Long Cycles - Worth the shutdown?

BigMattTx

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I've been debating a lot recently over what to run next. On my first cycle, I ran Test E for 14 weeks. I wasn't very impressed with the results. I gained 10-12 pounds by week 8 but after that, I could not gain any more muscle. I pushed calories to around 4500 and ate super clean but I could only put on fat.

I sincerely feel like the last 4-6 weeks of my cycle were a waste. I like the idea of how long cycles will allow your body to acclimate to the new mass but I am starting to think shorter cycles would be better. I felt like all I did with the last 4-6 of my cycle was further supress my HPTA and put more wear and tear on my body.

I honestly dont have much experience...YET so I'm wondering if you experienced juicers could give me some advice.

Do you guys notice that gains tend to slow towards the end of a long cycle? Does anyone advocate shorter cycles for better gains?
 

same_old

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i've done cycles from 2 weeks to 30 weeks and everywhere in between. most people who run longer than 14 weeks or so will actually switch up compounds (including injectables). if test is the #1 guy, the effects will diminish after a while....for me it's about week 15.

i didnt notice any difficulty recovering after the longest cycles, but i use HCG, AIs and pharmacy PCT drugs. nevertheless, i probably wont go longer than 16 weeks any time soon, unless some fluke happens and i am still gaining late in a cycle.

i'm not sure i am giving any good advice here...probably not. bottom line is that a lot of guys are in the same boat as us - trying to work out what sort of cycling to do.

on a sidenote - i think it's very important to minimize the HPTA impact by good (read: conservative) androgen choices. deca, tren and anadrol are all lauded steroids, but they all bind to other receptors besides the AR (PgR, PgR and ER, respectively) and therefore cause more shutdown.... confirmed repeatedly by user feedback on these drugs. i think that by using AIs and sticking with androgens with affinity for ARs only, one can reduce the profundity of shutdown.

conversely, i've seen clinical studies where men using 300mg/week or less of test enan are making virtually none of their own T by week 3....but they werent using an AI of course. perhaps it's just the HCG keeping my system going, i dunno.
 
James

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Long cycles are the way to go for me. I really don’t stop gaining while on… I just keep getting thicker and adding weight… once that stops… I’ll bump the dose

Long esters take a long time to kick in for me… like test e and deca and I use them long term… I also throw prop in with the test e and I get better growth than the E alone
 
Skye

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Slow and steady win the race. That has been my general experience. In fact if you look at a lot of people who claim to gain 20 pounds a cycle, well as many times as they do that they should huge. They are not. That is in fact on reason that these oral cycle are bad IMHO is that they are short lived and harsh. Same old is right in that mild and longer are better.

On that note you may noticed that a lot of people stop gaining somewhere between 4 and 6 weeks and most everyone tells them to eat more when it is in the culprit (well, I believe this to be true, no real evidence to back it) is simple exhaustion. Your body can’t keep up that rate of growth and needs a break. On the other hand if you’re taking it slow and steady with reasonable dosages…

It should be noted that the above is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
 
pistonpump

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I was wondering the same after my first injectable cycle of 16 weeks...

Im beginning to think that an 8 weeker with short esters and an oral would be best. Ill just have to try that out and see next time.

Gains were not what i expected and many times i felt like i needed to bump the doses up higher but due to the preplanned cycle and the need to run the EQ for 14 weeks I couldnt do so. I had other problems as well if you read my log.

Now with all that being said I feel as though im recovered now, half way through week 4 of PCT after 16 weeks on cycle. Who is to say that a shorter cycle lets say 10 weeks or less would not need the same 4 weeks to recover?

Even with an aggressive PCT i lost most of my strength and im back to precycle weight again...Im not sure what i did wrong or even how good my gear was but I felt i had a well planned cycle, put in 4 months of time into it and feel like i would have kept more from an old skool 4 week oral only cycle. Not sure if what im saying is making much sense or whatever but perhaps some people respond better to shorter cycles and some to longer ones. I dunno but im trying to figure out what will work best for me. so, testprop and dbol is definately on the next list.
 
