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270 versus 288

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    270 versus 288


    i am referring to the epithio steroid debate, and which molecular ion peak value is most consistent with the compound

    I have tested hundreds of steroids on GC/MS. I know how they behave. So I am very confident in my opinion.

    The molecular weight of the epithio steroid is 320. This steroid is known to easily lose a sulfur atom if heated. A double bond is left behind.

    ---
    Lightner, Djerassi, Chem&Ind, 1237(1962)

    IN this article they demonstrate the pryolytic breakdown of the very similar 2alpha,3alpha-epithio-5alpha-cholestan to delta2-5alpha-cholestan at 130 C.
    ----------

    That gives you a molecular weight of 288. And that is the molecular ion peak we see with havoc and hemaguno. In fact this mass spectrum matches that of DMT (which if you lose the sulfur in this manner, you should get this)

    It has been argued that the teritary alcohol at C17 can dehydrate. If this occured then you would have a molecular ion peak of 270

    However dehydration of the C17 tertiary alcohol does not occur. I believe I can be considered a solid authority on this. I never shot in a 17alpha-methyl steroid that did this

    If indeed this did happen, then if I were to shoot DMT into the GC/MS i would get a mass spectrum with M+ of 270. But i do not, i get 288, and it matches what is seen with hemaguno and havoc. I have tested DMT before, trust me.

    Its 100% inarguable in my mind. The only possiblity is that hemaguno and havoc have DMT in them and not epithio. but other tests can confirm or deny this

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    So in all possibility, the havoc and hemo have DMT, but epithio does not have DMT...what % would u place on this? >70% chance or is it a far fetched occurrence....

    If this is the case then the 270 vs 280 is solved....the only question is that if epithio does not contain DMT, then ????????
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    PA, how does this translate into product purity.

    in the tests i have seen all 3 brands have have under 4mgs out of 10mgs of the substance they were tested for.

    does this mean epistane contains the wrong substance in an underdosed quanitity?

    does this mean huma and havoc were tested under the wrong standard and really contain more than the amount they were tested for having per capsule?

    are all products underdosed?

    someone really needs to break this down to a non chemistry perspective
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    So in all possibility, the havoc and hemo have DMT, but epithio does not have DMT...what % would u place on this? >70% chance or is it a far fetched occurrence....

    If this is the case then the 270 vs 280 is solved....the only question is that if epithio does not contain DMT, then ????????

    If you open havoc it smells clearly like sulfur. So either it contains the right stuff or someone put dmt in there and sprinkled sulfur in there to fool people

    i would put my bets on it being the right compound
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    PA, how does this translate into product purity.

    in the tests i have seen all 3 brands have have under 4mgs out of 10mgs of the substance they were tested for.

    does this mean epistane contains the wrong substance in an underdosed quanitity?

    does this mean huma and havoc were tested under the wrong standard and really contain more than the amount they were tested for having per capsule?

    are all products underdosed?

    someone really needs to break this down to a non chemistry perspective


    we did not do anything to look for amount per capsule. We merely wanted to see if the major ingredient matched up with what was on the label

    doing a quantitative test is a pain in the ass compared to just shooting it in and looking at the qualitative results. not worth wasting our time
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    I will do Anything for love... but I wont do that...

    ...Ooops... wrong thread.

    Let the drama begin again.

    Good to see a figure head like PA around here.

    Welcome *back* PA.

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    So PA youre official position is that, under the same conditions in the same exact test, Huma and Havoc appear to have a different compound (that you conside to be the correct compound) than Epistane does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    So PA youre official position is that, under the same conditions in the same exact test, Huma and Havoc appear to have a different compound (that you conside to be the correct compound) than Epistane does.

    I feel strongly that this is the case
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    This is all so strange.
    But isnt epistane acting as the compound should with the serm effects that people are showing in the logs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    This is all so strange.
    But isnt epistane acting as the compound should with the serm effects that people are showing in the logs.
    Exactly, which is why I said it isn't hard to look at the logs and see how it reacts. Heck, some hair shedding was one of the only sides from Epi and it is pretty closely related to DHT if you look at structure.


    Pat: Epistane Results Chapter 3: The CONCLUSION
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    what about the gyno reduction that epistane users have reported, doesn't dmt aromatize to some extent making this impossible?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Exactly, which is why I said it isn't hard to look at the logs and see how it reacts. Heck, some hair shedding was one of the only sides from Epi and it is pretty closely related to DHT if you look at structure.


