Syno Test Dermal not working? Raising Estrogen?? Ahh!

[windwords7]

A trusted bro got a hold of me today and said that he and his bro converted syno to test made a dermal and added 1test. The breakdown was 3 bottles, each bottle having 5 grams test per bottle and 6grams of 1T per bottle. He used 10 squirts a day for 4 weeks and had blood work done. He was running .5ml letro a day.

His estrogen came back high and test levels came back a meager 5-10 points higher than normal. The guy freaked and stopped.

Any thoughts bros??

 

[Dwight Schrute]

When was the blood work done? During or after?

 

[windwords7]

During.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I wouldn't want specualte. I suggest taking it Nandi or SWALE at CEM. SWALE works exclusively in HRT due to steroid abuse so he culd give you an accurate diagnosis much better than I could.

 

[nandi12]

My first thought is that the elevated estrogen is due to incomplete processing of the synovex. Letrozole is an aromatase inhibitor. It blocks the conversion of test to estradiol. It won't block the effects of the estradiol already present in the synovex. You need nolvadex for that.

I'm guessing as well that because transdermal delivery is not as efficient as injecting, he is probably simply depressing his endogenous testosterone production, and replacing it plus a little more with the transdermal stuff, hence the only meager increase in test.

 

[windwords7]

Very good thoughts. So you need to get the Test up there in for there to be a more significant change. Shooting for 14-15 grams of androgen per bottle makes sense then.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I also thought of this but wasn't sure, especially since 1-test seems to be very suppressive. The thing I was wondering though is that the amount of estradiol, even unprocessed, isn't that large compared to the Test Prop (1:10 ratio). Would if raise levels that high in such a small amout? I'm not familiar with the dosing of estradiol but know its very potent.

 

[jweave23]

I've talked with him as well, we are (were) doing the exact same cycle. I've yet to get blood work done (hope to as soon as I get my benefits straightened out at work, lol) but our effects have been completely different it seems.

So far I've had every indication that it's working well for me, typical signs of test (some acne, libido and strenght increases etc). I'm using 1mg letro daily also. I was thinking something in the conversion, I know he used a different source of sodium hydroxide than I did. Stumped.

 

[Chemo]

There are a few points that need to be addressed:

• Did he show any signs of impending gyno before the bloodwork?
  If this is the case it may be that what the doctor considers "high" is actually a few points above his baseline.
• Did he have any bloodwork done BEFORE the cycle to compare results?
• What recipe or gel did he use?
• What was his procedure for the syno extraction?

Chemo

 

[Chemo]

Originally posted by nandi12
...I'm guessing as well that because transdermal delivery is not as efficient as injecting, he is probably simply depressing his endogenous testosterone production, and replacing it plus a little more with the transdermal stuff, hence the only meager increase in test.

With that concentration of test in what I assume to be a 240 mL bottle dosed over a 4 week timeframe the MINIMUM (i.e. - without special penetration enhancers) weekly dose works out to be roughly  250 mg.  Keep in mind that is test base and NOT an esterfied compound...but, agreed the dose may be somewhat lacking in terms of therapeutic levels (more so if he was a "big boi" with higher than normal endogenous levels).

Before I comment on this any further let's get those other questions answered...

Chemo

 

[nandi12]

The thing I was wondering though is that the amount of estradiol, even unprocessed, isn't that large compared to the Test Prop (1:10 ratio). Would if raise levels that high in such a small amout?

It's really hard to say without seeing the numbers from the bloodwork. His estrogen level could be "high" but only slightly so. Women on HRT only need a milligram or so of oral estrogen per day to maintain normal female blood levels, and with Estraderm (transdermal estradiol), 0.1 mg per day is adequate. That is not much.

 

[jweave23]

Oh BTW I also got more yield from my conversion apparently, around 5g or so per bottle (15g total). My details are here, higher test doses I guess, although he raised his number of squirts though:

http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5395

I'll try to get some more answers from him, but I know it was T-gel, and the conversion used was the way I described it in the thread I made, from Chemo with help from Wardog.

 

[windwords7]

Seems like it would be better to get the levels of test up a little more per bottle.

 

[jweave23]

his T level was around 820 or so BTW

no impending gyno

10 squirts/day, so...333mg test base daily (trans remember)

4 weeks in cycle

 

[windwords7]

The gel was T-Gel Chemo.

 

[windwords7]

Remeber my ONE+ cycle, my test levels went from:

My pre cycle count was 404

My post cycle count by a few days of 857

My last 3 weeks also included 3Alpha.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I'll see if I can be of any help.

First, a couple of questions. What is the pathway for 1T (I don't have much experience with OTC's)? Also, what is the pathway for conversion of the base into the final product for the transdermal? How is it estrogen could be produced?

If the E was high AT ALL with the AI on board, SOMETHING weird is happening. This is especially important because of the tendency toward increased diversion of transdermal delivery systems to DHT.

I think an assumption is being made here that much more of the deposited product is finding its way into the bloodstream than is actually happening. Remember, even with Androgel, we only count on 10% of the dose applied to the skin surface is absorbed into systemic circulation.

This is certainly an interesting case.

The 1T does not convert. Its actually considered a steroid and doesn't convert like all other PH's. It doesn't aromatize at all so there shouldn't be any estrogen present from that. THere was specualtion that it somehow, in someway, converted to DHT eventually but was never specualted on how or why this would happen. Structurally its similar to Primo.


The funny thing is even if you only received 10% systematic circulation then what reason would there be for his estrogen levels to be high, or even normal for that matter. He is getting some absortion or his test levels would be lower and he was using letro. Wouldn't that decrease his circulating levels just by blocking the aromatase?

 

[wardog]

IMO you have a few factors happening here. First being, if the conversion didnt go off 100%, you have testosterone propinate, which has much lower absorption, and you have estrogen benzoate. This would and could account for the additional estrogen in the body and the lower test #s due to less absorption.

Second factor is that absorption isnt what we thought it was, and perhaps not enough was getting absorbed to raise them significantly, just enough to knock down natty test.

Thisrd is simply not enough applied. But that wouldn't resolve the estrogen issue.

 

[Chemo]

Originally posted by SWALE
...What is the pathway for 1T (I don't have much experience with OTC's)? Also, what is the pathway for conversion of the base into the final product for the transdermal?...

What do you mean by "pathway"?

Originally posted by SWALE
If the E was high AT ALL with the AI on board, SOMETHING weird is happening. This is especially important because of the tendency toward increased diversion of transdermal delivery systems to DHT.

AI = artificial intelligence, right?  Tendency toward increased diversion what???

Originally posted by SWALE
I think an assumption is being made here that much more of the deposited product is finding its way into the bloodstream than is actually happening. Remember, even with Androgel, we only count on 10% of the dose applied to the skin surface is absorbed into systemic circulation.

You'll get 10% with just iso alcohol and PG...

Chemo