3AD, Epistane and their use in PCT

[precious_roy]

So I was pondering this the other day. When taken in small doses:

-Epistane / Havoc has anti-E properties, a positive effect on lipids, and upregulates HPTA
-3AD / 11-oxo has anti-cortisol properties
-Both are slightly anabolic

So could they replace your anti-E, anti-cortisol, and test boosters in PCT? For example

Week 1-5: Epistane 30mg + 3AD 450mg
Week 6-10: Epistane 10mg EOD + 3AD 150mg EOD

With proper cycle support supplements included of course. It goes against the typical protocol for PCT of steroids / prohormones but I think it might have some advantages such as limiting the number of different compounds you are putting in your body, etc.

Just a thought.

 

[RisingAgainst]

So I was pondering this the other day. When taken in small doses:

-Epistane / Havoc has anti-E properties, a positive effect on lipids, and upregulates HPTA
-3AD / 11-oxo has anti-cortisol properties
-Both are slightly anabolic

So could they replace your anti-E, anti-cortisol, and test boosters in post cycle therapy? For example

Week 1-5: Epistane 30mg + 3AD 450mg
Week 6-10: Epistane 10mg EOD + 3AD 150mg EOD

With proper cycle support supplements included of course. It goes against the typical protocol for PCT of steroids / prohormones but I think it might have some advantages such as limiting the number of different compounds you are putting in your body, etc.

Just a thought.

You can't use something suppressive during a time period that you are trying to RECOVER from.. PCT isnt just about anti-e and cortisol...

 

[precious_roy]

You can't use something suppressive during a time period that you are trying to RECOVER from.. post cycle therapy isnt just about anti-e and cortisol...

I believe it has been stated in another thread that Epistane is non supressive in low doses, and I think that PA said the same about 11oxo. But thats why I posted this: so that others with better knowledge of the low dose effects of the compounds could weigh in.

 

[rpen22]

This type of thing was just discussed yesterday with Dr. D.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66267-epistane-during-post.html

 

[sogone2day]

but what about the 3ad at a low dose

 

[precious_roy]

but what about the 3ad at a low dose

I don't know. That thread about 11oxo over at BB.com is a cluster**** so its hard to make much out of it. I don't think PA stated outright that taking it in low doses for anti-cort required PCT, but that doesn't mean its not supressive.

 

[gotripped]

It is a prohormone. Therefore, It is suppressive in some manner. Clomid/Nolva work to reverse the suppression, whereas, a prohormone such as Epistane and 3AD (while having anti-cortisol/anti-e effects) will still suppress HPTA. That is close to saying that because of Winstrol's Anti-E effects it should be used in post cycle therapy as well. That is clearly ridiculous in thought.

 

[precious_roy]

It is a prohormone. Therefore, It is suppressive in some manner. Clomid/Nolva work to reverse the suppression, whereas, a prohormone such as Epistane and 3AD (while having anti-cortisol/anti-e effects) will still suppress HPTA. That is close to saying that because of Winstrol's Anti-E effects it should be used in post cycle therapy as well. That is clearly ridiculous in thought.

Good point. Yes, I see what you are saying.

My question is could you use, for example, epistane in SUCH A LOW DOSE as to make it non-supressive but still have a respectable anti-e effect?

 

[Blk98Bird]

Good point. Yes, I see what you are saying.

My question is could you use, for example, epistane in SUCH A LOW DOSE as to make it non-supressive but still have a respectable anti-e effect?

As I understand it, that isn't possible because even at a low dose you're introducing exogenous hormones which will lead to (at least) some minor suppression. This goes for the epi, i'm not sure exactly how 11-oxo/3ad function yet at a lower dose until I read more feedback.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Good point. Yes, I see what you are saying.

My question is could you use, for example, epistane in SUCH A LOW DOSE as to make it non-supressive but still have a respectable anti-e effect?

WHY in God's name would you spend 40 bucks for your anti e??? ESPECIALLY since you can pick up an ATD for like 20 bucks nowadays?

 

[precious_roy]

WHY in God's name would you spend 40 bucks for your anti e??? ESPECIALLY since you can pick up an ATD for like 20 bucks nowadays?

2 reasons

1) as I listed above, minimizing the number of different compounds introduced into your body.
2) IF you can take it at a lower dose EOD, then it would be cost effective.

1 bottle RR (90 caps) = $30
PCT of
week 1: 1 RR ED
week 2: 2 RR ED
week 3: 2 RR ED
week 4: 2 RR ED

total = 49 caps = ~$16

1 bottle 3AD (90 caps) = $40
PCT of
week 1: 2 3AD EOD
week 2: 1 3AD EOD
week 3: 1 3AD EOD
week 4: 1 3AD EOD

total = 20 caps = ~$9

 

[rpen22]

ATD (90 caps) By NutraPlanet

 

[Ubiquitous]

Toremifine, 7OH, sapponins, rest and deload phase.

Does the trick. NO need to make things more complex than they need to be, especially when you are trying to recover.

Don't use a suppressive compound.

 

[precious_roy]

ATD (90 caps) By NutraPlanet

Ok. That defeats that argument :sad:

~$8 for the ATD PCT.

 

[precious_roy]

Toremifine, 7OH, sapponins, rest and deload phase.

Does the trick. NO need to make things more complex than they need to be, especially when you are trying to recover.

Don't use a suppressive compound.

