Subcutaneous Depo Testosterone Experiment
- 03-05-2007, 01:26 PM
Subcutaneous Depo Testosterone Experiment
I was originally having this discussion here.
...but I believe that is the wrong place to continue it... I'm copying and pasting some information from that discussion here and will continue..
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada
Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement
has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide
variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,
its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated
the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and
September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving
10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.
Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for
41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL
200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior
abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated
to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.
Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration
is not officially approved by Health Canada. T
levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection
during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection
in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels
were measured however; the week 12 data are still being
collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T
was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit
0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During
the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in
pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l
(p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T
(25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1
(27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with
no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection
of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and
stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers
fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of
medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term
clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further
evaluation.Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: email@example.com.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients. METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study. Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported. CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.
PMID: 17143361 [PubMed - in process]
The day after, the area was a little pink and warm. The day after that, the pink spread a bit. By the third day, the pinkness was going away, it wasn't warm anymore - and the area was a tiny bit itchy.
Today, on the fourth day, the pinkness is almost completely gone...
I'm considering trying this again today (should be every 3 days) with .30ml into each side of my stomach.
There are four or five of us trying this experiment here at AM. "Crunch" did 1ml of Sustanon 250 into each thigh yesterday and all seems to be going well for him so far.
"Hotspot" tried .5cc of Cypionate into the side of his abdomen (in an area without much fat) but after 49 hours - he gave up due to a lump like a "bee sting" that was very sore...
I'm waiting on my next injection(s) because I'd like to see how Crunch is progressing - along with a couple of other guys who've tried this out (who we haven't heard back from).
What do you guys think in regards to the possibility of abcesses? Is injecting an oil-based steroid into subcutaneous fat asking for trouble? Even at .30ml? Dr. Eugene Shippen (a popular HRT doctor) has chosen this to be the method for his patients.. So how bad could it be without any report from him of problems?
I'm open for input. If I do continue, I'll be getting blood tests to see where I'm at in the new future...
Last edited by Zero Tolerance; 03-05-2007 at 04:46 PM.
- 03-05-2007, 01:45 PM
I'm still good about 24 hrs later. Just feels like a light bruise. I'm usually a lot more sore in the muscle the next day from IM shots. No lumps, no redness. If all continues well, I'll do another cople shots tomorrow a couple inches from the last two.
ZERO...good call moving this here. Maybe we'll get some more discussion and guinea pigs!
- 03-06-2007, 01:44 AM
Are there no replies because this is simply the worst idea anyone's heard of or what?
03-06-2007, 03:53 AM
03-06-2007, 05:48 AM
I'll throw my hat in and drop 1cc of enanthate subQ this evening. Tried it with suspension in the past but acquired a nasty infection from improperly filtered gear. Made me a little shy about trying it again with oil but hell, I only live twice.
Will report back.
03-06-2007, 08:12 AM
03-06-2007, 08:21 AM
I'm at two days now. The left leg bruise hurts a bit more, like a meduim size bruise. The right leg is perfectly fine. The thing is, I have very veiny legs and when I did the shots, I was cold. So no veins. I think I just went through one on the left and just got lucky on the right.
Tonights shots will be right after I get out of a hot shower, when all the veins are popping like crazy. I can find spots without. Should work well.
03-06-2007, 09:34 AM
Are you definitely injecting into subcutaneous "fat"? Do you have any fat on your legs?
03-06-2007, 09:47 AM
03-06-2007, 10:41 AM
Meh, wheres the fun in that? Imma go a full cc baby! If I can take a full cc of 1-test suspension, I am pondering how bad enan could really be with oil. If I can get it in a slin I'll consider splitting it but I have just enough of the big barrels to make it my 24 weeks and hadn't planned on a restock.
03-06-2007, 11:58 AM
i mistakenly got Tsusp in the subcutaneous layer before and it was really unpleasant.
perhaps someone can help me understand the idea here - HRT docs like this because of the stability as compared to weekly or biweekly shots, but what use does it have for recreational users, who inject no less than twice a week??
03-06-2007, 12:24 PM
Can somebody please help out with a question? If Crunch is injecting subcutaneously into basically no fat - what's happening? It's obviously not being injected intramuscularly and apparently not into fat either.. So where is it going? Just beneath the skin in between flesh and muscle? How will it be absorbed? I'm really curious...
