Testical shrinkage while on Havoc? - AnabolicMinds.com

Testical shrinkage while on Havoc?

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    Testical shrinkage while on Havoc?


    Anyone get this?

    Seems my sack no longer "hangs" and it feels as if my balls are smaller.

    Hoping during/after post cycle therapy they are back to normal

    Will use:

    Toremifene Citrate: Before Bed mixed with juice!
    Days 1-4 120mg then 90mg
    week 2 90mg
    week 3 60mg
    week 4 30mg (if needed)

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    Its commonly known around here as "shutdown" and with a proper PCT everything should return to normal.

    FWIW i am on day 3 of PCT from a Havoc cycle and I am still shutdown...I do however expect things to return to normal and its already looking better.
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    HCG keeps my balls swingin'. LOL
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    wow.
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    It's a common and temporary side effect of steroids. Do a good pct and everything will go back to normal.
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    Question is this


    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    It's a common and temporary side effect of steroids. Do a good post cycle therapy and everything will go back to normal.
    Is this kind of thing common with havoc or is it a rare thing?? because i have never noticed this in anyone elses threads
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    Quote Originally Posted by grila jujitsu View Post
    Is this kind of thing common with havoc or is it a rare thing?? because i have never noticed this in anyone elses threads
    It's common with all steroids. When you introduce exogenous steroids into your body, your body compensates by reducing the production of its natural steroids. The degree of shutdown depends upon the specific steroid and the individual's bodychemistry. People don't mention it much because it's common - not noteworthy. For what it's worth, Havoc has a reputation for relatively mild shutdown compared to many other oral steroids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    It's common with all steroids. When you introduce exogenous steroids into your body, your body compensates by reducing the production of its natural steroids. The degree of shutdown depends upon the specific steroid and the individual's bodychemistry. People don't mention it much because it's common - not noteworthy. For what it's worth, Havoc has a reputation for relatively mild shutdown compared to many other oral steroids.
    Question - when I took M1T, I noticed significant shrinkage within 2-3 days. I have been on SD for nearly a week, and haven't noticed any yet. Does that mean my body is still producing some of its own test, even though I am taking the SD?
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    Question shutdown


    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    It's common with all steroids. When you introduce exogenous steroids into your body, your body compensates by reducing the production of its natural steroids. The degree of shutdown depends upon the specific steroid and the individual's bodychemistry. People don't mention it much because it's common - not noteworthy. For what it's worth, Havoc has a reputation for relatively mild shutdown compared to many other oral steroids.
    ose: what is a good way to combat the shutdown??
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    Quote Originally Posted by grila jujitsu View Post
    ose: what is a good way to combat the shutdown??
    Honestly, if you don't know anything about shutdown, I would do alot more reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post
    Honestly, if you don't know anything about shutdown, I would do alot more reading.
    Agreed.



    As far as the question from 300, I definatly am noticing a bit of shutdown with Havoc. Nothing major, but definitely noticable. I am in the middle of my third and final week. Dosing it a bit high, 30/40/50.

    Don't sweat it. I'm not. Since you're running a SERM, you should be good to go soon. I'm going to using nolva starting Wednesday @ 60 for 2 days, then 40/40/20...I don't see a need to go past 3 weeks with the cycle I just ran. Plus I'm giving IGF-1 a whirl.

    But like YR already said. It's normal.
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    hey my guestion is of topic but was wondering is havoc a steroid or a prohome or what.everybody keeps calling it a steroid.and my other guestion is are stuff like jw,xf,hperdrolx2,maxx xf,etc. are they the same thing because hperdrolx2 says no need for pct needed but you do on havoc.i was going to go with hperdrolx2,maxx xf,retain for my next stack but would havoc be better i am looking for the best strongest legall i can get was hoping the experts here could help me if it is the havoc whats good to stack with it and a good pct after done.thanks for any info will be GREATLY APPRSCIATED.
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    no help for fellow am member.
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    Ben, you need to read up a bit, my friend.

    I'm in a good mood though, seeing as how it's friday and all...

