270 versus 288

Page 1 of 5 123 ... Last
  1. 270 versus 288


    i am referring to the epithio steroid debate, and which molecular ion peak value is most consistent with the compound

    I have tested hundreds of steroids on GC/MS. I know how they behave. So I am very confident in my opinion.

    The molecular weight of the epithio steroid is 320. This steroid is known to easily lose a sulfur atom if heated. A double bond is left behind.

    ---
    Lightner, Djerassi, Chem&Ind, 1237(1962)

    IN this article they demonstrate the pryolytic breakdown of the very similar 2alpha,3alpha-epithio-5alpha-cholestan to delta2-5alpha-cholestan at 130 C.
    ----------

    That gives you a molecular weight of 288. And that is the molecular ion peak we see with havoc and hemaguno. In fact this mass spectrum matches that of DMT (which if you lose the sulfur in this manner, you should get this)

    It has been argued that the teritary alcohol at C17 can dehydrate. If this occured then you would have a molecular ion peak of 270

    However dehydration of the C17 tertiary alcohol does not occur. I believe I can be considered a solid authority on this. I never shot in a 17alpha-methyl steroid that did this

    If indeed this did happen, then if I were to shoot DMT into the GC/MS i would get a mass spectrum with M+ of 270. But i do not, i get 288, and it matches what is seen with hemaguno and havoc. I have tested DMT before, trust me.

    Its 100% inarguable in my mind. The only possiblity is that hemaguno and havoc have DMT in them and not epithio. but other tests can confirm or deny this


  2. So in all possibility, the havoc and hemo have DMT, but epithio does not have DMT...what % would u place on this? >70% chance or is it a far fetched occurrence....

    If this is the case then the 270 vs 280 is solved....the only question is that if epithio does not contain DMT, then ????????
    •   
       


  3. PA, how does this translate into product purity.

    in the tests i have seen all 3 brands have have under 4mgs out of 10mgs of the substance they were tested for.

    does this mean epistane contains the wrong substance in an underdosed quanitity?

    does this mean huma and havoc were tested under the wrong standard and really contain more than the amount they were tested for having per capsule?

    are all products underdosed?

    someone really needs to break this down to a non chemistry perspective

  4. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    So in all possibility, the havoc and hemo have DMT, but epithio does not have DMT...what % would u place on this? >70% chance or is it a far fetched occurrence....

    If this is the case then the 270 vs 280 is solved....the only question is that if epithio does not contain DMT, then ????????

    If you open havoc it smells clearly like sulfur. So either it contains the right stuff or someone put dmt in there and sprinkled sulfur in there to fool people

    i would put my bets on it being the right compound

  5. Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    PA, how does this translate into product purity.

    in the tests i have seen all 3 brands have have under 4mgs out of 10mgs of the substance they were tested for.

    does this mean epistane contains the wrong substance in an underdosed quanitity?

    does this mean huma and havoc were tested under the wrong standard and really contain more than the amount they were tested for having per capsule?

    are all products underdosed?

    someone really needs to break this down to a non chemistry perspective


    we did not do anything to look for amount per capsule. We merely wanted to see if the major ingredient matched up with what was on the label

    doing a quantitative test is a pain in the ass compared to just shooting it in and looking at the qualitative results. not worth wasting our time

  6. I will do Anything for love... but I wont do that...

    ...Ooops... wrong thread.

    Let the drama begin again.

    Good to see a figure head like PA around here.

    Welcome *back* PA.

    Adams
    The Historic PES Legend

  7. So PA youre official position is that, under the same conditions in the same exact test, Huma and Havoc appear to have a different compound (that you conside to be the correct compound) than Epistane does.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    So PA youre official position is that, under the same conditions in the same exact test, Huma and Havoc appear to have a different compound (that you conside to be the correct compound) than Epistane does.

    I feel strongly that this is the case

  9. This is all so strange.
    But isnt epistane acting as the compound should with the serm effects that people are showing in the logs.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    This is all so strange.
    But isnt epistane acting as the compound should with the serm effects that people are showing in the logs.
    Exactly, which is why I said it isn't hard to look at the logs and see how it reacts. Heck, some hair shedding was one of the only sides from Epi and it is pretty closely related to DHT if you look at structure.


    Pat: Epistane Results Chapter 3: The CONCLUSION
    •   
       


  11. what about the gyno reduction that epistane users have reported, doesn't dmt aromatize to some extent making this impossible?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Exactly, which is why I said it isn't hard to look at the logs and see how it reacts. Heck, some hair shedding was one of the only sides from Epi and it is pretty closely related to DHT if you look at structure.


    Pat: Epistane Results Chapter 3: The CONCLUSION
    I know.. Its just too bad that i ordered Havoc instead of Epi because at the time Epi was all sold out! :S

  13. Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    what about the gyno reduction that epistane users have reported, doesn't dmt aromatize to some extent making this impossible?
    Well i beleive epistane acts more of a serm than an ai, so i don't think it would be impossible.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    If you open havoc it smells clearly like sulfur. So either it contains the right stuff or someone put dmt in there and sprinkled sulfur in there to fool people

    i would put my bets on it being the right compound
    Like OMG! I cant believe all this **** talking was for nothing!

    thank you for clearing this up, now can we please just USE the products instead of criticizing them?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    This is all so strange.
    But isnt epistane acting as the compound should with the serm effects that people are showing in the logs.
    epithio is a non aromatizing dht derivative. should give dry gains and help with gyno and strength.

    but there are dozens of other such steroids, both pharmaceutical and designer, and all will pretty much give the same results

  16. Quote Originally Posted by gogo View Post
    Well i beleive epistane acts more of a serm than an ai, so i don't think it would be impossible.
    i know of no evidence that it acts as either. yes, the epithio drugs were sold for breast cancer treatment but DHT was used for breast cancer treatment before as was masteron.