Why are we doing this experiment? Personally, I believe that if there's ANY chance at all - of getting anabolic / androgenic steroids legalized - we need to get it's use more mainstream - legally...
Testosterone replacement therapy is becoming very popular. This is probably the reason for the latest raids where compound pharmacies are being shut down. Somebody is afraid that steroids are going mainstream because of HRT clinics.
Before I go any further.. 99% of people are afraid of needles.. Most people cannot inject themselves.. FORGET ABOUT IT when you tell them it has to be intramuscularly and FORGET ABOUT showing them an inch and a half needle!
Now consider diabetics... Slin pins are tiny and hardly intimidating to ANYBODY. What if steroids worked just as well - or perhaps even better - when injected with a needle that's hardly intimidating and that ANYONE could do themselves?
What woud happen? Anabolic / Androgenic steroids would go mainstream as a very high percentage of those ex-scaredy cats have no problem putting a tiny little slin pin in their stomach fat.
Does anybody see where I'm going with this? If I'm not explaining myself well enough (but you understand), feel free to modify my point so that everyone understands it...
Regardless of whether or not you believe it's possible for steroids to be legalized, you should not give up trying. Most of you are taking steroids illegally and breaking the law by doing so. As ridiculous as this is, it's a fact and you should do whatever you can to help change things. We're losing more rights every day and we just sit around and let them get taken away from us. There's a growing apathy in this country and it's friggin' ridiculous.
Click the link in my signature and add your input. That site will be getting plenty of traffic shortly and it'll be nice to have somebody besides stupid me with the only piece written...
03-06-2007, 09:35 PM
Injected 1cc 250mg/ml test enan next to belly button. Slight stinging sensation. Will report back with anything else as it develops.
03-06-2007, 10:50 PM
I've had absolutely no trouble with my subcutaneous injection but I'm holding off on the experiment for just a bit. I find it a little disheartening that we've had such little participation from at least some of the people who's intelligence in AAS I respect so much. I'm disappointed...
03-07-2007, 01:13 AM
03-07-2007, 01:20 AM
You're the second newbie to say that...
Why is it crazy?
03-07-2007, 01:33 AM
yeah, newbie that must be it. Well lets see, when you're 40% bodyfat like your sig you dont have to worry about beestings and ugly lumps screwing up your symmetry. Increased chance of problems, im lean. if i try and fold some fat and pin it its possible i can inject just under the skin and be looking at an infection add to that some ugly ass welts
Its a dumb idea, for most anyway.. I pin waterbase subq and still often get welts, id have to research but i imagine the only isnt properly dispersed when its pinned into fat either. You're looking at uncontrolled release from the ester, its random. say oneday you pin thighs, then stomach.. think the release time is going to be the same? You pin IM and even then the absorbtion rate will vary site to site
03-07-2007, 01:53 AM
03-07-2007, 01:57 AM
nothings wrong with me, he called me a newbie straightup.. i answered what he wanted to know, you be rude and you get it back
03-07-2007, 05:50 AM
The purpose of subQ is so you dont need to aspirate and dont walk around like you got something up your ass.
Most people are scared of what they dont know and weary of new things wich is fair enough, so its worth mentioning that 2 medical studies have been posted in the anti aging medicine forum about subq shots, doctors did a year long study afew years back and they had nothing negative to report, also one respected anti-aging doctor currently has his patients on subq shots.
They apear very feesable but of course we want to see it for ourselves. Just like with IM theres certain ways to go about it such as certain spots, deepness, needle size, I am sure theres things we need to learn about subq shots, and this is the thread for it.
03-07-2007, 07:16 AM
zombie and stvn take it easy and please don't clutter their thread with a pissing match. Whether you agree or not it's their choice to do this.
03-07-2007, 08:15 AM
Did my second shot last night into a non-vein area on my thighs. Just feels like a very small bruise again.
As for the first shots. The left still hurts, that's the one I believe went through a small vein under my skin. The first shot on the right leg is completely fine. Can't even tell exactly where I did it.
So far so good.