    Quote Originally Posted by benjiman View Post
    hey my guestion is of topic but was wondering is havoc a steroid or a prohome or what.everybody keeps calling it a steroid. Everyone is right, it is a steroidand my other guestion is are stuff like jw,xf,hperdrolx2,maxx xf,etc. are they the same thing because hperdrolx2 says no need for post cycle therapy needed but you do on havoc.Not the same thing, most of these boost your bodies ability to produce testosterone in various waysi was going to go with hperdrolx2,maxx xf,retain for my next stack but would havoc be better i am looking for the best strongest legall i can get was hoping the experts here could help me if it is the havoc whats good to stack with it and a good post cycle therapy after doneIf you are set on doing a steroid research until you can answer these questions yourself..thanks for any info will be GREATLY APPRSCIATED.
    I think you intial idea to run Ax's MassFx, HDx2, Retain 2.0 stack would be your best bet. I'm looking forward to giving in a go soon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialK117 View Post
    Question - when I took M1T, I noticed significant shrinkage within 2-3 days. I have been on superdrol for nearly a week, and haven't noticed any yet. Does that mean my body is still producing some of its own test, even though I am taking the SD?
    M1T was the real champion in terms of causing fast shutdown. (In fact, M1T is the champion in many ways, both negative and positive.) I think SuperSoldier posted some bloodwork where his total test dropped to <100 after just 3 days. So it definitely is not representative of most other compounds.

    When I took SD, I did notice some shrinkage, but not for a couple weeks.
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    hey pumping thanks i have done a lot of reading over the 15 years of lifting.but it is all so confusing.if havoc is a steroid how is it legall and i have done steroids before deca,test,winy v etc.orall dbol. WELL I am older know an family and all just trying to stay legall wife don't like me using the reall deal with the needles and all u know.just kind of new to the legall prohomnes like they sale on this site.i know all those supps i said raise your test just was wondering why havoc needs a pct and hperdrolx2 and some of the others do not.and if i did do havoc what would be a good legall pct.thanks glade your in a good mood just looking for some answers i taught that what this forums were for THANKS FOR REALL BRO
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    Well the only things that are illegal in the US are found in the Steroid Act of 2004.

    The new prohormones, as you call them, are actually steroids. They aren't converted to hormones like say 1AD, but instead act int he same manner as the deca you injected.

    But they are methylated, so you run into a myriad of health risks. Things like Hyperdrol and MassFX are not steroids. They are extracts from herbs, most of the time, that your body utilizes to help its natural processes.
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    As far as your legal pct...you can get ahold of some research chems. They fall into a legal gray area. They are not intended for human consumption. But no one is holding a gun to you head, ya know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjiman View Post
    Hey my guestion is off topic, but I was wondering is Havoc a steroid or a prohormone?. Everybody keeps calling it a steroid. My other question is are things like JW,XF,Hyperdrol X2,Mass FX, and the like considered steroids?. I was going to go with Hyperdrol X2,Mass FX,and retain for my next stack. Would Havoc be a better choice?. I would appreciate an honest answer to all my misconceptions.

    Fixed.
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    haha.
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    i don't know why some guys on here got to be such jerks on here just trying to ask simple guestion if your to dumn to answer the guestion just say so because i was just asking for what to take for pct for havoc.
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    Although you are asking viable questions, they are questions that are easily answered if researched. Guys like myself are usually newb friendly. Others will **** with you for not doing your research first. Both personalities are needed on the boards, IMO. It gets old answering the same **** all of the time, lol.

    I don't want to jack 300's thread, so why not do some more research and then start your own thread with any questions that you still have. I'll be happy to help you if I can.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    Theres no need to get hostile and start name calling.We on these forums are asked the SAME questions over and over and over ........................ so if you were in our shoes and saw the same question come up 1000 times and you know full wel if the poster would have typed pct in the search engine they would have found sooooooooo much info that their post would have rather been "So what do you think of my pct plan" how would you feel.(thats an impressive run on isnt it )

    So serm,ai,test uncoupler of choice will give you a great pct.Good luck!


    Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths . Proverbs 3:5-6
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    True...there is an entire post cycle therapy subforum.
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    Question


    Quote Originally Posted by PumpingIron View Post
    Agreed.



    As far as the question from 300, I definatly am noticing a bit of shutdown with Havoc. Nothing major, but definitely noticable. I am in the middle of my third and final week. Dosing it a bit high, 30/40/50.

    Don't sweat it. I'm not. Since you're running a SERM, you should be good to go soon. I'm going to using nolva starting Wednesday @ 60 for 2 days, then 40/40/20...I don't see a need to go past 3 weeks with the cycle I just ran. Plus I'm giving IGF-1 a whirl.

    But like YR already said. It's normal.
    MOD EDIT: YOU CAN'T ASK THAT QUESTION HERE.

    i read that some ai's can cause shrinking balls too? true?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialK117 View Post
    Question - when I took M1T, I noticed significant shrinkage within 2-3 days. I have been on superdrol for nearly a week, and haven't noticed any yet. Does that mean my body is still producing some of its own test, even though I am taking the superdrol?
    M1T is just stunningly harsh on your body. Total shutdown happens within days. Other products are less suppressive. I would imagine that your body is still producing test but towards the end of your cycle you're probably going to be running on empty.