    Pat: Epistane Results Chapter 3: The CONCLUSION
    I know.. Its just too bad that i ordered Havoc instead of Epi because at the time Epi was all sold out! :S
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    what about the gyno reduction that epistane users have reported, doesn't dmt aromatize to some extent making this impossible?
    Well i beleive epistane acts more of a serm than an ai, so i don't think it would be impossible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    If you open havoc it smells clearly like sulfur. So either it contains the right stuff or someone put dmt in there and sprinkled sulfur in there to fool people

    i would put my bets on it being the right compound
    Like OMG! I cant believe all this **** talking was for nothing!

    thank you for clearing this up, now can we please just USE the products instead of criticizing them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    This is all so strange.
    But isnt epistane acting as the compound should with the serm effects that people are showing in the logs.
    epithio is a non aromatizing dht derivative. should give dry gains and help with gyno and strength.

    but there are dozens of other such steroids, both pharmaceutical and designer, and all will pretty much give the same results
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    Well i beleive epistane acts more of a serm than an ai, so i don't think it would be impossible.
    i know of no evidence that it acts as either. yes, the epithio drugs were sold for breast cancer treatment but DHT was used for breast cancer treatment before as was masteron.

    Androgens antagonize the actions of estrogens without having to affect the binding of estrogens to the receptor.
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    PA, if you follow that link that LMD posted, the doctors writeup lists Epistane and Havoc as having two different names for their actives.

    Epistane: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methylethioallo cholan-17b-ol

    Havoc: 2a,3a epithio-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

    The doc also says that Havoc has a double bond, whereas Epistane has a single bond, so that's why Havoc doesn't dehydrate in the injection port of the GC chamber but Epistane does. To my mind, that means two different compounds. But, I can't decode IUPAC nomenclature for beans. Are these names both synonyms for the same compound?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    PA, if you follow that link that LMD posted, the doctors writeup lists Epistane and Havoc as having two different names for their actives.

    Epistane: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methylethioallo cholan-17b-ol

    Havoc: 2a,3a epithio-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

    The doc also says that Havoc has a double bond, whereas Epistane has a single bond, so that's why Havoc doesn't dehydrate in the injection port of the GC chamber but Epistane does. To my mind, that means two different compounds. But, I can't decode IUPAC nomenclature for beans. Are these names both synonyms for the same compound?
    ethioallocholan = 5a-androstan from my understanding, just one is more dated than the other.
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    my only question is.....reguardless of which is what its supposed to be which one works better.....so far ive read more positivemreviewsmfrom epi
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    Bumping for "laymans terms" recap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    ethioallocholan = 5a-androstan from my understanding, just one is more dated than the other.
    Ethioallocholan should be etioallocholan, but after that correction (which the doc needs to make in his original paper [the dude apparently is not a linguist]) I agree. They should be the same thing.

    Yet he talks about Havoc having a double bond, and Epistane having a single bond. Not sure how much that matters, but it certainly sounds like two different compounds.

    I'm also confused about this demthylation thing, I thought it was dehydration which brought the M+ down to 270.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    PA, if you follow that link that LMD posted, the doctors writeup lists Epistane and Havoc as having two different names for their actives.

    Epistane: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methylethioallo cholan-17b-ol

    Havoc: 2a,3a epithio-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

    The doc also says that Havoc has a double bond, whereas Epistane has a single bond, so that's why Havoc doesn't dehydrate in the injection port of the GC chamber but Epistane does. To my mind, that means two different compounds. But, I can't decode IUPAC nomenclature for beans. Are these names both synonyms for the same compound?


    the nomenclature he used there for havoc does not designate there being any double bond. So the mention of a double bond is inconsistent and nonsensical

    the doctor also said demethylation (twice) when he should have said dehydration. Dehydration is a common occurence in gas chromatography, so no analytical chemist would mistake the word demethylation for dehydration

    lastly, there is no commercially avaialbable standard for either the alpha or beta isomers of this stuff. So i cannot fathom how this doctor was able to come to such a confident conclusion

    its very suspicious
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    Ethioallocholan should be etioallocholan, but after that correction (which the doc needs to make in his original paper [the dude apparently is not a linguist]) I agree. They should be the same thing.

    Yet he talks about Havoc having a double bond, and Epistane having a single bond. Not sure how much that matters, but it certainly sounds like two different compounds.

    I'm also confused about this demthylation thing, I thought it was dehydration which brought the M+ down to 270.
    yes, another "scratch your head" aspect of this letter
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    This is going to make me start pooping blood.
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    Do Epi & Hemaguno smell like sulfur?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    lastly, there is no commercially avaialbable standard for either the alpha or beta isomers of this stuff. So i cannot fathom how this doctor was able to come to such a confident conclusion

    its very suspicious
    He apparently sourced a pure version. Don't know about the beta though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    Very suspicious, are you really trying to argue with a forensic toxicologist with a PHD. If you have questions, why don't you call the doctor himself and clarify his findings instead of giving your opinion as to why you feel he is incorrect? He does charge a consultation fee, but if you are that interested in exploring further I am sure you won't mind adding to the series of data that has already been supplied by IBE.
    Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he gets a pass. In fact, part of getting a PhD is defending your thesis against rigorous attacks. This report is riddled with errors, but the guy who wrote it should be able to explain them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    Very suspicious, are you really trying to argue with a forensic toxicologist with a PHD. If you have questions, why don't you call the doctor himself and clarify his findings instead of giving your opinion as to why you feel he is incorrect? He does charge a consultation fee, but if you are that interested in exploring further I am sure you won't mind adding to the series of data that has already been supplied by IBE.
    Exactly what I was going to post!! Good post.


