Havoc/Epistane are derivatives of..

P4D2A022

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what? i know superdrol is methyl masteron, but what the hell is havoc/epistane??
 

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what? i know superdrol is methyl masteron, but what the hell is havoc/epistane??
Add a 17a methyl to Masteron you get Superdrol.
Add a 17a methyl to Epitiostanol you get Epistane.
Epitiostanol/Thiodrol is a drug used for treating breast cancer that the NCI database lists as being a potent estrogen antagonist and and androgen agonist as well as a very strong anabolic.

NCI's biological activity spectrum predictions list Epitiostanol as being a stronger estrogen antagonist than Tamoxifen (nolvadex) and even a mild aromatase inhibitor. The info is available on the NCI database.
 
yeahright

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Add a 17a methyl to Masteron you get Superdrol.
Add a 17a methyl to Epitiostanol you get Epistane.
Epitiostanol/Thiodrol is a drug used for treating breast cancer that the NCI database lists as being a potent estrogen antagonist and and androgen agonist as well as a very strong anabolic.

NCI's biological activity spectrum predictions list Epitiostanol as being a stronger estrogen antagonist than Tamoxifen (nolvadex) and even a mild aromatase inhibitor. The info is available on the NCI database.

And that seems to conform nicely with the in vivo experience of epistane/havoc users.
 
yeahright

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Which is a derivative of????
17-methyl-delta-2-etioallocholane

I don't think this is a derivative of another compound. I think alri cooked this up themselves (or reproduced it from vida).

ALR: "Several years ago we were researching the ideas of alternative anabolic substances. We were looking for something safer and more effective than anabolic steroids or even prohormones. There was some pretty convincing research suggesting that specific pheromones had the properties we were looking for.

Later, when I was designing the products for a company called HM Gear we worked to patent one of the compounds, and later, after I opted to work under my own label only (Applied Lifescience Research Industries, Inc. or ALRI), I filed two subsequent patents on other unique pheromone matrixes.

The oral bioavailability of the first one sucked (and was to closely related to one now banned substance), though there does exist a great deal of potential there still. Perhaps in another era though.

Pheromones are naturally occurring and a few are very similar to some androgens. They exist in nature and in the food chain so are therefore quite legal. But as most will recall, so were most of the prohormones now classified as controlled substances. The BALCO labs incident is the main reason for that happening.

After we released Ergomax LMG, there was quite a stir in the supplement industry. The idea of using a unique pheromone matrix for extreme recovery was unheard of. But here it was, people were raving about the results, and we were very proud of the safety profile.

Of course everyone speculated what it was, and naturally a few swore they had it first - yet still could not identify the correct isomers and structure. This is evident in that the same few in the industry began speculating that it was actually the newly discovered, so-called designer steroid DMT (desoxymethyltestosterone). "
 
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Of course everyone speculated what it was, and naturally a few swore they had it first - yet still could not identify the correct isomers and structure. This is evident in that the same few in the industry began speculating that it was actually the newly discovered, so-called designer steroid DMT (desoxymethyltestosterone). "
so with said does that mean ALRI's ergo was not DMT but closely related? Thats what he sounds like he's saying, that people speculated it was DMT......hmmm
 
skull

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike McCandless
When they make epistane as a raw, they start with 2-ene

So then its basicly DMT-2EN with some antiestrogen properties added? and similar to pheraplex with the 2EN in common? The only reason I ask is because I have a bunch of the original pheraplex and I never used it because of gyno issues-- But EPI works great on me so Im wondering the same for pheraplex?
__________________

Thank you. Finally - someone not all hyped up making irrational leaps in logic.


Scull - it's a different molecule man. You have to understand that tweaking one part of a molecule can make it totally different in how you respond to it.
Such as - adding one CH3 to methanol means you won't die when drinking it (ethanol - in your beer). ;)
 
yeahright

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike McCandless
When they make epistane as a raw, they start with 2-ene

So then its basicly DMT-2EN with some antiestrogen properties added? and similar to pheraplex with the 2EN in common? The only reason I ask is because I have a bunch of the original pheraplex and I never used it because of gyno issues-- But EPI works great on me so Im wondering the same for pheraplex?
__________________

Thank you. Finally - someone not all hyped up making irrational leaps in logic.


Scull - it's a different molecule man. You have to understand that tweaking one part of a molecule can make it totally different in how you respond to it.
Such as - adding one CH3 to methanol means you won't die when drinking it (ethanol - in your beer). ;)


No, don't conflate the two. The topic had moved on to discussion of other steroids.

Epi is a breast cancer drug used in Japan. They added a methyl to it is all to create this product for bodybuilders is my understanding.
 
yeahright

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so with said does that mean ALRI's ergo was not DMT but closely related? Thats what he sounds like he's saying, that people speculated it was DMT......hmmm
I actually was getting the impression that he was saying that his "pheromone matrix" was actually something completely different but that people just assumed it was DMT because of the timing of when it was released. I could be wrong. If you google versions of your questions, you'll find some old cached interviews with ALR about his products (that's where I got the above quote).
 
yeahright

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So then its basicly DMT-2EN with some antiestrogen properties added? and similar to pheraplex with the 2EN in common? The only reason I ask is because I have a bunch of the original pheraplex and I never used it because of gyno issues-- But EPI works great on me so Im wondering the same for pheraplex?
__________________

Lot's of people like PP but from my observations I've never seen a product that had such a positive set of reviews/bloodwork as epi. This could change over time as more people use it but the gains to sides ratio for this product seems pretty remarkable. I've got a stash of other things as well but my next cycle will be epi (as was my last).
 
bioman

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Epi and PP are all that different in the gains department. PP does affect my mood quite a bit..not as bad as SD or M1T, but I can get pretty angry pretty fast on it. I get none of that on Epi. It's a nice smooth ride by comparison though I did have to stay on taurine because the back pumps got to be a pain. PP can also give me terrible shortness of breath, with Epi it wasn't as bad but still present.