    That's why the consensus at AM is to use a SERM in post cycle therapy to jumpstart your HPTA again. If you don't use anything, your body will probably return to normal given enough time anyway. Using an AI can accelerate this process....but to get things going quick (and not lose all the muscle you just put on because your body is devoid of test), a SERM is best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grila jujitsu View Post
    ose: what is a good way to combat the shutdown??
    1) Avoid steroids.
    2) Use lightly suppressive compounds for short durations.
    3) Human Chorionic Gonadrotropin (partially effective)
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpingIron View Post
    Well the only things that are illegal in the US are found in the Steroid Act of 2004.
    This is not an opinion that I share.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    M1T is just stunningly harsh on your body. Total shutdown happens within days. Other products are less suppressive. I would imagine that your body is still producing test but towards the end of your cycle you're probably going to be running on empty.

    That's why the consensus at AM is to use a SERM in post cycle therapy to jumpstart your HPTA again. If you don't use anything, your body will probably return to normal given enough time anyway. Using an AI can accelerate this process....but to get things going quick (and not lose all the muscle you just put on because your body is devoid of test), a SERM is best.
    im just going to go ahead and say it.

    i thought havoc was MUCH worse on my system than m1t ever was, and i used it 4 times. in month long cycles.

    by the end of my month on havoc i needed literally 12 hours of sleep a day, i had some serious digestion issues (ill leave it at that), and my mood swings were way out of control. i believe i stopped my log at the 2nd week because i simply didnt have the energy to type. stuff was pretty bad on the libido as well.

    id take m1t over havoc ANY day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    im just going to go ahead and say it.

    i thought havoc was MUCH worse on my system than m1t ever was, and i used it 4 times. in month long cycles.

    by the end of my month on havoc i needed literally 12 hours of sleep a day, i had some serious digestion issues (ill leave it at that), and my mood swings were way out of control. i believe i stopped my log at the 2nd week because i simply didnt have the energy to type. stuff was pretty bad on the libido as well.

    id take m1t over havoc ANY day.
    Hmmm, maybe I should use m1T next. lol, different strokes for different folks. All these methyls seem to be so different on so many different people I am beginning to think its just better not to use them at all. But its still a friggin pain in da ars to find some reliable gear!

    Jomi did you get bloodwork on either cycle (m1t or havoc)? Just curious how they compare. Read your havoc log and it didnt sound good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    Hmmm, maybe I should use m1T next. lol, different strokes for different folks. All these methyls seem to be so different on so many different people I am beginning to think its just better not to use them at all. But its still a friggin pain in da ars to find some reliable gear!

    Jomi did you get bloodwork on either cycle (m1t or havoc)? Just curious how they compare. Read your havoc log and it didnt sound good.
    i did get blood work done for two of those cycles, post cycle. thats what i got for using an AI only. ****in tahded

    i dont remember the numbers but for one (my first one) my testosterone wasnt fully recovered and everything else was in the green.

    for the second one, i was green across the board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    This is not an opinion that I share.
    No, why not? Are there others?
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    M1T is just stunningly harsh on your body. Total shutdown happens within days. Other products are less suppressive. I would imagine that your body is still producing test but towards the end of your cycle you're probably going to be running on empty.

    That's why the consensus at AM is to use a SERM in post cycle therapy to jumpstart your HPTA again. If you don't use anything, your body will probably return to normal given enough time anyway. Using an AI can accelerate this process....but to get things going quick (and not lose all the muscle you just put on because your body is devoid of test), a SERM is best.
    I was planning to follow Dr. D's idea of ramping the SERM down while simultaneously ramping an AI up during PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpingIron View Post
    No, why not? Are there others?

    Anabolic Steroid Control Act:


    "The term “anabolic steroid” means any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, corticosteroids, and dehydroepiandrosterone), and includes—"

    The AND INCLUDES is the part most people misunderstand because it is followed by a long list a steroids. People look down the list and go "not listed here, must be legal" but the law just gives those as examples.

    The italicized portion of the Act quoted above is subject to a lot of interpretation and as long as a good faith argument can be made that a given product meets that definition (any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone), you could be prosecuted.

    It doesn't mean that you'd necessarily be convicted...there are lots of possible defenses.....but your life would suck for a couple years while you fought it.

