conversion rates

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  1. conversion rates


    using the handtransdermal calculator made by curt2go, i can easilly see that applying 400mg of 4-AD allows my body to abosrb 180mg/day. out of this 180mg how much of this is actually convered to its target hormone?? also is there another nice little spreadsheet that can figure out conversion rates, i looked and couldnt find one. thanks


  2. My understanding is about 90%, allegedly.
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  3. does anybody know if that above is correct or have any definitive answers. I know the 4-AD on its own has some anabolic properties but does anyone know for sure its conversion rate to its target hormone

  4. 15% is the number that's typically thrown around, but no one really knows for sure.

  5. ok, not sure what I was thnking of there, lol maybe I didn't read it right
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  6. Originally posted by jweave23
    My understanding is about 90%, allegedly.

    Can I have some of what you were smoking when you posted this ?

    Remember, IT lowers test and increases cortizol. LOL

  7. can you post those studies showing that pot lowers testosterone and increases cortisol. this is an ongoing debate in bodybuilding. i have many articles saying pot is harmless to bodybuilders besides the obvious cardio factor, and those supporting what you say. if you have any truly convincing articles id like to see them. thanks

  8. Originally posted by chi_town
    Can I have some of what you were smoking when you posted this ?
    I think it was so good I forgot where I put it now, lol

     

  9. 4-AD conversion rate to testosterone is about 15% , but you don't have that much to worry if you think this is a low conversion rate, because 4-AD due to its inherent anabolic properties plus its impossibility to convert to estrogen and/or DHT might be one of the safest steroids ever created and, at the same time, doesn't have much to envy to testosterone: it's 80% as anabolic as testosterone and 120% as androgenic.

  10. 4-AD can not convert to estrogen??? since when? 4-AD causes bloat, can cause gyno, it certainly seems like it converts to estrogen to me

  11. Captainbicept,

    I was jokingly saying that to jweave. I know its debatable by some, but most accept that it cannot me helpfull only harmfull.

    I am not that interested in this.....so no I do not have any studies......as my pot smoking days are way behind me. LOL

    PEACE

  12. Originally posted by captainbicept
    4-AD can not convert to estrogen??? since when? 4-AD causes bloat, can cause gyno, it certainly seems like it converts to estrogen to me
    4-AD by itself does not aromatize and converts to DHT at a very low rate. Its target hormone however (test) does to an extent.
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  13. 1. that 15% is based on how much test is produced within one hour after dosing. This does not prove that it's conversion rate is 15%, it could be higher or lower. You only know what was present in the blood an hour later.

    I also wonder if there is more aromatization than is commonly thought. It's pretty difficult to get supraphysiological levels of test from 4AD, yet the bloat that is commonly reported seems to indicate otherwise.

    Another interesting item is that despite a supposedly being more androgenic than test, hair loss is not as commonly reported as you'd think it would be.

  14. It doesn't take much estrogen or aromatization to cause bloat and genetics also have a factor. Some don't report any bloat with supraphysiological amounts of test yet others bloat up like crazy. You can't achieve supraphysiological amounts of test with 4-AD for any substantial peroid of time. PH's will not raise levels above your natural levels so this could also account for more side effects since that amount will be converted to other substances (estrogen, DHT, etc...)
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  15. Originally posted by Bobo
    PH's will not raise levels above your natural levels so this could also account for more side effects since that amount will be converted to other substances (estrogen, DHT, etc...)
    If you're referring to the 4ADs then I agree, but it's certainly possible with 3alpha and possibly boldione and 1AD (less likely though)

    As far as the bloat issue goes, I'm sure individual variation can account for some of it, but holding major water with test levels of 800ng/dl or less seems odd since that's well within the normal range.

    Not sure what that last sentence about sides is referring to...

  16. Possible but not for any substantial length of time and in no way comparable to the real thing. 4-AD bloat is no way comparable to Test in my case. Just because test levels are in the normal range doesn't mean estrogen or E2 levels are in the same normal range. It doesn't take that much in those levels (especially E2) to cause singificant bloat. THe last sentence means that once that natural level (with 4ad's case) is reached there is more chance of the target hormone (or 4ad) to be converted into something else (because of ph's weak ability to break that natural level) besides testosterone which could cause more side effects. Its just an opinion since as you've stated more side effects seem to be occuring than should be according to the chemical structure and attributes associated with 4AD.
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  17. