epistane pulse cycle no PCT

lambo

New member
I am wanting to pulse Epi or Havoc as to cut down on the sides and not having to post cycle therapy with a SERM. how does this look for strength and mass gains...
wk 1 10-20-30
wk 2 40-40-40
wk 3 no epi take 2 TZ3 daily
wk 4 10-20-30
wk 5 40-40-40
wk 6 2 TZ3 daily

would i need any supprt supps besides multi and maybe some taurine?
TZ3 has some 6-0x0 ZMA and trib ...
after week 6 i would start back on creatine and prolly TZ3 for another week....
 
you cannot run any steroid without doing a post cycle therapy with a SERM.

period

youre going to **** yourself up
 
jomi822 said:
you cannot run any steroid without doing a post cycle therapy with a SERM.

period

youre going to **** yourself up
Click to expand...

Isn't the whole reason for a pulse cycle is to minimize side effects esp shutdown? So a tradition PCT is not a must.

Even with my Pulse Dr.D said HDx2/Retain2/Liver Proctection aren't 100% needed on off days.

Flame away.
 
do you know anyone else, on the entire internet, who supports this pulse method without pct, besides DR. d?

i dont need to flame. enough people are going to **** themselves up that it will eventually be self evident how stupid the whole idea is.

steroids require post cycle therapy.

minimize supression...so you are still supressed, no? im glad youre ok with that
 
jomi822 said:
do you know anyone else, on the entire internet, who supports this pulse method without post cycle therapy, besides DR. d?

i dont need to flame. enough people are going to **** themselves up that it will eventually be self evident how stupid the whole idea is.

steroids require post cycle therapy.

minimize supression...so you are still supressed, no? im glad youre ok with that
Click to expand...

I have never been supressed but of course the PH's I used usually don't cause that. I guess I will just have to find out for myself.

As for the entire internet I don't know I only go to a couple of boards so I can't answer that question.
 
UNCfan1 said:
I have never been supressed but of course the PH's I used usually don't cause that. I guess I will just have to find out for myself. .
Click to expand...

UNC you might want to clarify this statement. We are buds, but I am not following you here. Might have been a typo??
 
jomi822 said:
do you know anyone else, on the entire internet, who supports this pulse method without post cycle therapy, besides DR. d?

i dont need to flame. enough people are going to **** themselves up that it will eventually be self evident how stupid the whole idea is.

steroids require post cycle therapy.

minimize supression...so you are still supressed, no? im glad youre ok with that
Click to expand...

The pulse method is awsome! I used the pulse method last summer. Leaned out, Put on 15 pounds of solid muscle, bench went up 100lbs, was barely suppressed if at all after 3 months, and continued to gain after cycle. I am pulsing now, with very good results as well, very little suppression if at all. And before you brush all of this off as Newb gains, I have been lifting seriousely for 6 years. And I wieght in at 255lbs at about 11% bf. The pusle method is the real deal, its just not as dramatic as regular cycling. If you like yoyo'ing all over the place then the pulse method is not for you. It offers slow, dry, steady gains, and you continue to gain after your done. A very week post cycle therapy can be implemented, but is not needed. The only thing I am going to be using for PCT this time will be ZMA, last time I only used ATD it turned out great.
 
haroldjg said:
The pulse method is awsome! I used the pulse method last summer. Leaned out, Put on 15 pounds of solid muscle, bench went up 100lbs, was barely suppressed if at all after 3 months, and continued to gain after cycle. I am pulsing now, with very good results as well, very little suppression if at all. And before you brush all of this off as Newb gains, I have been lifting seriousely for 6 years. And I wieght in at 255lbs at about 11% bf. The pusle method is the real deal, its just not as dramatic as regular cycling. If you like yoyo'ing all over the place then the pulse method is not for you. It offers slow, dry, steady gains, and you continue to gain after your done. A very week post cycle therapy can be implemented, but is not needed. The only thing I am going to be using for post cycle therapy this time will be ZMA, last time I only used ATD it turned out great.
Click to expand...

cool. can i see your blood tests?
 
bLacKjAck. said:
UNC you might want to clarify this statement. We are buds, but I am not following you here. Might have been a typo??
Click to expand...

Sorry let me clarify that statement. The 2 PH's that I used Halodrol/Hemadrol/Propadrol don't cause u to shutdown or in my case no supression. Now I am not saying this holds true for everyone but I don't know of anyone that has had those problems with those.

That is one of the reasons I am pulsing SD/TRN/Ergo to see if it works like Dr.D says it does.
 
UNCfan1 said:
Sorry let me clarify that statement. The 2 PH's that I used Halodrol/Hemadrol/Propadrol don't cause u to shutdown or in my case no supression. Now I am not saying this holds true for everyone but I don't know of anyone that has had those problems with those.

That is one of the reasons I am pulsing superdrol/TRN/Ergo to see if it works like Dr.D says it does.
Click to expand...

Gotcha.

Saying holds true ''Everyone reacts diff...." --- This seems to always be the case.
 
im gonna pulse epistane soon, everyone whos has pulsed epistane has had good results. hell i just ran it 3 week straight at 40mg and i never lost libido and my balls never changed, not to say it didnt shut me down at all but its nothing close to superdrol or ergomax.
 
UNCfan1 said:
Sorry let me clarify that statement. The 2 PH's that I used Halodrol/Hemadrol/Propadrol don't cause u to shutdown or in my case no supression. Now I am not saying this holds true for everyone but I don't know of anyone that has had those problems with those.

That is one of the reasons I am pulsing superdrol/TRN/Ergo to see if it works like Dr.D says it does.
Click to expand...
Supression and shutdown are two different things. Supression means your test levels are lowered. Shutdown means test production is stopped. If you truely experience zero supression while on then you are unique. Heck, what is the point of even pulsing then?
 
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natiels said:
Supression and shutdown are two different things. Supression means your test levels are lowered. Shutdown means test production is stopped. If you truely experience zero supression while then you are unique. Heck, what is the point of even pulsing then?
Click to expand...

After my cycle test levels were normal. I didn't take bloodwork while on so yes I could have been supressed to some point.

I am pulsing compounds that can shut u down. I would not pulse things like halodrol or propadrol. I would not pulse Epi and PH's that are close to it.
 
Dude natiels my bad on the wording I didn't mean to make it out that my test levels weren't supressed to some point. I was talking mainly about shutdown. Sorry its been a long day.
 
i have seen a bunch of people trying out the pulse method.

and i have yet to see ONE blood test confirming that it is
a. healthier
b. safer
 
jomi822 said:
i have seen a bunch of people trying out the pulse method.

and i have yet to see ONE blood test confirming that it is
a. healthier
b. safer
Click to expand...

It's ok I'll be your first. Getting bloodwork done soon and then pulsing! Mark my words :) and then you can eat yours ( or vice versa :) )
 
jomi822 said:
cool. can i see your blood tests?
Click to expand...

Yah, like most people I didnt run any blood work. I am basing my conclusions off of the observations that:
1) very little, if any, testicular shrinkage during cycle or after cycle
2) continued to gain strength as well as muscle mass post cycle
3) very little libido loss, if any, during cycle or post cycle. In fact I would say that libido was raised the entire time I was pulsing.

I would say that given these observations combined with the horribly weak post cycle therapy that was run that supression was very, very, mild. In my opinion the main time that your natural test is suppressed is on the days that your pulsing(duh), during the off days the administered hormones have already cleared the body and should not be suppressing your natural production. Combine this with the 2-day lay-off once a week and I believe that we have a winner. Very little risk of any testicular atrophy, as your body would still need to keep the boys up and running on the off days.

Another observation is that my sperm count did not appear to drop. Very milky, at times almost completely white.lol. I dont have bloodwork to back up my claims, but for me the observations do enough to convince me. I can see how you would be skeptical though.
 
jomi822 said:
no post cycle therapy? whatsoever?
Click to expand...

No SERM.

I will be doing the following:

1. Bloodwork - Full Panel Lipid / Test / pretty much everything.

2. Cycle will be as follows

Wk 1: 10 - 20 - 30
Wk 2: 30 - 30 - 30
Wk 3: 40 - 40 - 40

3. Continue to Wk:7 at 40mg and then ramp down.

4. MassFX / HDX2 / on off days and then finish off any product once EPI done.
 
neoborn said:
No SERM.

I will be doing the following:

1. Bloodwork - Full Panel Lipid / Test / pretty much everything.

2. Cycle will be as follows

Wk 1: 10 - 20 - 30
Wk 2: 30 - 30 - 30
Wk 3: 40 - 40 - 40

3. Continue to Wk:7 at 40mg and then ramp down.

4. MassFX / HDX2 / on off days and then finish off any product once EPI done.
Click to expand...

so are are running an AI pct?
 
jomi822 said:
i have seen a bunch of people trying out the pulse method.

and i have yet to see ONE blood test confirming that it is
a. healthier
b. safer
Click to expand...

I will be pulsing and will show you bloodwork. Hopefully this will show you that it is healthier / safer?

