Liver Toxicity (Paging Dr D, Bobo and all other smarty pants)

[awmcdon]

We all know that methylated steroids are hard on the liver. But all hormones must be metabolized by the liver via either phase II sulfation or phase II glucuronidation.

Suppose bodybuilder X is taking 400mg of a unmethylated prohormone(for instance 3-AD) and 400mg of trione a day (Which has a typical steroid ring structure).

That is 800mg of steroid molecules the liver has to metabolize EVERY DAY or 5600mg a week.

Now suppose bodybuilder Y is taking 300mg of tren a week, 40mg of Dianabol a day and rebound reloaded.

We now have only 580mg of steroids to metabolize a week, almost 1/10th.

So I hope everyone can now see what I'm getting at. Considering the doses that some of these prosteroids and prohormones must be taken at, what is the long term potential for liver problems. Would it equal that of methylated hormones.

I believe this is an important issue that needs to be discussed. I haven't seen much talk on the site about the possibilty of liver toxicity with these high dose hormones. Most people just assume because its not a methyl its OK. That may be the case. I don't know.

So please anyone with any information about this topic please share.

 

[Dr_C2]

We all know that methylated steroids are hard on the liver. But all hormones must be metabolized by the liver via either phase II sulfation or phase II glucuronidation.

Suppose bodybuilder X is taking 400mg of a unmethylated prohormone(for instance 3-AD) and 400mg of trione a day (Which has a typical steroid ring structure).

That is 800mg of steroid molecules the liver has to metabolize EVERY DAY or 5600mg a week.

Now suppose bodybuilder Y is taking 300mg of tren a week, 40mg of Dianabol a day and rebound reloaded.

We now have only 580mg of steroids to metabolize a week, almost 1/10th.

So I hope everyone can now see what I'm getting at. Considering the doses that some of these prosteroids and prohormones must be taken at, what is the long term potential for liver problems. Would it equal that of methylated hormones.

I believe this is an important issue that needs to be discussed. I haven't seen much talk on the site about the possibilty of liver toxicity with these high dose hormones. Most people just assume because its not a methyl its OK. That may be the case. I don't know.

So please anyone with any information about this topic please share.

I think there is another variable that must be added to your equation - duration.

IMO, there are very few arguments that can be made to justify running a 17aa PH/anabolic steroids for more than 4 weeks. Right off hand, I can't think of a single one

So your comparison is a valid point but I would add that one should consider the effects of running a 16 week cycle of injectables vs. a 4 week cycle of 17aa PH/AAS.

Obviously the duration of the cycle is important. Either way, expect the liver enzymes to elevate. Now just b/c there is an elevation in enzymes is not indicative of damage.


Let me write that again...just b/c there is an elevation in enzymes is not indicative of damage.

It demonstrates that the liver is doing its job.

If, after an ample amount of time, the elevated levels have not returned to baseline, then there may indeed be sustained damage.

 

[awmcdon]

Yes you have brought up a very good point, something that I overlooked..........duration.

Many of these high dose unmethylated prosteroids/prohormones are being taken for longer than four weeks Everyone assumes because they are unmethylated that the potential for liver stress is minimal.

But how much stress is being placed on the liver with 200mg of prostanozol a day every day for six weeks? That is my question.
We all know that generally speaking methylated steroids are much harder on the liver than injectables.
But how do these new high dose unmethylated orals compare?

 

[T-Bone]

Everything you ingest puts stress on the liver.

 

[TeamSavage]

It completely depends on the specific metabolism of the compound in question. With different compounds having such variable toxicities, the difference in dosage really doesn't tell us much. Even among 17aa compounds, there's tremendous differences. 5mg M1T is probably more liver toxic than 30mg Superdrol or 50-100mg Halodrol.

The fact is that, in general, unmethylated compounds are far less liver toxic than methylated compounds, so it's reasonable to guess that new unmethylated compounds will have similarly low toxicity. But until we actually see bloodwork, that's all it is: a reasonable guess.

 

[awmcdon]

It completely depends on the specific metabolism of the compound in question. With different compounds having such variable toxicities, the difference in dosage really doesn't tell us much. Even among 17aa compounds, there's tremendous differences. 5mg M1T is probably more liver toxic than 30mg Superdrol or 50-100mg Halodrol.

The fact is that, in general, unmethylated compounds are far less liver toxic than methylated compounds, so it's reasonable to guess that new unmethylated compounds will have similarly low toxicity. But until we actually see bloodwork, that's all it is: a reasonable guess.

I understand this but my concern is the extremely high doses of some of the prohormones/prosteroids.
Is there a point where a certain dose of an oral unmethylated steroid puts the same stress on the liver as say 50mg of anadrol. In my opinion the answer would be yes. But how much. I know this is all speculative, but it needs to be addressed, especially since some of these new hormones have people taking up to 600mg a day.

ANother question I have: If liver enzmyes aren't elvated is that a difinite indicator that the liver isn't stressed or there isn't the potential for liver problems.

I ran across an article on the long term use of acetaminophen at the stated label doseage.
Liver enzmes initially elavated and then lowered and stabilized.
So a liver panel would not have been a good indicator of potential problems in this instance.

 

[TeamSavage]

I understand this but my concern is the extremely high doses of some of the prohormones/prosteroids.
Is there a point where a certain dose of an oral unmethylated steroid puts the same stress on the liver as say 50mg of anadrol. In my opinion the answer would be yes. But how much. I know this is all speculative, but it needs to be addressed, especially since some of these new hormones have people taking up to 600mg a day.

It completely depends on the compound in question. There are probably some prohormones/prosteroids that do not stress the liver at all appreciably, at any dose. As I'm sure there are others that at very high doses do stress the liver more than a normal dose of known 17aa hepatoxins such as anadrol. You are assuming that all anabolic substances cause similar liver toxicity that differs only in quantitative degree. In fact, the effects on the liver are qualitatively different for various substances, so don't get so hung up on the amounts. The liver is a metabolizing machine - that's what it doe - so it does not necessarily follow that metabolizing 10g of anabolic-substance-A will cause more liver stress than metabolizing 100mg of anabolic-substance-B. It's the specific way in which they are metabolized that matters. (E.g. 2g/day of oral 4-androdiol is probably less hepatoxic than just 5mg of M1T, even though it's 400x the dose.) The only way to address this question is to look at bloodwork of each compound as it becomes available.

 

[Travis]

It completely depends on the compound in question. There are probably some prohormones/prosteroids that do not stress the liver at all appreciably, at any dose. As I'm sure there are others that at very high doses do stress the liver more than a normal dose of known 17aa hepatoxins such as anadrol. You are assuming that all anabolic substances cause similar liver toxicity that differs only in quantitative degree. In fact, the effects on the liver are qualitatively different for various substances, so don't get so hung up on the amounts. The liver is a metabolizing machine - that's what it doe - so it does not necessarily follow that metabolizing 10g of anabolic-substance-A will cause more liver stress than metabolizing 100mg of anabolic-substance-B. It's the specific way in which they are metabolized that matters. (E.g. 2g/day of oral 4-androdiol is probably less hepatoxic than just 5mg of M1T, even though it's 400x the dose.) The only way to address this question is to look at bloodwork of each compound as it becomes available.

Agreed, bloodwork is key imo. TS knows what he is talkin about too if you look back on some threads he started back in 2005 I think. Here is one (doesnt really get into nonmethyl vs methyl) but a good discussion nonetheless:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/54119-stacking-methylated-orals.html