testosterone levels after steroids

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    testosterone levels after steroids


    if you cycle on and off steroids for ten years, and I'm 22 right now, by the time I am thirty-two, how long would it take for my testosterone levels to be as high as they were if I never took steroids in the first place

    6 weeks after proper PCT, 6 months, a year or more, or will they still be in the range of normal, although they wouldn't be as high

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkPerry View Post
    if you cycle on and off steroids for ten years, and I'm 22 right now, by the time I am thirty-two, how long would it take for my testosterone levels to be as high as they were if I never took steroids in the first place

    6 weeks after proper post cycle therapy, 6 months, a year or more, or will they still be in the range of normal, although they wouldn't be as high
    That is very unknowable. Next question?
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    its called post cycle therapy my friend
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    3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years...who knows, according to the studies I have seen. It varies so much, there is no set time, as we are all different.

    Some small (mg) cycles damaged certain guys worse and some crazy cycles seemed to have mild repercussions on others. The only way to know is to get it all checked before and then after.

    My advice: Use HCG (and of course, a proper post cycle therapy) and the chances of becoming primary hypogonadal become much smaller, and recovery will be sooner.
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    They will never be as high.

    First off, a 32 year old isnt going to produce what a 22 year old will.

    Also, even 1 cycle of steroids will slightly inhibit you natural hormone production for a long time, perhaps more than a year. If you cycle for a decade you can expect to either have somewhat lower testosterone levels ( 30-50% ) permanently, or need HRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post

    Also, even 1 cycle of steroids will slightly inhibit you natural hormone production for a long time, perhaps more than a year. If you cycle for a decade you can expect to either have somewhat lower testosterone levels ( 30-50% ) permanently, or need HRT.

    Can you substantiate that claim or is that just your opinion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post
    Can you substantiate that claim or is that just your opinion?
    Looks like we might need to learn some people about the term "experimental control".
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
    Also, even 1 cycle of steroids will slightly inhibit you natural hormone production for a long time, perhaps more than a year. If you cycle for a decade you can expect to either have somewhat lower testosterone levels ( 30-50% ) permanently, or need HRT.
    Any evidence? I seriously doubt this is the case for most people on "typical" cycles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage View Post
    Any evidence? I seriously doubt this is the case for most people on "typical" cycles.
    Some stuff I came across in PubMed a while back - I will look it up sometime today.

    As far as the wimpy oral only cycles people do on here ( me included ) I mostly agree it shouldent be significant, but if you are running a gram of gear for 16-20 weeks at a time on/off for a decade, well forget about it ; you will need HRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
    Some stuff I came across in PubMed a while back - I will look it up sometime today.

    As far as the wimpy oral only cycles people do on here ( me included ) I mostly agree it shouldent be significant, but if you are running a gram of gear for 16-20 weeks at a time on/off for a decade, well forget about it ; you will need HRT.
    The thing with pubmed is that there are only case studies on treating patients suffering from undesireable long-term effects of anabolic steroid use. I remember seeing a case study of complete reversal of hypogonadism using HCG in one patient. Not enough evidence to make blanket statements.

    Bottom line is, from a strict scientific perspective, there is not sufficient evidence in the literature to convincingly substantiate your claim.
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    Some of those wimpy orals will shut you down completely
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX View Post
    Bottom line is, from a strict scientific perspective, there is not sufficient evidence in the literature to convincingly substantiate your claim.
    Ok I will give you that - but dont be shocked if you need HRT after a decade of AAS use no matter how well your PCT and off time is done.