Ok I see my confusion. Does Epi (in low doses / pulsed) have a positive effect on returning endogenous hormones to their normal levels or a negative effect?

Not that I can think of. It's a great way to attenuate toxicity and delay suppression with really nasty stuff like M1T and also a cool way to basically avoid suppression with very clean compounds like Epi. Things like Epi and Dbol actually increase LH initially, so pulsing is almost like having 3 initial doses every week instead of just at the beginning of a cycle. In fact, several guys have done this with Epi (like mfoley) at up to 60mg and reported excellent results. He followed with MFX with a little ATD now just for the heck of it, but more as a bridge than a post cycle therapy. He said he never crashed and was always going to pulse from now on.

Thats what I was basing this off of. Plus another post by DR.D that indicated a positive general effect on HPTA activity. I can't find that one.

One of my original points was that it was less complex, as you wouldn't have to ingest as many different compounds. Thats sort of what I was getting at.

 

[Blk98Bird]

2 reasons

1) as I listed above, minimizing the number of different compounds introduced into your body.
2) IF you can take it at a lower dose EOD, then it would be cost effective.

1 bottle RR (90 caps) = $30
post cycle therapy of
week 1: 1 RR ED
week 2: 2 RR ED
week 3: 2 RR ED
week 4: 2 RR ED

total = 49 caps = ~$16

1 bottle 3AD (90 caps) = $40
PCT of
week 1: 2 3AD EOD
week 2: 1 3AD EOD
week 3: 1 3AD EOD
week 4: 1 3AD EOD

total = 20 caps = ~$9

I think you're looking at 3ad in the wrong way with this comparison. 3ad is supposed to be an anti-cort type product that has anabolic properties at higher dosage rather than an AI. It would really be better compared to something like Retain in my opinion.

Epi is the one that has anti-e properties, but again you would be introducing exogenous test into your system even at a low dose so it wouldn't have the desired effect in this scenario.

 

[precious_roy]

I think you're looking at 3ad in the wrong way with this comparison. 3ad is supposed to be an anti-cort type product that has anabolic properties at higher dosage rather than an AI. It would really be better compared to something like Retain in my opinion.

Epi is the one that has anti-e properties, but again you would be introducing exogenous test into your system even at a low dose so it wouldn't have the desired effect in this scenario.

You are correct. That was a quadrouple typo.

Okay, well I guess the general consensus is that I'm wrong. Just tossing out experimental ideas for debate.

 

[Blk98Bird]

You are correct. That was a quadrouple typo.

Okay, well I guess the general consensus is that I'm wrong. Just tossing out experimental ideas for debate.

Yeah I figured . If it makes you feel better, I was thinking about something similar too a few days ago actually. Not with epi so much but with using 11-oxo as an anti-cort at low dosages. The verdict is still out on that one I think as far as how suppressive it is and at what dosages it starts to show those effects.

 

[djremix]

but what about the 3ad at a low dose

3-ad / 11-oxo is a PH

on its own its an anti-cort.

but they have said upto 60% of it is converted to 11-OXO-test which is suppressive.

this ph has a 4 metabolites, if it was one compound that is anti-cort and slightly anabolic then maybe...

 

[precious_roy]

Yeah I figured . If it makes you feel better, I was thinking about something similar too a few days ago actually. Not with epi so much but with using 11-oxo as an anti-cort at low dosages. The verdict is still out on that one I think as far as how suppressive it is and at what dosages it starts to show those effects.

Thanks. Whew; I thought I was totally nutso.

Yeah that whole 11oxo thing is a mystery. Ergopharm has it low dosed and PA is touting it almost solely as an anti-cort supplement. We'll have to wait and see...but the anticipation is just killing me!

 

[Blk98Bird]

Ditto, I think to be safe though it'll be best to stick with a normal anti-cort like retain or whatever else is out there these days until we have something more concrete in regards to 11-oxo/3ad and suppression.

I was originally thinking something like a havoc pulse with low dose atd/3ad on off days when I heard about the stuff.

 

[djremix]

Thanks. Whew; I thought I was totally nutso.

Yeah that whole 11oxo thing is a mystery. Ergopharm has it low dosed and PA is touting it almost solely as an anti-cort supplement. We'll have to wait and see...but the anticipation is just killing me!

both PA and AX agree its a great ph for a cut, i guess PA will be concentrating on that and AX on the mass building effect.
with respective dosages.

both will be suppressive though at varying degree's.

i think they will be an awesome addition to any cut cycle especially after pct for a massive bulk, and with anti-cort thrown in for free

 

[Blk98Bird]

both PA and AX agree its a great ph for a cut, i guess PA will be concentrating on that and AX on the mass building effect.
with respective dosages.

both will be suppressive though at varying degree's.

i think they will be an awesome addition to any cut cycle especially after post cycle therapy for a massive bulk, and with anti-cort thrown in for free

I agree, I'm waiting to see some more people run logs with various uses of this stuff.

I've yet to pop my cherry with hormonal products so it's all kinda new to me still .

 

[djremix]

I agree, I'm waiting to see some more people run logs with various uses of this stuff.

I've yet to pop my cherry with hormonal products so it's all kinda new to me still .

you gotta choose wisely, it all depends on your goals.

minimum suppression
max lbm
max fatloss(repartitioning)
max damage(m-1t :hammer: )

good luck with your choice