Liver safety of toremifene vs. tamoxifen

[max silver]

It seems that general consensus on this board is that toremifene citrate is a safer compound than tamoxifen citrate, however I've never seen any kind of substantive information to back this up. I've done a bit of research on my own, and found the results of 3 major clinical trials. Upon reading the results of these trials, it becomes apparent that toremifene really isn't any safer than tamoxifen, in fact the results of the North American and Eastern European trials would indicate the opposite to be true, as a higher incidence of elevated liver values was indicated in both trials.

Fareston Side Effects, and Drug Interactions - Toremifene - RxList Monographs

The North American trial also indicates a higher incidence of ocular side effects. While I don't know how long these trials lasted, it is still prudent to keep in mind that both tamoxifen and toremifene are powerful drugs with can negatively affect the liver. Time between cycles is of utmost importance, considering how popular methylated steroids are, and given that these methylated steroids raise liver enzyme values as well.

 

[Travis]

I've never done a cycle (still researching), but is their a general guidline on timing between cycles? I've read the cycle length + PCT multiplied by 2 for a minimum?

 

[mmowry]

This is from the above link.

The incidence reflects the toxicities that were considered by the investigator to be drug related or possible drug related

That sounds like a guess to me.Also how long were these studies and who is using 200+mg Torem for this unknown duration?

After using Torem theres NO WAY Ill go back to Tamox.

 

[max silver]

Actually amounts used in the study are 60 mg fareston and 20 mg tamoxifen. From further review I see that the study was run for about 5 months in most cases, much longer than most people on this board would be running it of course. Perhaps mg for mg torimifene is less toxic, however.

I'm not saying anything as to the effectiveness of toremifene, all I've seen is astoundingly positive feedback. I'm just pointing out the fact that it isn't really any safer than tamoxifen for those individuals making their pct choice based on the safety of the product. They would both appear to be similarly capable of serious side effects.

 

[Jmuls]

Actually amounts used in the study are 60 mg fareston and 20 mg tamoxifen. From further review I see that the study was run for about 5 months in most cases, much longer than most people on this board would be running it of course. Perhaps mg for mg torimifene is less toxic, however.

I'm not saying anything as to the effectiveness of toremifene, all I've seen is astoundingly positive feedback. I'm just pointing out the fact that it isn't really any safer than tamoxifen for those individuals making their post cycle therapy choice based on the safety of the product. They would both appear to be similarly capable of serious side effects.

I like what you're presenting here MS, because I've been wondering the same thing. We've seen a tremendous amount of positive feedback with Toremifene, with regards to short PCTs and bouncing back quickly, yet its impact on liver health seems to be based of mostly speculation at this point.

Now please don't be quick to come down on me here. I want to believe the hype just as much as the next guy here, but I want to know there's some sound, concrete evidence to support this hype (with regards to lesser toxicity). Just as soon as I see some literature on Toremifene confirming what's being said, I'll be the first one to advocate its use!

 

[Skye]

good topic

 

[T-Bone]

I like what you're presenting here MS, because I've been wondering the same thing. We've seen a tremendous amount of positive feedback with Toremifene, with regards to short PCTs and bouncing back quickly, yet its impact on liver health seems to be based of mostly speculation at this point.

Now please don't be quick to come down on me here. I want to believe the hype just as much as the next guy here, but I want to know there's some sound, concrete evidence to support this hype (with regards to lesser toxicity). Just as soon as I see some literature on Toremifene confirming what's being said, I'll be the first one to advocate its use!

Good point. You can't just take someones world for it when it comes to the health of a very vital organ. There is already a lot of stress on the liver from all the work it has to do for you.


The Human Liver

The Human Liver: function, body location, disease of, picture, shape


http://www.janis7hepc.com/Nutrition/How%20the%20Liver%20Works.htm


Here is a key point quoted from the above link,

The liver is unique among the body's vital organs in that it can regenerate, or grow back, cells that have been destroyed by some short-term injury or disease. But if the liver is damaged repeatedly over a long period of time, it may undergo irreversible changes that permanently interfere with function.

 

[Enigma76]

Something to ponder:

Going on a drinking bender really isnt going to do any permenant harm to the liver or the body.

However, drinking over a longterm period will produce significant detrimental effects to the liver and the body (trust me, been there done that).



Along the same lines, if you can get done with PCT quicker with tor than tam, shouldnt it be better in the long run? The liver is a miraculous organ with pretty good regenerative qualities (I think the only organ with regenerative qualities, no?); in my mind, I would rather shorten the duration of the risk rather than shorten the amplitude of the risk.


However, this is all speculative assuming that tor is somewhat near tam in regards to liver toxicity. In addition, it assumes that people would reduce their PCT with tor because of a faster recovery.

 

[supersoldier]

Sadly I did not conduct liver enzyme tests w/ my torem blood work.

Shame:sad:

 

[Jmuls]

Sadly I did not conduct liver enzyme tests w/ my torem blood work.

Shame:sad:

Well perhaps someone out there is willing to get some blood work done at the end of a cycle and again after discontinuing Tor. Obviously someone could try Tor when completely clean and get blood work done pre and post. Yet I doubt somone wants to waste their supply of Tor purely for data collection purposes.

Soo.....any volunteers?!?!

 

[yeahright]

Nice discussion.