    Its definitely a possible outcome.
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    lets not forget that there ARE things we can do to boost our testosterone and prevent hypogonadism as best we can while cycling so that in the end we are happy with relatively normal test levels. Now FrankJ's comments about the 16-20 week cycles of more than a gram of gear doesnt seem to convince me. Shutdown is shutdown. The only thing that can make recovery harder is the longer one is shutdown. so this i give credibility, but as far as a comparison. For up to a twelve week cycle using a modest amount of gear 500mg+\wk of gear vs. a 4 week oral cycle that is supposedly more modest, there really isnt a difference. once shutdown occurs its there and not going away until somethign in the body changes. That being said, its up to the individual to know his\her body, do before and after bloodwork, see where the problems are, and make changes. (probably using ancillary drugs\supplements)..my comments on this thread might be interesting to some of you regarding a similar topic:
    No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
    Ok I will give you that - but dont be shocked if you need HRT after a decade of anabolic steroids use no matter how well your post cycle therapy and off time is done.

    Its definitely a possible outcome.
    A lot of men would qualify for HRT at age 35+ even without a history of steroid use. That's just natural physiology. So if you use steroids from age 25-35, you're likely at the same point that you'd be if you didn't. Low testosterone levels either way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX View Post
    A lot of men would qualify for HRT at age 35+ even without a history of steroid use. That's just natural physiology. So if you use steroids from age 25-35, you're likely at the same point that you'd be if you didn't. Low testosterone levels either way.
    agreed
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    I was reading up somewhere about this old guy who was taking heavy gear since he was 19 until mid 40's. When he got off his lvls were so low that he just shoots test prop ALL the time. He has been for around 6 years or something.

    I also am curious if the pro's (ie. coleman, cutler etc) even come off it at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelEntity View Post
    I was reading up somewhere about this old guy who was taking heavy gear since he was 19 until mid 40's. When he got off his lvls were so low that he just shoots test prop ALL the time. He has been for around 6 years or something.

    I also am curious if the pro's (ie. coleman, cutler etc) even come off it at all.
    I would assume the pros, at least the ones competing hardcore for the olympia title, are using their own version of a constant HRT at very high doses. This is despite each of their various claims about not using retarted amounts of drugs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I would assume the pros, at least the ones competing hardcore for the olympia title, are using their own version of a constant HRT at very high doses. This is despite each of their various claims about not using retarted amounts of drugs.
    Yeah there is no way I could see any of those guys ever having even close to normal test lvls when they are done with bodybuilding.
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    Yeah there is no way I could see any of those guys ever having even close to normal test lvls when they are done with bodybuilding.
    They usually lose a LOT of size when they are done with competitive bodybuilding. I remember reading Jay Cutler say that when he's done, he only wants to be a lean 220 or so.

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    leaned out at 220 is still very good. What is he posing at these days? around 250 isn't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelEntity View Post
    leaned out at 220 is still very good. What is he posing at these days? around 250 isn't it?
    i think it was in the 260-265 range. I read Jay's book. he talks about using drugs but he doesnt seem to put a big emphasis on them. Also I spoke with him in person. And ive seen him speek at an expo talking about drug use in bodybuilding. He says things along the line of "people see the flex and MD magazines and compare physiques by saying "oh the bigger more ripped guy (jay cutler) must just load up on more and more drugs to get better." and he seemed honest in saying that this isnt really true.

