Deca

[jvb20]

ok well i added deca to my test prop cycle just wondering how long it will take for me to start seeing gains from the deca??

 

[WATERLOGGED]

i think 5-6 wks.

 

[stxnas]

Maybe even a little sooner. I used to work in a gym and knew a couple of guys that ran deca or deca/test. They were both newbs, but they were gaining around week three or so...I'm guessing it was a lot of water/glycogen though.

 

[youngstunna50]

i felt mine around the 4th shot

 

[motiv8er]

ok well i added deca to my test prop cycle just wondering how long it will take for me to start seeing gains from the deca??

How long do you plan on running the prop?

 

[doodle]

ok well i added deca to my test prop cycle just wondering how long it will take for me to start seeing gains from the deca??

my buddy is 2-3 weeks in, and he up 8lbs with strength increasing

 

[Skye]

ChemicalFitness

read this and think about if you really want to run deca with test prop

 

[motiv8er]

Hey Skye,

We cant see the article. Is there a chance you can post it?

 

[Skye]

this is about 3 years old and needs to be updated but it works

On using long esters.

This is for the new people and really anyone that is interested. There is a lot of misconceptions about what esters are, do and how they should be used. For the first two questions I have found no better article then this one Anabolic Steroid Esters by Bill Roberts Be aware that while there is a lot of truth to saying that “test is test” or that the changing the ester of the hormone doesn’t change it that is NOT entirely true. The properties do change some with the type of ester used. For instance Testosterone Propionate is widely believed (have notice this myself) to cause you to hold less water then an equivalent amount of Testosterone Enanthate, even if the Testosterone Propionate is injected every day and the Testosterone Enanthate twice a week. Another good example is Trenbolone. An experienced body builder might run 100mg every day of the acetate ester as a maximum but will not get away with running 700mg of the enanthate. So obviously the esters do effect how the drug works to some degree.

A couple of things about half-lives that need to be considered for the following discussion. First is that the actually esters themselves do not determine the actually half-life. The actual half-life is determined by the solution as a whole. The type of oil, amount and types of solvents all contribute to the half-life of a product. For instance the half-life of Testosterone Enanthate is said to be 10 days. However, by using a polyhydric alcohol along with benzyl alcohol and fast absorbing oil I can reduce that to about 8 days. On the other hand I make a solution that has very little benzyl alcohol and a healthy amount of benzyl benzoate with slow absorbing oil I can get 12 days or better. Testosterone base is another good example. Using a polyhydric solution it is absorbed in 12 hours or less, in a slow absorbing solution that can be made as long as 36 hours. That is the difference between injecting 2 to 3 times a day and once a day. So the manufacture (or how you made it) will make up to a 50% difference in what the actual half-life is.

As for how the longer esters should be ran, well that is as always, a matter of debate. This disclaimer if for the rest of the paper if I can call it that: All this is a matter of my opinion and does not constitute medical or any other kind of advice. This is all role-playing anyways. Also while I am on the soapbox please feel free to disagree and debate the information in here BUT PLEASE STATE WHY. By this I mean make an argument on the subject, don’t just state your opinion on the matter. Additionally I like studies and appreciate them but by themselves they do not make an argument. Your interpretation of them does.

First off it would seam that a lot of people are not aware of how to calculate the dosages they are receiving from a long estered steroid. The term “kick in” is often used to describe the build up period of the depot in the body. This build up period is a result of two things, one being the time the actually hormone needs to start working or for the body to react to it. The second is the time and doses needed for the depot to build up to the point where the amount taken is the same as the amount released from the depot. For the purposes here I am going to say that the steroid “Kicks in” at the point where 75% of your weekly dosage is released to the body from the depot.