    Not to mention the fact it is LC not GC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he gets a pass. In fact, part of getting a PhD is defending your thesis against rigorous attacks. This report is riddled with errors, but the guy who wrote it should be able to explain them.
    so call him and argue with him....? I bet IBE will give you the number if you are so inclined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Exactly what I was going to post!! Good post.
    Said the IBE employee to his boss. But I digress.

    Not to mention the fact it is LC not GC.
    Doesn't matter. This paper is still full of discrepancies.
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    Keep it on topic!

    Chad (aka:crazyotter), please don't push your luck.

    Thanks
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    I'm now waiting on a call back from Dr. Lykissa, so don't everybody go phone spamming the poor guy. As soon as I know something, ya'll will know something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    I'm now waiting on a call back from Dr. Lykissa, so don't everybody go phone spamming the poor guy. As soon as I know something, ya'll will know something.
    FINALLY. I am glad you are calling him. Although he might charge you a consultation fee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he gets a pass. In fact, part of getting a PhD is defending your thesis against rigorous attacks. This report is riddled with errors, but the guy who wrote it should be able to explain them.
    But it is on the acuser to bear the burden of proof 1st and doesnt a PhD carry more "real world" weight than an accusing supp designer?


    Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths . Proverbs 3:5-6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmowry View Post
    But it is on the acuser to bear the burden of proof 1st and doesnt a PhD carry more "real world" weight than an accusing supp designer?
    Me? A supp designer? I wish.

    As for the burden of proof, that's debatable, but I'm taking it anyway. I'll hit the Doc with discrepancies, and he'll clear them up.
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    The post wasnt directed at you but you will do best of luck with your phone sleuthing.


    Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths . Proverbs 3:5-6
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    As a matter of fact PA, IBE will pay your consultation fee if you like, call and set up a time and ask anything you like to satisfy your questions about the doctor's report. It has never been about the money and we don't have anything to hide. But, I would like to ask since you claim unbias here, is where is your data and conclusive statements/further testing to support an argument against this data, other than your opinion of course?

    do i need to provide data to prove that demethylation and dehydration are spelled differently?

    I need to provide data to prove that there is no double bond in this chemical?

    i am arguing obvious inaccuracies and inconsitencies in your letter. Things that do not require graphs and math equations etc
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    I still haven't heard back from the doctor, and I've got to go bouncing until 2AM. If he does call, he's gonna get my voicemail. If anybody else has any ideas in the mean time, have at 'em.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    do i need to provide data to prove that demethylation and dehydration are spelled differently?

    I need to provide data to prove that there is no double bond in this chemical?

    i am arguing obvious inaccuracies and inconsitencies in your letter. Things that do not require graphs and math equations etc
    So is that a yes or a no to speaking with the doctor? Do you really feel that this guy, who tests compounds for his job day in a day out, would stake his PhD on the line and put his signature on something that he wasn't sure of? Doubt it.

    But by all means speak with him. We will gladly conference you in, pay your way, and have a conference with him and allow you to express your concerns. You aren't providing much data against really. Not quite sure why you are continuously attacking us.

    If you are so concerned with "quality" why not check out the fact that a certain product (not Havoc) tested so much lower than others as far as concentration is concerned. Seems a little one-sided and biased doesn't it?

    Oh and I noticed you edited your thread on bb.com where you said that the letter was fake because there was "no letterhead" on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    So is that a yes or a no to speaking with the doctor? Do you really feel that this guy, who tests compounds for his job day in a day out, would stake his PhD on the line and put his signature on something that he wasn't sure of? Doubt it.

    But by all means speak with him. We will gladly conference you in, pay your way, and have a conference with him and allow you to express your concerns. You aren't providing much data against really. Not quite sure why you are continuously attacking us.

    If you are so concerned with "quality" why not check out the fact that a certain product (not Havoc) tested so much lower than others as far as concentration is concerned. Seems a little one-sided and biased doesn't it?

    Oh and I noticed you edited your thread on bb.com where you said that the letter was fake because there was "no letterhead" on it.

    i may have matt talk with him. i edited my letter because i thought it was too mean spirited and i am trying MY BEST to be civil in this matter. i don't want this to be an attack on anyone. if you choose to take it that way thats your problem

    If havoc tested lower than others than they are at fault. they get no pass from me. And knowing Matt from RPN he would be man enough to admit he made a mistake.

    there are so many inconsistencies in that letter just as there have been so many inconsistencies in this whole debate from IBE. The sad fact though is that this matter is so technical that 99.9% of people reading it cannot make a judgment on who is right or who is wrong based on anything but who "appears" to be right

    I have been accused of attacking companies products and lying because of alterior motives before. just like you are accusing me here. examples are legal gear and their hype about product X transdermal, designer supplements and the faulty "rebound XT" batch, and the first methyl-D batch that had crap in it.

    History proved me correct on all these. And it will prove me correct here too
  

  
 

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