    I dont necessarily believe that they dont use alot of drugs, but some people have better genetics than others, and maybe he has gotten where he is by cycling responsibly, or maybe he is just a bigger fan of slin and GH which is what it looked like he had in his fridge in some photos online taken from one of his movies. Who knows. He likes to say that when he retires, he'd like to have a kid and be a good father. He dosnt sound like a dumb guy, but if hes using the amount of drugs that it looks like or similar looking competitors do then i think hes going to have a hard time holding on to his musce mass when he retires the drug use, and probably going to have a hard time having a kid.
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    then again im sure he could have probably built up to 220 relatively lean pounds without the drugs anyway to so maintain that mass afterwards with normal test levels seems credible, but i think that the chances of normal test levels after years of steroid and drug use (to whatever extent) will be a limiting facter without a doubt
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    Yeah man all pro bb's say they use drugs but not in excess... well that's bull****. At the rate these guys are growing I don't believe they are not constantly pushing the doses. It wouldn't phase me if they are shooting 2 grams of test a week at their peak level. I do agree they all have amazing genetics as a base to work with. I wish I could find the source but I remember reading an interview with Branch Warren and he is a straight forward guy, no bull**** he tells it like it is and he said something like all IFBB pros at the Mr. O level are taking gear, most to an extreme measure. Not that that's news but it's nice to hear someone have the balls to say it.
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    I think it would be best if all of the pro's would just be straight foreward with it. I mean if people like us are on this board trying to figure it all the hell out then why must it be such a mystery. Like Mr Cutler said himself, "its part of our game" (the drug use) then why cant we be filled in on the game. It would take the negative attention away from drug misuse and make people aware of how much of an art and a sport bodybuilding can be, even with the damn drugs included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I think it would be best if all of the pro's would just be straight foreward with it. I mean if people like us are on this board trying to figure it all the hell out then why must it be such a mystery. Like Mr Cutler said himself, "its part of our game" (the drug use) then why cant we be filled in on the game. It would take the negative attention away from drug misuse and make people aware of how much of an art and a sport bodybuilding can be, even with the damn drugs included.
    I think the DEA could use it as evidence to secure warrants to raid pro bodybuilders' homes. Find controlled substances then grant them immunity if they give up names of the top dogs in the steroid distribution community. That's what I would do if I were DEA.

    There's a college dude in California who posted photos of himself shooting guns on his myspace page. This was right after the VT shootings. His classmates alerted authorities and a search warrant was granted based on public information on a myspace page. His house was raided and he was arrested on suspicion of owning illegal guns. Turns out most of the charges have been dropped already as the guns turned out to be legal. Other charges are still being negotiated between the DA and the dude's attorneys. Those might get dropped too. Still is costing the guy tens of thousands in legal fees and unmeasureable emotional stress.

    Moral of the story: due to public hysteria over various issues, it's best to stay off the radar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX View Post
    I think the DEA could use it as evidence to secure warrants to raid pro bodybuilders' homes. Find controlled substances then grant them immunity if they give up names of the top dogs in the steroid distribution community. That's what I would do if I were DEA.

    There's a college dude in California who posted photos of himself shooting guns on his myspace page. This was right after the VT shootings. His classmates alerted authorities and a search warrant was granted based on public information on a myspace page. His house was raided and he was arrested on suspicion of owning illegal guns. Turns out most of the charges have been dropped already as the guns turned out to be legal. Other charges are still being negotiated between the DA and the dude's attorneys. Those might get dropped too. Still is costing the guy tens of thousands in legal fees and unmeasureable emotional stress.

    Moral of the story: due to public hysteria over various issues, it's best to stay off the radar.
    Good point. Additionally so many uneducated users would take a look at say Cutler's cycle and do it exactly thinking they could acheive his results. There would be a ton highschoolers with no balls out their.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelEntity View Post
    Good point. Additionally so many uneducated users would take a look at say Cutler's cycle and do it exactly thinking they could acheive his results. There would be a ton highschoolers with no balls out their.
    these are all very legit points...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelEntity View Post
    I was reading up somewhere about this old guy who was taking heavy gear since he was 19 until mid 40's. When he got off his lvls were so low that he just shoots test prop ALL the time. He has been for around 6 years or something.
    Well if he was cycling almost nonstop for 20 years, his testes would probably be permanently atrophied, especially if he wasn't using HCG. But that happens after years of use, not after a 4-12 week cycle.
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    its been about a year for me since i have stopped and my levels still arent back.
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    they never come back to what they were, you can get them "normal" again, but if u had really hight test levels like i did then do any cycle, oral or not, they will not be the same again, thats life... do u want to tell people you have high test levels or that you bench 400lbs?? haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate2827 View Post
    its been about a year for me since i have stopped and my levels still arent back.
    What's your history of use, if you don't mind me asking? Did you run an intelligent PCT?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer View Post
    they never come back to what they were, you can get them "normal" again, but if u had really hight test levels like i did then do any cycle, oral or not, they will not be the same again, thats life... do u want to tell people you have high test levels or that you bench 400lbs?? haha
    This is my line of thinking also.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX View Post
    What's your history of use, if you don't mind me asking? Did you run an intelligent post cycle therapy?
    I am interested as well, not to be nosy. But whether or not they naturally return to normal isnt quite the issue, im sure if one were to cycle nonstop or to USE nonstop for years, then it would take quite a long time if ever for natural test production to be in the normal acceptable range. There are drug and non drug ways of boosting natty test levels that would speed up the process of this recovery. IT is all dependant upon the individual and what factors are keeping them shutdown. But like others pointed out, levels decline after 30+ years of age anyway, so cycling or nonstop use after this point would just be like extreme HRT. if many are candidates for prescription HRT after 35 anyway then its not really a big worry for most guys. Like fritzer said would you rather say you have high natty test or that you can bench 400?