BigMattTx

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pistonpump,
dont feel alone man. my experience was about the exact same as yours.

I really dont like the idea of EOD pinning for prolonged amounts of time and it seems like switching compounds is the best to avoid a plateau. Heres a cycle I'm proposing:

1-12 Test E 750-900mg/week
1-6 Halodrol 50mg-100mg ED
6-11 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
13-14 Prop 100mg EOD
Adex .5mg EOD
HCG @ 500iu/week

This should have the best of both worlds. A large dose of Test with two different compounds stacked. Finishing up with prop so PCT can start shortly after the last inject.
 

same_old

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pistonpump,
dont feel alone man. my experience was about the exact same as yours.

I really dont like the idea of EOD pinning for prolonged amounts of time and it seems like switching compounds is the best to avoid a plateau. Heres a cycle I'm proposing:

1-12 Test E 750-900mg/week
1-6 Halodrol 50mg-100mg ED
6-11 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
13-14 Prop 100mg EOD
Adex .5mg EOD
HCG @ 500iu/week

This should have the best of both worlds. A large dose of Test with two different compounds stacked. Finishing up with prop so post cycle therapy can start shortly after the last inject.
just be aware that using tren late in the cycle causes problems for some users in terms of shutdown...granted, i think it's a sure-fire way to keep gaining, but there's a price. otherwise i like the cycle. looks like one of mine without the tren, and tbol instead of halodrol (why not just use the target hormone??)
 
BigMattTx

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just be aware that using tren late in the cycle causes problems for some users in terms of shutdown...granted, i think it's a sure-fire way to keep gaining, but there's a price. otherwise i like the cycle. looks like one of mine without the tren, and tbol instead of halodrol (why not just use the target hormone??)
thanks for all the help same old!

The reason I'm going to use HD is because I have two bottles of a clone sitting here. Its a great amount to run a 6 week cycle that gets up to 100mg ED and I've been wanting to try it. Tbol has very mixed feedback.

Do you suggest flipping the HD and tren so that I finish up with HD and start with tren? The reason I was not going to do it that way is because the test won't really kick in for a few weeks.

I really want to try Tren this cycle because all the other mass builders make you hold a lot of water. Plus, if I do well on the ACe, I can run Tren E in the future.
 

size

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My opinion differs form the majority here. When one considers all the +/- in relation to a cycle (health, gains, costs,etc) then I believe a shorter cycle is the wisest choice.

Admittedly, a short cycle is not going to yield the gains of a longer cycle. However, a shorter cycle is also not going to have as large a negative impact on ones health. It is a zero sum game to some degree where one has to sacrifice in one area to gain in another area. The decision then lies in what one is more willing to sacrifice for.

For many, the negatives of AAS are often ignored or made light of on forums. The reality is that AAS can have many side effects and lead to serious health issues. The longer one is willing to expose oneself to potential problems the more likely a problem will present itself.
 
swoody

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My opinion differs form the majority here. When one considers all the +/- in relation to a cycle (health, gains, costs,etc) then I believe a shorter cycle is the wisest choice.

Admittedly, a short cycle is not going to yield the gains of a longer cycle. However, a shorter cycle is also not going to have as large a negative impact on ones health. It is a zero sum game to some degree where one has to sacrifice in one area to gain in another area. The decision then lies in what one is more willing to sacrifice for.

For many, the negatives of anabolic steroids are often ignored or made light of on forums. The reality is that AAS can have many side effects and lead to serious health issues. The longer one is willing to expose oneself to potential problems the more likely a problem will present itself.