Probably won't convince you as I have talked to your kind before :)

I think you should do it yourself and monitor it by bloodwork / dr. Then you can see for yourself!

jomi822 said:
so are are running an AI post cycle therapy?
Click to expand...

Sure if that's what you see above yes.
 
neoborn said:
I will be pulsing and will show you bloodwork. Hopefully this will show you that it is healthier / safer?

Probably won't convince you as I have talked to your kind before :)

I think you should do it yourself and monitor it by bloodwork / dr. Then you can see for yourself!



Sure if that's what you see above yes.
Click to expand...

but you are still running some semblance of post cycle therapy. if you really want to prove that "pulse" cyclingt works, dont run one at all.

btw dr. d also suggested to an individual on this board ways in which to "pulse" m1t.

m1t was proven ON THIS BOARD to be one of the most supressive substances that can feasibly be used for any type of cycle. just a day or two of doses and you are 99% shut down.

still feel comfortable taking his advice on oehter substances?
 
Dr.D has recommended alot of pulsing, have you read the pulsing thread? I haven't read where he is saying "you don't need to run a PCT" but a SERM is not needed.

Please take this up with DR.D if you're going to call them out get them in here to defend themselves. Also please post links / quotes where he states this.

Kthx.
 
neoborn said:
Dr.D has recommended alot of pulsing, have you read the pulsing thread? I haven't read where he is saying "you don't need to run a post cycle therapy" but a SERM is not needed.

Please take this up with DR.D if you're going to call them out get them in here to defend themselves. Also please post links / quotes where he states this.

Kthx.
Click to expand...

i have taken this up with dr. d in other threads. he has probably seen my posts in this thread as well.

yes i have read the pulsing thread

"In other words, you can pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks usually before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. In fact, after a 4 week pulsing cycle, PCT should not even be required in most cases! "

satisfied?
 
jomi822 said:
i have taken this up with dr. d in other threads. he has probably seen my posts in this thread as well.

yes i have read the pulsing thread

"In other words, you can pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks usually before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. In fact, after a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases! "

satisfied?
Click to expand...

So have you tried this and monitored your status of liver / lipid etc etc?

Have you talked to the people who have done this?

Has anyone done pulsing with bloodtests etc?
 
jomi822 said:
but you are still running some semblance of post cycle therapy. if you really want to prove that "pulse" cyclingt works, dont run one at all.

btw dr. d also suggested to an individual on this board ways in which to "pulse" m1t.

m1t was proven ON THIS BOARD to be one of the most supressive substances that can feasibly be used for any type of cycle. just a day or two of doses and you are 99% shut down.

still feel comfortable taking his advice on oehter substances?
Click to expand...

I was letting it slide with you dogging something I doubt you even have the right to an opinion on, unless you have actually TRIED it yourself, but don't put words in my mouth because that's where I draw the line. I can tolerate your retardedness but don't tell lies about me. If I EVER recommenced an M1T pulse I am sure I clarified it was only to avoid acute liver toxicity and not to avoid shutdown. Ain't you got nuttin better to do that get it twisted with me tough guy?
 
DR.D said:
I was letting it slide with you dogging something I doubt you even have the right to an opinion on, unless you have actually TRIED it yourself, but don't put words in my mouth because that's where I draw the line. I can tolerate your retardedness but don't tell lies about me. If I EVER recommenced an M1T pulse I am sure I clarified it was only to avoid acute liver toxicity and not to avoid shutdown. Ain't you got nuttin better to do that get it twisted with me tough guy?
Click to expand...

Agreed with D. I asked him about pulsing M1T and what he just told u is what he told me. Why bash a method u that u have never tried? If u don't believe in it thats fine but don't go around bashing it if someone is using it.
 
I just wanted to chime in since I have read up on the pulsing and have thought about it for a while. I agree with everyone in this thread, there is reason to maybe doubt if it you would not need PCT at all, but this could also be a good method to keep sides down all together. I don't think anyone should say that you don't need PCT at all on this, but than again I don't think anyone should say that you 100% have to until blood tests would show one way or another. Jomi822, I think it goes both ways, they don't have any blood work for this specific style of cycling yet, but you don't have any to prove them wrong either. Its a moot point until someone shows one way or another, until than its a novel idea that could become very useful if not only for keeping sides down and making it easier for your liver.
 