03-07-2007, 09:01 AM
I'm not saying you're a newbie to training but you're the second guy (in this small discussion) who just signed up to leave a one-line (bad idea) without at least an explanation as to why...
Now the whole "injecting just under the skin" is exactly what Crunch is doing since he's got almost no fat on his thighs.. That does concern me but I'm really not sure why.. I see people say it's bad but we haven't had any veterans come on here and really give any input. Just new people who we know nothing about (as far as experience) - and thus, the "newbie" comment..
It's human nature to feel more comfortable with advice from somebody you trust.. Nothing personal...
03-07-2007, 09:03 AM
03-07-2007, 09:08 AM
03-07-2007, 09:10 AM
Don't pay any attention to him ZERO. There are several research studies and a couple respected docs saying sub-q injections of oil based gear works.
I think HOTSPOT is getting some blood work done in a couple weeks, if he sticks to the sub-q injects. That would be the best evidence we have yet as to how this is working if his panels come back in our favor. So far I'm happy!
03-07-2007, 11:51 AM
03-07-2007, 12:49 PM
Slight redness, swelling and tenderness to injection site this morning. Feels like I got snapped with a towel or something.
03-07-2007, 01:09 PM
I have to say this is quite the interesting experiment...
Did anyone get bllodwork done to try to gauge absorption? What is the goal and how will it be known when it is obtained?
Are we just gonna gauge by suppression or gains? Or are we just seeing if absorption has any sides just from injecting and now gauging gains at this time?
03-07-2007, 04:39 PM
I think it would defenetly absorb, I think the problem is overcoming the redness and soreness.
If your doing something like 500mg+ a week, you would probly be better off doing daily subq injections instead of one big one.
03-07-2007, 05:55 PM
well i for one greatly appreciate what you guys are doing and i would join u if i was still doing gear but since the "man" got me thats off limits, but anyways im still going to pursue my continue research into cyclodextrins i still get pms from people on bb.com about it i think if more of us mess around with the stuff we would create a big jump in the methods of administeration, sub-q is no problem with cyclohormones and theyre even comparable to shooting test susp for instance.
03-07-2007, 10:00 PM
Swelling, redness and tenderness have increased considerably since this morning. Looks like I have a lemon under my skin. So far not so good.
03-08-2007, 06:46 AM
I'm about 36 hours post for my 2nd 2 shots. Both feel great, better than the first two as I missed the veins this time. The bruise that was hurting from the first shot on the left is now completely fine.
Thigh are the way to go.
03-08-2007, 07:28 AM
Does anybody know Dr Shippen, or how to reach him??
Maybe we could find out what's happening to his patients after their shots. If they're getting any pink or redness, swelling, bruising, etc...
03-08-2007, 08:32 AM
Anyone who's having trouble with this - 1CC of oil may be too much.. If it absorbs slower in fat, than I can see why there'd be a problem. There are times when I inject IM and have a lump for over a week. Now imagine that just beneath the skin?
Try much smaller injections.. .35ml in a few spots will be better than 1 full ml in a single spot...
03-09-2007, 11:21 AM
I'm still good with my second round of shots. There's nothing there this time, no bruise, lumps, or redness, it's been 2 1/2 days. Third shots tonight.
03-10-2007, 10:05 AM
Third shots late yesterday afternoon. Everything's fine again. I'm getting better at this. The last two were near the upper, top part of my thigh. That area seems to work well. So far my libido is just has high as ever.
03-27-2007, 11:12 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to know if anyone is still doing this? I am in the middle of my first injectable cycle and am having a hard time getting myself comfortable with any spots other than glutes, so I would be willing to experiment with this if people think it won't cause a problem. FWIW, I am in the higher bf% range (15-20 probably), so I don't know if this would be a positive or a negative in this situation. I am currently using omnadren 250 with an injection every third day. Basically, I am just trying to find out if:
1. Different absorption times between subq and IM will cause too many fluctuations?
2. If omnadren is going to be a painful shot for this situation?
I realize it's all conjecture at this point, I am just looking for some better educated opinions than my own. If there are no forseeable snags, I would be willing to try and report back
03-28-2007, 06:15 AM
I went back to IM. The only reason I could give is that I just wasn't feeling the same on the sub-q injects. I think I just like the IM better.
03-28-2007, 07:02 AM
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