! I can understand why most feel you don't need a SERM for H-Drol solo and Fura solo, but why do you feel you don't need one for the beginner stacks you've mentioned above? Coincidently I have H-Drol and Fura which why I'm so glad I ran across this thread. This would be my first cycle. I was thinking about stacking the two. I recently ordered a SERM as advised but then ran across this thread. I was thinking of running Fura @ 200mg/day and H-drol @ 100mg/day. Are you saying an AI would suffice for this cycle?

EDIT: Just saw you said "when dosed per product guidelines" which is 100mg of Fura a day.

 

[AaronJP1]

Another very good read!