I'm with Size. If I can get in, get out and not be shut down very bad at all while making great gains, that equals perfect cycle for me. I ran a 6 wk high dose m4ohn powder and then a 3 weeker of superdrol... I was shut down pretty hard to say the least... I'm just finishing up another sdrol cycle (no nandrolones this time) so it was only 3 weeks and feel a HELL of alot better than the longer cycles. Nut size is still fine, libido is still great, mood is still great... I just think that the hard shut down isn't worth the gains, since I am making the same gains now as I did on the longer cycles but without HALF the sides. Get in, grow, get out, retain nut size:D That's how I like to run things anyway...
 

same_old

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My opinion differs form the majority here. When one considers all the +/- in relation to a cycle (health, gains, costs,etc) then I believe a shorter cycle is the wisest choice.

Admittedly, a short cycle is not going to yield the gains of a longer cycle. However, a shorter cycle is also not going to have as large a negative impact on ones health. It is a zero sum game to some degree where one has to sacrifice in one area to gain in another area. The decision then lies in what one is more willing to sacrifice for.
short cycles with 17aa's or short cycles with unmethylted orals, base TDs or base injected suspensions? the former kind of throws the argument out the window...a relatively long (say, 14 week) cycle of test/EQ with HCG is arguably not worse for you than 4-5 weeks of a harsh 17aa...a 3 week cycle? hmm, i dunno. there are just different risks i guess...with injectables you dont crash HDL and crank up LDL or screw up liver values like with 17aa's, but the damage you do is with you for longer...might take more time to normalize. as for shutdown, i think HCG changes the game - people who use it "properly" (if such a thing exists) can bounce back incredibly fast, even from long cycles.

like you said, it's a +/-...i could probably argue both sides, if one method worked far better than the other for me personally (but i like both, so no arguing needed!)

so what's the safest cycle ever?? 3 weeks of test base TD or test suspension? X number of weeks of EOD pre-morning-workout 4-ad or 1,4ad or maybe havoc/epistane/hemaguno?

MattHines - why would halodrol have better user feedback than tbol, when it converts directly to it? (i'm not being a smartass i swear) - do you think there is some other metabolite? i have seen very very few negative reports on tbol. what boards have you been looking on?

i'd probably use HD too, if tbol wasnt cheaper and just as easy to get (albeit illegal)
 
Skye

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I would have to agree with same old here. Running 600mg of test a week is has been one of the few longer term (not necessarily long term, just longer then others) studies done and has not produced any dire effects at all. Of course size didn't say what the short cycle he had in mind would consist of so....

even so then you back to what he said about pros and cons, this is one place that I differ from a lot of people when giving advice about first cycles, I don't think test only is necessarily the best due to the person losing out on the pros that other components brings. In other words if your going to pay the cost for doing it you may as well get the full effect / benefit. You should by all means use the least amount to get the desired effect but not less then that. I kind of think in the same manner for the length of the cycle, if you’re more likely to retain your gains then the longer cycle should be it. Then again it would not be the first time I was wrong.

All the same I know that everyone tends to be pro oral these days which is larger responsible for all the short cycles going so I am going to get on my soap box for a minute here, I can made the argument that you could run 2 grams of test a week and do better and still be healthier then what some of these oral cycle are for you. Some of them are not that bad (that we know of) but a lot of them are. And there is a price to be paid for them.

Sorry I will get off my soap box now.
 
SprtNvolcoM

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If anyone has experimented with cycles, cycle lengths, and compounds its me. I've tried them all; every combo imaginable. My best cycle was a Test E only 20 week cycle. I did hit a few plateaus, but a weeks rest from the gym, a change in diet, or tweak to my WO routine would often pull me out of the rut I was in. I was 210lbs at a fairly low BF% by the end of this 20wker. I'm only 5'9" and sport a smaller frame. 210lbs looks big on me.