The actually calculations are easy. The general form for doing this is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL). MgD is milligrams in depot, MgDL is milligrams in depot left, D is days, and HL is the half-life in days. If you’re mathematically inclined you can also do in logs but I am lazy and this is close enough. So say you took a shot of 800mgs Testosterone Cypionate, which has a half life of 12 days, on Monday, by Sunday you would have 800*((.5)^(7/12)) or 534mg left in the depot. That is 800-534=266mg that you actually got that week from that shot. If you took another 800mg shot on the following Monday you would (504+800) *((.5)^(7/12)) or 870 left in the depot at the end of week two. 1304-870=434 that you actually got to use during week two and so on. As you can see the long esters take quit a bit of time to get to the weekly dosage. Please note that the calculation for week two starts out with D being 8 instead of 7, hence the 504 instead of the 534.

edit on 4-12-05
Note on the math, there are several different ways to set up a spreadsheet for this and you will get different results depending on how you work it. For instance in the example above I used 8/12 to start week 2 as I counted 1/12 as the day that the injection taken, it is probably more accurate to say that it was 7/12, this saying that day one was the day after the injection and that the injection day was actually 0/12, or that one whole day need to pass to count as 1/12. This is the method I use know for long esters. However if your using one of the shorter esters while taking your shots in the morning the former might actually be better. Also it needs to be remembered that without taking in to account all the factors (many of which are impossible to find out) exact number are just aren’t possible. This should be viewed as a tool to estimate and plan with, and defiantly not to replace medical professional’s opinions.

That leads us to the proper way to cycle long esters. I can not count the number of times I have seen people suggest a Testosterone Cypionate with Boldenolone Undecylenate (test cyp/EQ) cycle. The problem is that a lot of people recommending this are saying 8 weeks. In my opinion this just doesn’t cut it. It takes 4 weeks for the Testosterone Cypionate to “kick in” and 6 weeks for the Boldenolone Undecylenate. This means that you would actually have only about 3 to 4 weeks at the intended dosage. That is including the natural ramp down of the esters. The below is the results of a quick spreadsheet I did for this. Sense the Boldenolone Undecylenate is the longer ester that is the one I will be working with. This is for 400mg a week for 8 weeks.


______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot

1 ____400 ______102 ________25.48%
2 ____686 ______175 ________43.68%
3 ____890 ______227 ________56.69%
4 ___1036 ______264 ________65.99%
5 ___1140 ______291 ________72.63%
6 ___1215 ______310 ________77.38%
7 ___1268 ______323 ________80.77%
8 ___1306 ______333 ________83.19%

As you can see you only get above 300mg at week 6. Please note that it take twice as long to ramp up as down so the minimum time it take for the Boldenolone Undecylenate to clear is 3 weeks. Now if we increase the cycle time to 12 weeks thing look a little different.

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot
9 ____1333 _____340 ________84.92%
10 ___1353 _____345 ________86.16%
11 ___1367 _____348 ________87.05%
12 ___1377 _____351 ________87.68%

Now we have almost 8 weeks at near the intended dosage. If you include week 13:

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot


13 ___765 ______195________ 48.69%
14 ___570 ______145 ________36.29%
15 ___425 ______108 ________27.04%
16 ___316 _______81 ________20.15%
17 ___236 _______60 ________15.02%
18 ___176 _______45 ________11.19%
19 ___131 _______33 _________8.34%
20 ____98 _______25 _________6.22%

And it might even look better if we ran 16 weeks. Please note that this is the same for any steroid with a half-life of 16.5 days. It does not matter. Swale has also said that

when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week

you should start your PCT. I believe that he means any repressive gear so you would have to include most any gear left in your system if you didn’t finish with testosterone.

The other opinion is to front load the steroid in question. This is the process of taking a great deal of the steroid during the first week or two in order to avoid having to wait for the build up to occur. As you might guess this is controversial process but it does work. For this example I am going to use the EQ again at the same dosage but this time I am going to front load 1.2 grams of EQ as 300mg ED for 4 days the first week. To make life simple I entered this as a single dose on the spreadsheet but the error this produces is small and not important to this discussion.


______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot


1____ 1200_____ 306 ________76.43%
2 ____1257 _____320 ________80.09%
3 ____1299 _____331 ________82.71%
4 ____1328 _____338 ________84.58%
5 ____1349 _____344 ________85.91%
6 ____1364 _____347 ________86.87%
7 ____1375 _____350 ________87.55%
8 ____1382 _____352 ________88.04%
9 ____1388 _____354 ________88.39%
10 ___1392 _____355 ________88.64%
11 ___1394 _____355 ________88.81%
12 ___1396 _____356 ________88.94%

Now as you can see this is a hell of a difference. No real ramp up time just the time it takes for the body to respond. This is also a good way to get the test flu, so be forewarned.