    Moreover, the FDA has been taking the position that these substances do not meet the definition of "dietary supplement" and that they are by default "unapproved drugs." Distribution of unapproved and/or misbranded drugs carries penalties under a different set of laws.
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    fortuneatley, state laws are a bit more specific. chances are that havoc, etc arent on the state banned list.

    bit of a loophole...until a company get reamed by the feds. at that point everyone can and probably will be prosecuted since a standard of interpretation would be in effect.

    basically, we are fine until theres a problem if youd like to think of it that way

    staties probably cant touch you though, no worries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    fortuneatley, state laws are a bit more specific. chances are that havoc, etc arent on the state banned list.

    bit of a loophole...until a company get reamed by the feds. at that point everyone can and probably will be prosecuted since a standard of interpretation would be in effect.

    basically, we are fine until theres a problem if youd like to think of it that way

    staties probably cant touch you though, no worries.
    Federal law pre-empts state law. If your state's law is more lax, then it is superceded by the federal law. Local authorities could simply turn a person over to federal custody. This happens all the time. The threat of turning someone over to federal prosecution (where the manadatory minimum sentences are usually much higher) is used to coerce people into pleading guilty to state charges (even if conviction on the state statute is questionable). The person looks at 6 months in their county jail if they plead guilty versus a mandatory minimum of 15 years in federal prison and they plead out.

    I'm not saying that people should panic but what I am saying is that there is a hell of a lot of brotelligence on the legality of these substances that is terrible legal advice.
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    Good stuff...never really thought of it that way.
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    well that might be the case yeahright, but find me a state trooper who is going to arrest you for something like a bottle of havoc. i just dont really see a state trooper taking a bro into custody for a bottle of epistane in his glove compartment. there just really no correlation between this new fed law and the old state steroid laws.

    besides, i doub anything like this new resembles testosterone/steroid BS is going to fly. by the definition in that law cholesterol is a ****ing banned substance. lets be seriousl
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    well that might be the case yeahright, but find me a state trooper who is going to arrest you for something like a bottle of havoc. i just dont really see a state trooper taking a bro into custody for a bottle of epistane in his glove compartment. there just really no correlation between this new fed law and the old state steroid laws.

    besides, i doub anything like this new resembles testosterone/steroid BS is going to fly. by the definition in that law cholesterol is a ****ing banned substance. lets be seriousl

    Yeah that is ridiculous. The cop wouldn't even know what it was, if it says "Supplement Facts:" on the bottle he "Knows" it is a "supplement". Some people are just really paranoid for no good reason I guess. Please post a link where someone was busted for possesion of steriods when those steriods were purchased over-the-counter...And I mean Havoc, Ergo-Max LMG, M1T, MDIEN, 1Test. Please, I would love to see it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    well that might be the case yeahright, but find me a state trooper who is going to arrest you for something like a bottle of havoc. i just dont really see a state trooper taking a bro into custody for a bottle of epistane in his glove compartment. there just really no correlation between this new fed law and the old state steroid laws.

    besides, i doub anything like this new resembles testosterone/steroid BS is going to fly. by the definition in that law cholesterol is a ****ing banned substance. lets be seriousl
    Go ask PA. He went to prison for distributing a substance that was presumably perfectly legal at the time (because he essentially invented it and there was no law against it).

    Ask the owners of all the big supplement companies what their lawyers told them (notice how they ALL stopped producing these products).

    What we have now are small companies and shell companies flying under the radar. At some point, the feds will turn their attention back to this corner of the industry and a lot of people will be wearing orange jumpsuits.

    When a court is interpreting the law, they will look at legislative intent (what did the legislators writing the law intend the law to do). Here, the record is quite clear that Congress intended to stop the game where producers simply scanned the list of banned substances and then started producing things not listed. The current law is meant precisely to outlaw testosterone variations used for anabolic purposes. So no, cholesterol is not illegal. However, prostanozol certainly would be.

    You don't have to believe a thing I say. It's comforting to believe that there is some playground rule protecting these products (no tag backs, can't touch me while I'm in the safe zone, etc.). However, that's simply not the case.

    Any prosecutor looking to make a name for himself could use that law to fill jail cells. Do you think a jury is going to acquit someone for producing designer steroids because they tweaked their product to avoid producing one on the enumerated list? Not a chance. Waive jury trial and take your chances before a judge - the judge is going to examine congressional intent.

    Retail users have a few defenses they could make but the producers much less so.

    Legal analysis is complicated. That's why people get paid to do it for a living. Your analysis is mostly wishful thinking. We're enjoying a quiet time right now because govt. attention shifted elsewhere but that could change if the next Mitchell report states that baseball players are taking these OTC designer steroids. Once the media spotlight shines on this corner of the industry, things are going to get ugly fast. Local police will suddenly understand what these products are. State stautes will be quickly amended. IMHO, it's just a matter of time.
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