Independent Lab testing end user co-operative?

[RoadBlocK]

Im not sure where this should be posted, or even how to really explain exactly what Im talking about, but I will try.

I have always wondered about the authenticity of COAs posted by various companys, and also the lack of uptodate COAs for concurrent/later batches/runs of product.

There are a few science types who have (supposidly) tested products on their own, or have had test done through labs.

Im wondering if anyone has ever thought about, or perhaps would consider donating to a group funded independent verification of products/COAs.

In simple terms, when a new product(or an old questionable one) comes out, the group members get some funds together, and have a lab order a bottle directly from a random retailer and test it out to see if it matches the posted COA and what exactly was the potency, etc.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Travis]

I know that there is a lab that will test actual gear for quality. Not sure about supps though.

Also, fwiw the lab that tests samples of gear people send them just got raided and all their records were takin. Its a shame as they were really only there to help weed out bad and even dangerous gear.

 

[TheLittleGuy]

sounds ineresting but cost would be the major factor and everyone agreeing on the testing method and lab chosen

 

[RoadBlocK]

I know that there is a lab that will test actual gear for quality. Not sure about supps though.

Also, fwiw the lab that tests samples of gear people send them just got raided and all their records were takin. Its a shame as they were really only there to help weed out bad and even dangerous gear.

It wasnt rtp that was raided was it?

And to address cost, I think its only a few hundred dollars per sample test, divide that up in a group of people, its pocket change, compared to spending 50-60 bucks on some of these "new" things that may or may not work at all, and may or may not even contain what the labels claim, thats kinda my point.

 

[EasyEJL]

its a worthwhile idea, i would consider being a part of it

 

[paulieg]

Yes, good idea. I'd donate a few greenbacks to the cause. I have a few products now that I'm curious about.

 

[Travis]

It wasnt rtp that was raided was it?

And to address cost, I think its only a few hundred dollars per sample test, divide that up in a group of people, its pocket change, compared to spending 50-60 bucks on some of these "new" things that may or may not work at all, and may or may not even contain what the labels claim, thats kinda my point.

Nope, different lab. But I wouldnt be surprised if this happened to others. Seems like the lab I know is definitely putting up a fight with this in terms of communication and trying to protect their clients.

 

[RoadBlocK]

Just an update, I have contacted a well know lab, and I am awaiting the pricing and procedure information. I will hopefully have an outline of whats involved by the end of the week.

What products are you guys interested in getting tested??

And I wonder if there could be any legal problems, if for instance we test product a, and the lab comes back and says it doesnt contain what the label claims. I would imagine the manufacturer would be displeased, but legally what could they do.

Especially since the product will be ordered from a third party retailer and sent directly to the lab, so we will have no hands on contact with said item, and there will be a clear chain of custody from retailer to lab tester.

 

[EasyEJL]

it more becomes a question of how we relay the findings, and who we relay them to as far as what a company would do or be able to do.

 

[RoadBlocK]

it more becomes a question of how we relay the findings, and who we relay them to as far as what a company would do or be able to do.

I clearly see what you are saying. As consumers we have the right to know what we are taking, and ultimately we should have the right to share information should something be fishy. I would think that if a company was legit, and an independent test showed their product was underdosed or mislabled, that company would be all over the situation, tracking and checking their own quality control issues, rather than being upset at a consumer for finding out that something was wrong. The company could be 100% legit, but paying good money to a less than honest capper or bottler, or worse yet a less than honest bulk source producer. I can only see positives, for everyone involved, we as the consumer get assurances that we are getting what we are paying for, and for the companys whose products get tested, they are assured third party verification of random samples of their final production process.

 

[EasyEJL]

its partially a question tho if we release the info here on AM for instance vs first informing them and letting them do whatever damage control.

 

[RoadBlocK]

Ok, I think I understand, but we may be putting the cart before the horse here at the moment. Right now we have no idea what costs are invovled, and if anyone will actually fork over the green for testing, and if the tests are good, then ofcourse the company wont care if we post it, but it will still give peace of mind knowing you are getting what you paid for.

It would only be in the event that something showed up as bunk that we would probably have to worry about things. In that circumstance, I guess sending the results and a letter to the company would be the first step. I just personally feel that we need to start monitoring our own industry, too much money is being spent, and too many companys are popping up with claims of product with no one even ready to challenge the claims, or at the very least, verify the claims are true.