Just as much as short cycle with fast acting compounds can be effective, so too can long cycles with longer acting compounds. To each his own. I will say, however, that with longer cycles you run the risk of experiencing more sides. Blood tests should be taken, doctors should be advised of your situation (if they will listen - I have trouble finding doctors willing to participate), and I believe hCG is honestly a must with any cycles over 8-10wks. Same Old read my mind here ... Because of hCG I bounced back from this long cycle faster than I had from many of the shorter 4wkers I played with in the past

Lastly, learn to listen to your body. Its important that you know what your body is saying to you at all times. & trust me, your body does talk to you. If you know how to listen, you will hear it.

Sprt
 
TeamSavage

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LH and FSH production recover fairly quickly (within a few weeks) even after long cycles. Test production can take much longer to recover, however, due to testicular atrophy. Take HCG, your testes stay healthy, and then even after a long cycle your test will recover in-step with your LH and FSH (i.e. much faster).

That said, if you're willing to deal with the negative health effects of orals, why do a long cycle when you can gain 10+ lbs on a 4 wk Superdrol cycle?
 

size

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In regards to my thoughts on short cycles, ideally they would revolve around base hormones administered via injection. With this said, I do believe that a long term testosterone cycle can be done very safely and effectively with mild to moderate dosing.
 
BigMattTx

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MattHines - why would halodrol have better user feedback than tbol, when it converts directly to it? (i'm not being a smartass i swear) - do you think there is some other metabolite? i have seen very very few negative reports on tbol. what boards have you been looking on?

i'd probably use HD too, if tbol wasnt cheaper and just as easy to get (albeit illegal)
I've read feedback about tbol here and at other boards. some love it, some dont. I already have two bottles of an HD clone that I've been planning to use so I'm going to go with it.

Also, I'm not so sure that it converts to tbol. I think it is just structurally very similar.
 
swoody

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short cycles with 17aa's or short cycles with unmethylted orals, base TDs or base injected suspensions? the former kind of throws the argument out the window...a relatively long (say, 14 week) cycle of test/EQ with HCG is arguably not worse for you than 4-5 weeks of a harsh 17aa...a 3 week cycle? hmm, i dunno. there are just different risks i guess...with injectables you dont crash HDL and crank up LDL or screw up liver values like with 17aa's, but the damage you do is with you for longer...might take more time to normalize. as for shutdown, i think HCG changes the game - people who use it "properly" (if such a thing exists) can bounce back incredibly fast, even from long cycles.

like you said, it's a +/-...i could probably argue both sides, if one method worked far better than the other for me personally (but i like both, so no arguing needed!)

so what's the safest cycle ever?? 3 weeks of test base TD or test suspension? X number of weeks of EOD pre-morning-workout 4-ad or 1,4ad or maybe havoc/epistane/hemaguno?

MattHines - why would halodrol have better user feedback than tbol, when it converts directly to it? (i'm not being a smartass i swear) - do you think there is some other metabolite? i have seen very very few negative reports on tbol. what boards have you been looking on?

i'd probably use HD too, if tbol wasnt cheaper and just as easy to get (albeit illegal)
I guess I should have clarified that short cycles of methlated compunds are the best... a long cycle of EQ and test would be fine... I guess I just don't like running long cycles of nandrolones... shuts me down too hard. And not to run long cycles of 17aa's goes without saying... almost all of the new designers should be run short, with the acception of only a couple...
 
BigMattTx

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I guess I should have clarified that short cycles of methlated compunds are the best... a long cycle of EQ and test would be fine... I guess I just don't like running long cycles of nandrolones... shuts me down too hard. And not to run long cycles of 17aa's goes without saying... almost all of the new designers should be run short, with the acception of only a couple...
I disagree. Short cycles of methyls can be very dangerous. Nothing gets you bigger quicker but orals in general mess up your body.

I dont think I would contemplate running another cycle that didnt base off an injectable.
 
swoody

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I disagree. Short cycles of methyls can be very dangerous. Nothing gets you bigger quicker but orals in general mess up your body.