snakebyte05 said:
I just wanted to chime in since I have read up on the pulsing and have thought about it for a while. I agree with everyone in this thread, there is reason to maybe doubt if it you would not need post cycle therapy at all, but this could also be a good method to keep sides down all together. I don't think anyone should say that you don't need PCT at all on this, but than again I don't think anyone should say that you 100% have to until blood tests would show one way or another. Jomi822, I think it goes both ways, they don't have any blood work for this specific style of cycling yet, but you don't have any to prove them wrong either. Its a moot point until someone shows one way or another, until than its a novel idea that could become very useful if not only for keeping sides down and making it easier for your liver.
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Well, I can tell you this, my test levels were 750 at the age of 15. I pulsed with ZERO PCT from ages 16-19, and then didn't juice again till my mid 20's. I had my test checked again when I was 20 and again at 21 and it was 850. Now test should peg at 18-19 and started declining steadily after that, so I think it's safe to say pulsing worked for me, and then some! That's why I get bent with people just talking **** that don't have clue number one what they're even talking about. I lived it bro! What can you tell me?
 
DR.D said:
Well, I can tell you this, my test levels were 750 at the age of 15. I pulsed with ZERO post cycle therapy from ages 16-19, and then didn't juice again till my mid 20's. I had my test checked again when I was 20 and again at 21 and it was 850. Now test should peg at 18-19 and started declining steadily after that, so I think it's safe to say pulsing worked for me, and then some! That's why I get bent with people just talking **** that don't have clue number one what they're even talking about. I lived it bro! What can you tell me?
Click to expand...

I remember reading in your thread that you had tried it, but didn't know you had blood tests done back than, good to see some kind of info on this. Im hoping some people out there will get some blood tests right before and after and maybe a month after that to see if it does suppress much and if it does does it bounce back quickly.
 
snakebyte05 said:
I remember reading in your thread that you had tried it, but didn't know you had blood tests done back than, good to see some kind of info on this. Im hoping some people out there will get some blood tests right before and after and maybe a month after that to see if it does suppress much and if it does does it bounce back quickly.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think we will see more bloodwork soon, since so many people are giving it a try now.
 
UNCfan1 said:
After my cycle test levels were normal. I didn't take bloodwork while on so yes I could have been supressed to some point.

I am pulsing compounds that can shut u down. I would not pulse things like halodrol or propadrol. I would not pulse Epi and PH's that are close to it.
Click to expand...


Why would you not pulse propadrol? Or epi?
 
I think the point is that just because Dr. D says something doesn't make it so. He is quite knowledgable with lots of experience, but that doesn't make him right 100% of the time in 100% of cases. Many of his opinions are based on his personal experience, but you have to realize that how Dr. D responds to something is not necessarily how YOU or anyone else will respond. And while he certainly understands the science better than most, he is still often limited to theorizing or speculating simply because there isn't enough hard data or research on these compounds. Even if his theory (or anyone else's) is based on common sense, an understanding of the known science, and HIS own personal experience, it can still turn out to be wrong.

This is not a knock on Dr. D. He's extremely helpful and his opinions should be taken seriously. But I see a lot of people taking Dr. D's opinion as gospel and using "Dr. D says..." as an excuse for avoiding their own research and careful consideration. That, to me, is stupid.
 
TeamSavage said:
I think the point is that just because Dr. D says something doesn't make it so. He is quite knowledgable with lots of experience, but that doesn't make him right 100% of the time in 100% of cases.
Click to expand...

That equals everyone and everything you read on forums / the internet.

Good post all in all Savage.
 
I've just started my first epistane (IBE) cycle last week, together with a friend.

We're doing the pulse cycle of40mg 3x per week on w/o days (ramp put on the first three days, 10, 20, 30 mg). 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. We're combining this with USN Xedra-cut .

I am now on 40 mg (end of week 1), but strangely enough both mine and my friend's libido is completely gone! I thought it would actually increase, as it did when I did a USN 17-Testo cycle.

Anybody experienced this before???
 
I once took a 5 week pulse cycle of epi/sostenol 250(superdrol, halodrol, pheraplex blend). without no pct, no cycle support, no liver support, no side effects. Now that I look back at it stupid idea but what's done is done.
 
It's quite likely that pulsing epi doesn't require a PCT because it's already an anti-estrogen. A PCT would be simply running another non-suppressive anti-estrogen after it.

The basic theory behind PCT is high levels of estrogen suppress testosterone production. If you are using non-aromatising compounds then high estrogen shouldn't be a problem and the body should naturally recover.

A lot of people have been talking about D-bol pulses and reporting natural recovery without PCT and D-bol is an aromatising compound. If this is the case epi would compare much more favorably because it's probably less suppressive than D-bol and non-aromatising.

Additionally, low levels of estrogen increase levels of LH increasing testosterone production. Since epi is an anti-estrogen, LH may be relatively high due to the low levels of estrogen, giving a head start to recovery after the epi is withdrawn. This is purely speculation though.