If theres any lawyers out there, or anyone one with any thoughts on the legality of posting an independent product test, please chime in. I have no idea if the powers that be here at am.com would have any problem with this either. I cant see why they would, its not sourcing, its not buying, its simply sharing of information to benefit part of the interested community.

 

[warnerve]

this is a great idea. it was SRCS that was raided, I do not believe they are doing business anymore. It's pretty expensive IIRC, I thought I heard ~$100 a test. If you do it, I would recommend that no one who is a "rep" for any company have too much of a hand in it, as that could cause problems.

and although this is a good idea and I am definitely behind it, keep in mind what happened with havoc/epistane- it can be hard to get a definitive answer with a lot of this stuff

 

[whitedevil74]

Just an update, I have contacted a well know lab, and I am awaiting the pricing and procedure information. I will hopefully have an outline of whats involved by the end of the week.

What products are you guys interested in getting tested??

And I wonder if there could be any legal problems, if for instance we test product a, and the lab comes back and says it doesnt contain what the label claims. I would imagine the manufacturer would be displeased, but legally what could they do.

Especially since the product will be ordered from a third party retailer and sent directly to the lab, so we will have no hands on contact with said item, and there will be a clear chain of custody from retailer to lab tester.

A company can always sue you, but that does not mean that they will win or that the case will not be thrown out on various pretrial motions (i.e. summary judgement) If the lab is reliable and the testing methods are sound I do not think you would have anything to worry about. There is a group called I believe Consumer Labs that does acts like consumer report for supplements but they mostly focus on health and life extenstion types of products. Now lets say you have a test performed and you get sued what happens. Well if you believe in the test you (1) have a complete defense to the defamation claim; (2) Can file a counter suit for mislabled, misbranded products; (3) End up actually walking away with a pretty good chunck of money.

I say go for it.

 

[RoadBlocK]

Thanks for the interest in this guys, I have not given up, Im just waiting for the necessary details from the lab to come through. I will keep this posted as I get info.

 

[pistonpump]

wow i didnt know this was what this thread was about, title was kinda misleading imo. anyway, im definately all for this. Problem is its expensive like in the hundreds to test ONE compound, with these blends it would be a fortune. I wish we had Patrick Arnold here to maybe take a vote and the winning supplement would get tested by him....each week. That would be cool if someone with the skills and resources to do this on their own would be so kind...

 

[neoborn]

I love this idea, would like to pitch in also as an individual and not as a rep.

I would definitely recommend a third party lab that has no affiliation to PA, I mean you guys mention saying "no reps should be allowed to be a part of this" but then you're going to give this 'duty' to Ergopharm? I am all for unbiased, un bb'afied results for products. Chain of custody and all of that.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[RoadBlocK]

No neo, youve got it all wrong, You are very welcome to help and your support would be appreciated, and any reps or hell any company that wants to help fund testing would be welcome also. Until someone trys to steal this, its my idea, its my game and this will be totally independent, like all we do is pay the lab(not a person PA) fee, then the lab buys product X from a random retailer of their choice, tests it and gives us the results. Im still waiting on info Ive requested and will send out another round of emails, but when I get things in the works I will need the support of those who have volunteered. This isnt something that will happen overnight, but I will keep this thread posted with as much info as I get. Thats all for now, happyTday.

 

[neoborn]

This interests me personally not as a rep yes. I don't mind chipping in for the good of the community. This could also become something bigger, PA was alluding to an organizational body like this for supplements over at bb.com.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[RoadBlocK]

Ok, heres what I have so far:

Basic test/coa $300 for the first ingredient, +$50 for each additional ingredient, +$50 for product sample($$+/- remember the lab will order it from whomever they choose, unless we specify a retailer, which I feel we could request np)

So to be safe, I would say for the compound to be tested, we would need $400 bucks(just to safe, in case theres more than one ingredient, we would want to know what it was)

It may seem a little pricey at first, but if we were to divide it up amongst a decent size group of people it would actually only be a few dollars for each product we wanted to test. I look at it like this, its being sure you are getting what you are paying for, how much is this worth to you?

Now theres still the matter of legally posting the results, again, if the compound tests good, no company will have a problem, but if the compound tests bunk, then we might have a problem. I know right now theres a question about a product thats been popping up, might be the perfect opportunity to see if we can get this thing to work, and see whos on board.