I dont think I would contemplate running another cycle that didnt base off an injectable.
Depends on the dose, pre-existing conditions, having the right liver/cholesterol support, etc... I agree that orals are much harsher on liver values/cholesterol than injectables, but any compound when abused can have negative effects, and almost any compound used responsibly can be ok... it just seems that the studies done with long cycles of anabolic steroids carries much more health risks than short, reasonably dosed cycles... it just seems that running anything over 3 weeks could really slow down recovery, since the body's hormonal homeostasis catches up with really pumping out the estrogen/shutting down natty test even harder after about 2 to 3 weeks... at least that is what my bloodwork has shown... I just want to avoid being shut down too hard if I have my a$$ covered with all the essential cycle support supps... I wonder if Dr. D could maybe chime in and clear this up for me if I am wrong?:think:
 
BigMattTx

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I agree. 3 week cycles are real easy to recover from but honestly, thats not enough time to make some quality changes to your physique. The good thing about long cycles is that your body (bones, ligaments, etc.) has enough time to adapt to your new mass. Recovery is a ***** though.

I just hate how orals make me feel. After 4 weeks of a methyl, I start to get this feeling where my whole body just feels beatdown and unhealthy.
 
swoody

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I agree. 3 week cycles are real easy to recover from but honestly, thats not enough time to make some quality changes to your physique. The good thing about long cycles is that your body (bones, ligaments, etc.) has enough time to adapt to your new mass. Recovery is a ***** though.

I just hate how orals make me feel. After 4 weeks of a methyl, I start to get this feeling where my whole body just feels beatdown and unhealthy.
You do make a valid point here... injuries on longer cycles are much less likely to surface for this reason... personally I have made some quality changes to my physique in 3-4 weekers... nothing drastic (20+ pound weight gain being drastic) but sticking with about 10-12 lb increments... another reason why I don't run longer cycles is the hair loss issue... from what I have read it gets much worse as more hormones are converted to DHT and DHN the longer the cycle plays out...people do experience hairloss that are very sensitive to anabolic steroids in the beginning just because of the shock your follicles experience... from what I understand it is only later on (with that homeostasis issue again) that much more gets converted into DHT/DHN. That has just been my experience though. I have felt a little lethargy on orals, but thats about it... everyone is different though, so what works for one might not work for another... I would rather take feeling a little beatdown on cycle than feeling like complete sh1t for a couple+ months afterwards while my boys are trying to catch up:D Damn, I HATE post cycle therapy!!!!
 
BigMattTx

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Ahh yes, the dreaded lethargy. I have never taken an oral that didnt give it to me.

I felt incredible on Test E. Thats one big difference...the feeling of wellbeing is incredible. Conversely, on orals I feel drogged down and unhealthy. Either way, I think orals have their place. Nothing beats orals for quick gains.
 
swoody

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Ahh yes, the dreaded lethargy. I have never taken an oral that didnt give it to me.

I felt incredible on Test E. Thats one big difference...the feeling of wellbeing is incredible. Conversely, on orals I feel drogged down and unhealthy. Either way, I think orals have their place. Nothing beats orals for quick gains.
Reps for some good points for ya:D To answer the question of this thread though, it is my opinion that long cycles are not worth the shutdown... at least for me.

 
BigMattTx

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Reps for some good points for ya:D To answer the question of this thread though, it is my opinion that long cycles are not worth the shutdown... at least for me.

thanks for the input bro.
 

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That said, if you're willing to deal with the negative health effects of orals, why do a long cycle when you can gain 10+ lbs on a 4 wk Superdrol cycle?
personally? 12 weeks of test e is wonderful in just about every way imaginable (provided you've managed/abated risks according to your dispositions, be they MPB, gyno, what have you)...whereas superdrol makes me feel...well, not so good (i still love it, as the only superstrong oral that MPB-prone people can use)...lord, trying to play a sport while using superdrol is like trying to land an SR-71 in a bathtub...the pumps and exhaustion just make it impossible. and superdrol's gains are mostly glycogen, IME. i lose most of them when i come off, as opposed to long cycle gains, which i tend to keep.
 

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