Epi seems to act faster than PP in the strength department. Acne from PP can be bad as can hairloss. I noticed no acne or hairloss on Epi. PP can lead to gyno and puffy nips, Epi made mine smaller though I do not have gyno.

PCT from either compound is relatively smooth.
 
skull

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Lot's of people like PP but from my observations I've never seen a product that had such a positive set of reviews/bloodwork as epi. This could change over time as more people use it but the gains to sides ratio for this product seems pretty remarkable. I've got a stash of other things as well but my next cycle will be epi (as was my last).
I have only seen 1 set of blood work and I think it was LAKES- Id like to see more [links?]
 
skull

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No, don't conflate the two. The topic had moved on to discussion of other steroids.

Epi is a breast cancer drug used in Japan. They added a methyl to it is all to create this product for bodybuilders is my understanding.
Well there seems to be some conflict about this--[being made from DMT 2EN] DR D made reference to it--BK also --if you like I will find links
 
yeahright

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Well there seems to be some conflict about this--[being made from DMT 2EN] DR D made reference to it--BK also --if you like I will find links
That would be helpful because I don't believe this product is related to PP at all.
 
poopypants

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Epi and PP are all that different in the gains department. PP does affect my mood quite a bit..not as bad as superdrol or M1T, but I can get pretty angry pretty fast on it. I get none of that on Epi. It's a nice smooth ride by comparison though I did have to stay on taurine because the back pumps got to be a pain. PP can also give me terrible shortness of breath, with Epi it wasn't as bad but still present.

Epi seems to act faster than PP in the strength department. Acne from PP can be bad as can hairloss. I noticed no acne or hairloss on Epi. PP can lead to gyno and puffy nips, Epi made mine smaller though I do not have gyno.

post cycle therapy from either compound is relatively smooth.
:goodpost: thats bout how i feel about them too, great commparitive reveiw.

although id have to say in the end PP ended upgiving more insane strength... but not TILL the end, epi was a nice progression throughout and also got rid of most of my gyno. def winner in my book.

i dont know that the 2 are exactly the same just with est blockig props added, its not that simple. theres prob many 2-ene compounds you can pull from vida, just as there are many test derivs, and DHT progestins and everything else. most compounds will share a same basic structure but exhibit a varience of one effect to maybe even a completely diff effect, depending on whats added to the chemical structure.
 
skull

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That would be helpful because I don't believe this product is related to PP at all.
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page 17 -"IBE is in trouble thread"




Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it.
 
yeahright

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page 17 -"IBE is in trouble thread"




Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it.

That doesn't mean that epi is just a tweak on PP. Almost all androgens share core structures. I could be wrong but I believe you're getting confused by the language being used here.
 
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According to Anabolics 2007, Methepitiostane is derived from DHT(Dihydrotestosterone).
 
poopypants

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page 17 -"IBE is in trouble thread"




Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it.
thats in reference to a breaking down comopound not building it up. i highly doubt they "start" with raw 2ene as MM says and then go from there, the ending basic structure is still prob the same though like most structures share the basic structure of test..... im being redundant now. although i could be completely wrong, thats just what makes sense to me.
 
kwyckemynd00

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thats in reference to a breaking down comopound not building it up. i highly doubt they "start" with raw 2ene as MM says and then go from there, the ending basic structure is still prob the same though like most structures share the basic structure of test..... im being redundant now. although i could be completely wrong, thats just what makes sense to me.
They could probably make Epistane from DMT (a 2-ene). In fact, it looks like it'd be a great starting material for it.

edit: The exact synthesis, however, I don't know. (I had an idea, but then I realized it sucked.)
 
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poopypants

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there you have it....

all this is done by chem houses in china/japan anyhow so who knows what course they take, prob the cheapest, quickest, most effective way to get it done and if raw 2-ene is easy to obtain and then manipulate then maybe thats how they do. anyone like D wanna let us know as they are more likely to have exp in researching/performing synthisis on this compound???

OOOHHHHH DR DDDDDEEEEEEEEEE-EEEEEEEE
 
kwyckemynd00

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Note: I don't actually know if perthios act like peracids. In fact, as I think about it, they just may not. I was thinking they were something they weren't :D

But, it would seem you could make it from DMT pretty easily.
 
kwyckemynd00

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Raw DMT (2-ene) probably isn't easy to attain legally b/c its a scheduled drug. Well, maybe for big labs like that its easy to attain. But, def. not for chemists who just wanna "try" a synthesis.
 
poopypants

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thats the way i figured it too, and with the all the huge commotion MM caused he provided some usefull insight to the inner workings of most comps trying to create a novel compound.

he mentioned that while one person could be sittin here trying to synthisize something their own way then send the compound to the chem houses with the finished structure and the synthisis process used the way most/he would go about it would be to just send a chem structure desired to the chem house as they will go most likely go about their own methods of creating it (whatever is easy, cheap, known to produce best yeild) in the end and youll be out the time and money you spent doing the leg work yourself..... did you catch that part of that convo?

so who knows if even D knows the way its ACTUALLY put together since in the end its up to the chem house??? although im sure hed know a very viable way of doing so.
 
kwyckemynd00

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Yeah, exactly. The way a small chemist in the US could legally go about actually completing the synthesis would be much different that what the Chinese company would probably go about it.
 

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