    Androgens antagonize the actions of estrogens without having to affect the binding of estrogens to the receptor.

  17. PA, if you follow that link that LMD posted, the doctors writeup lists Epistane and Havoc as having two different names for their actives.

    Epistane: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methylethioallo cholan-17b-ol

    Havoc: 2a,3a epithio-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

    The doc also says that Havoc has a double bond, whereas Epistane has a single bond, so that's why Havoc doesn't dehydrate in the injection port of the GC chamber but Epistane does. To my mind, that means two different compounds. But, I can't decode IUPAC nomenclature for beans. Are these names both synonyms for the same compound?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    PA, if you follow that link that LMD posted, the doctors writeup lists Epistane and Havoc as having two different names for their actives.

    Epistane: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methylethioallo cholan-17b-ol

    Havoc: 2a,3a epithio-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

    The doc also says that Havoc has a double bond, whereas Epistane has a single bond, so that's why Havoc doesn't dehydrate in the injection port of the GC chamber but Epistane does. To my mind, that means two different compounds. But, I can't decode IUPAC nomenclature for beans. Are these names both synonyms for the same compound?
    ethioallocholan = 5a-androstan from my understanding, just one is more dated than the other.

  19. my only question is.....reguardless of which is what its supposed to be which one works better.....so far ive read more positivemreviewsmfrom epi

  20. Bumping for "laymans terms" recap.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    ethioallocholan = 5a-androstan from my understanding, just one is more dated than the other.
    Ethioallocholan should be etioallocholan, but after that correction (which the doc needs to make in his original paper [the dude apparently is not a linguist]) I agree. They should be the same thing.

    Yet he talks about Havoc having a double bond, and Epistane having a single bond. Not sure how much that matters, but it certainly sounds like two different compounds.

    I'm also confused about this demthylation thing, I thought it was dehydration which brought the M+ down to 270.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    PA, if you follow that link that LMD posted, the doctors writeup lists Epistane and Havoc as having two different names for their actives.

    Epistane: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methylethioallo cholan-17b-ol

    Havoc: 2a,3a epithio-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

    The doc also says that Havoc has a double bond, whereas Epistane has a single bond, so that's why Havoc doesn't dehydrate in the injection port of the GC chamber but Epistane does. To my mind, that means two different compounds. But, I can't decode IUPAC nomenclature for beans. Are these names both synonyms for the same compound?


    the nomenclature he used there for havoc does not designate there being any double bond. So the mention of a double bond is inconsistent and nonsensical

    the doctor also said demethylation (twice) when he should have said dehydration. Dehydration is a common occurence in gas chromatography, so no analytical chemist would mistake the word demethylation for dehydration

    lastly, there is no commercially avaialbable standard for either the alpha or beta isomers of this stuff. So i cannot fathom how this doctor was able to come to such a confident conclusion

    its very suspicious

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    Ethioallocholan should be etioallocholan, but after that correction (which the doc needs to make in his original paper [the dude apparently is not a linguist]) I agree. They should be the same thing.

    Yet he talks about Havoc having a double bond, and Epistane having a single bond. Not sure how much that matters, but it certainly sounds like two different compounds.

    I'm also confused about this demthylation thing, I thought it was dehydration which brought the M+ down to 270.
    yes, another "scratch your head" aspect of this letter

  24. This is going to make me start pooping blood.

  25. Do Epi & Hemaguno smell like sulfur?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    lastly, there is no commercially avaialbable standard for either the alpha or beta isomers of this stuff. So i cannot fathom how this doctor was able to come to such a confident conclusion

    its very suspicious
    He apparently sourced a pure version. Don't know about the beta though.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    Very suspicious, are you really trying to argue with a forensic toxicologist with a PHD. If you have questions, why don't you call the doctor himself and clarify his findings instead of giving your opinion as to why you feel he is incorrect? He does charge a consultation fee, but if you are that interested in exploring further I am sure you won't mind adding to the series of data that has already been supplied by IBE.
    Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he gets a pass. In fact, part of getting a PhD is defending your thesis against rigorous attacks. This report is riddled with errors, but the guy who wrote it should be able to explain them.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    Very suspicious, are you really trying to argue with a forensic toxicologist with a PHD. If you have questions, why don't you call the doctor himself and clarify his findings instead of giving your opinion as to why you feel he is incorrect? He does charge a consultation fee, but if you are that interested in exploring further I am sure you won't mind adding to the series of data that has already been supplied by IBE.
    Exactly what I was going to post!! Good post.


    Not to mention the fact it is LC not GC.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he gets a pass. In fact, part of getting a PhD is defending your thesis against rigorous attacks. This report is riddled with errors, but the guy who wrote it should be able to explain them.
    so call him and argue with him....? I bet IBE will give you the number if you are so inclined.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Exactly what I was going to post!! Good post.
    Said the IBE employee to his boss. But I digress.

    Not to mention the fact it is LC not GC.
    Doesn't matter. This paper is still full of discrepancies.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-28-2004, 04:35 PM
  2. 4AD versus testosterone
    By supersoldier in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-24-2003, 10:09 AM
  3. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-17-2003, 03:05 PM
  4. t1 pro Versus Super one plus
    By sctxms in forum Supplements
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-13-2003, 12:01 PM
  5. 1 ad versus 1 test.........
    By noob in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-29-2002, 02:06 PM
Log in
Log in