Below is a quick reference of the esters and there respective half-lives.

Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days

 

[jvb20]

How long do you plan on running the prop?

12 weeks maybe longer....

 

[BigTom]

Npp

You might want to consider short ester Deca NPP to go with Test prop. It would hit a lot faster than regular Deca. Fewer sides too.

 

[motiv8er]

A nandrolone base would be your best choice here. The deca really wont kick in for about 5 weeks. 7 weeks of growth, then you will need to continue with the prop at least 3 weeks past your last shot of deca. Not your best choice IMO.

 

[jvb20]

ok i might not stick with the deca then thanks for the advise

 

[BigTom]

A nandrolone base would be your best choice here. The deca really wont kick in for about 5 weeks. 7 weeks of growth, then you will need to continue with the prop at least 3 weeks past your last shot of deca. Not your best choice IMO.

The NPP deca will kick in around 5 days. Same as Test prop. It's a great combo. Do some research.
Just make sure you run more Test than Deca. And continue Test for an extra week or two past Deca. Never use Deca alone, unless you want to be called ol' noodle dikc for the next 6 months. I would run a 10 week cycle using the Props vs. enth or nands.

 

[motiv8er]

The NPP deca will kick in around 5 days. Same as Test prop. It's a great combo. Do some research.Just make sure you run more Test than Deca. And continue Test for an extra week or two past Deca. Never use Deca alone, unless you want to be called ol' noodle dikc for the next 6 months. I would run a 10 week cycle using the Props vs. enth or nands.

If you read his original post, it says he already added deca. Meaning our discussion is already bogus. He then says, is it a good idea? Anyone who is using test prop and then throws in deca with its 15 day half, obviously doesnt know what they are doing. So rather than encourage him to stick himself more, and often, I went with a less dangerous route for his personal safety. Transdermal nandy base.

I have no doubt that when you said DO YOUR RESEARCH you were no doubt speaking to him. Because NPP can do a major number to your HPTA in a short amount of time. So your next post for his personal safety would have involved the proper administration of HCG. Uber shutdown has been my biggest deterrent of using NPP thus far.

I believe in the synergy of Test P + NPP, but that is also an advanced cycle for someone who knows what the hell they are doing. More injections for a NewB isnt wise. Mixing Test P and DECA is a NewB move unless you are into pain and are a freak.

 

[Skye]

unless you are into pain and are a freak.

hey, my mistress will not like that!


other then that it is good advice as usual

 

[motiv8er]

hey, my mistress will not like that!


other then that it is good advice as usual

Skye,

I actually tried to put it into my sig you said I gave good advice. It wouldnt fit, but I teared up. Sniff.

 

[jvb20]

If you read his original post, it says he already added deca. Meaning our discussion is already bogus. He then says, is it a good idea? Anyone who is using test prop and then throws in deca with its 15 day half, obviously doesnt know what they are doing. So rather than encourage him to stick himself more, and often, I went with a less dangerous route for his personal safety. Transdermal nandy base.

I have no doubt that when you said DO YOUR RESEARCH you were no doubt speaking to him. Because NPP can do a major number to your HPTA in a short amount of time. So your next post for his personal safety would have involved the proper administration of HCG. Uber shutdown has been my biggest deterrent of using NPP thus far.

I believe in the synergy of Test P + NPP, but that is also an advanced cycle for someone who knows what the hell they are doing. More injections for a NewB isnt wise. Mixing Test P and DECA is a NewB move unless you are into pain and are a freak.

well i have test depot sitting around witch is 400mg deca 80mg test e and 20mg test prop in it i have only taking a half cc so i will just discontinue it for this cycle... how long are you suppose to run the npp??? and into pain eh not really just have a high tolerance for it so it dont bother me at all... cant wait to put more prop into me lolol