However one argument for PCT is the possibility of rebound gyno because such drastically low levels of estrogen throughout the entire cycle may render the estrogen receptors super-sensitive and normal levels of estrogen may aggravate gyno. Also speculation.
 
Space said:
It's quite likely that pulsing epi doesn't require a PCT because it's already an anti-estrogen. A PCT would be simply running another non-suppressive anti-estrogen after it.
Click to expand...

But still I am getting comments from everybody to take a full PCT or have it on stand-by for emergencies. I will probably try to get some nolva or Clomid. I have read all the research about dosing the PCT, but not with pulse cycles. My initial thought is to also pulse the weeks, so 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. This was the recommended pulse cycle on the IBE website.

Do I also need to start a PCT during the off weeks? Or shall I change my cycle to continue pulsing (3x/week), but for 4 to 6 weeks straight? This was also an optional cycle, but I will need a PCT for sure than.

BTW, if I continue to cycle 'lightly', how do I recognise an emergency that requires a PCT??? Tiny testicles? No libido?
 
An emergency would be the onset of gynecomastia, in which case you would hit it with 40 mg of Nolvadex ED.

It's a wise idea to have nolvadex handy in case you experience problems when running any cycle.

Personally I would be temped to run an epi pulse with no PCT because aside from rebound gyno which is pretty unlikely, the worst that could happen is you lose more of your gains than you were expecting and there is a pretty solid argument that this won't happen.

Dr D is the most knowledgeable and perhaps most experienced person on this board. I would trust his advice.
 
Space said:
It's quite likely that pulsing epi doesn't require a PCT because it's already an anti-estrogen. A PCT would be simply running another non-suppressive anti-estrogen after it.

The basic theory behind PCT is high levels of estrogen suppress testosterone production. If you are using non-aromatising compounds then high estrogen shouldn't be a problem and the body should naturally recover.

A lot of people have been talking about D-bol pulses and reporting natural recovery without PCT and D-bol is an aromatising compound. If this is the case epi would compare much more favorably because it's probably less suppressive than D-bol and non-aromatising.

Additionally, low levels of estrogen increase levels of LH increasing testosterone production. Since epi is an anti-estrogen, LH may be relatively high due to the low levels of estrogen, giving a head start to recovery after the epi is withdrawn. This is purely speculation though.

However one argument for PCT is the possibility of rebound gyno because such drastically low levels of estrogen throughout the entire cycle may render the estrogen receptors super-sensitive and normal levels of estrogen may aggravate gyno. Also speculation.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that high levels of estrogen suppress testosterone. The steroid (including epistane!) causes the body to think that it has enough test, and does not need to produce its own. This is the nature of suppression. In fact, High levels of estrogen during the initial weeks of PCT are good! This is why a SERM comes in handy because it keeps the estrogen from binding. By having high levels of estrogen, the body INCREASES testosterone (since there is no exogenous test from the steroid) in order to maintain homeostasis. As Test increases and estrogen (and cortisol) decreases, homeostasis results.
Please read
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html
 
edwards said:
In fact, High levels of estrogen during the initial weeks of PCT are good! This is why a SERM comes in handy because it keeps the estrogen from binding. By having high levels of estrogen, the body INCREASES testosterone (since there is no exogenous test from the steroid) in order to maintain homeostasis. As Test increases and estrogen (and cortisol) decreases, homeostasis results.
Please read
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html
Click to expand...

Interesting post, but SERMs competitively inhibit estrogen throughout the body including the hypothalamus, so I can't see how high levels of estrogen can have any effect on the body, let alone increase testosterone production. How could the body detect high levels of estrogen when all receptors are being competitively inhibited?

My understanding was that low levels of estrogen increase LH which increases testosterone, which aromatises to estrogen increasing estrogen to restore homeostasis.
 
haroldjg said:
The pulse method is awsome! I used the pulse method last summer. Leaned out, Put on 15 pounds of solid muscle, bench went up 100lbs, was barely suppressed if at all after 3 months, and continued to gain after cycle. I am pulsing now, with very good results as well, very little suppression if at all. And before you brush all of this off as Newb gains, I have been lifting seriousely for 6 years. And I wieght in at 255lbs at about 11% bf. The pusle method is the real deal, its just not as dramatic as regular cycling. If you like yoyo'ing all over the place then the pulse method is not for you. It offers slow, dry, steady gains, and you continue to gain after your done. A very week post cycle therapy can be implemented, but is not needed. The only thing I am going to be using for PCT this time will be ZMA, last time I only used ATD it turned out great.
Click to expand...

wow dude, nice gains! what did you pulse and how did you do it?
 
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