    a perspective: a 12 week cycle would usually require a 6 week PCT to aid in hormonal equilibrium + restoration, but somone cycling on and off or using gear straight for 12 YEARS, well just compare and think how long it would take with or without PCT to restore levels. Like people say, your body will want to upregulate natural test levels when you come off steroids, but time is the key, and by this time the average user is 35+ and their levels would be lower anyway whether they cycled or not.

    Besides the natural degenerative process by which hormones deplete as one ages, there is no other reason that I see (biologically speeking) that one cannot restore their test to where it was or higher. its just that when the average long term steroid user is done cycling, they would have already been in that depleted aged state anyway. So despite popular belief, their levels are probably "normal" or at least just shy of it if they have been using steroids responsibly and understand how thier endocrine system functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    Like people say, your body will want to upregulate natural test levels when you come off steroids, but time is the key, and by this time the average user is 35+ and their levels would be lower anyway whether they cycled or not.
    I'd like to hear more about this.. is it just the upregulation of GnRH or is it at the leydig cells as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by smc252 View Post
    I'd like to hear more about this.. is it just the upregulation of GnRH or is it at the leydig cells as well?
    I would be interested to know as well. Unfortunately im not sure. If anyone has further knowledge it would be great to hear. This stuff really gets my interest. anyway I just was speaking in general, that the endocrine system, like all other systems in the body will try to equalize on thier own, but there are always limiting factors.

    **Im pretty sure that IGF-1 if administered systematically such as oratropin, can be great for PCT becuase it aids in the recovery and function on leydig cells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate2827 View Post
    its been about a year for me since i have stopped and my levels still arent back.
    You ran pct I assume? And how long were you on them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smc252 View Post
    I'd like to hear more about this.. is it just the upregulation of GnRH or is it at the leydig cells as well?
    I ran by some article abstracts a while back... I'll post if I can find them. Bottom line is there are decreases in HPTA components in older men. But it all boils down to the leydig cells becoming less responsive to LH as we get older. It would be nice if simple treatment with LH restores natural Test production... but biology doesn't seem to work that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkPerry View Post
    if you cycle on and off steroids for ten years, and I'm 22 right now, by the time I am thirty-two, how long would it take for my testosterone levels to be as high as they were if I never took steroids in the first place

    6 weeks after proper post cycle therapy, 6 months, a year or more, or will they still be in the range of normal, although they wouldn't be as high
    With proper cycling there is no reason to think that your levels would go outside of the "normal" (whatever that means) range of testosterone for someone ten years older than you are now.

    One thing I can pretty much guarantee is that at 32 your natural test levels will not be as high as they were at 22, with or without previous steroid use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkPerry View Post
    if you cycle on and off steroids for ten years, and I'm 22 right now, by the time I am thirty-two, how long would it take for my testosterone levels to be as high as they were if I never took steroids in the first place

    6 weeks after proper post cycle therapy, 6 months, a year or more, or will they still be in the range of normal, although they wouldn't be as high
    So you started using steroids at 12 years old??.
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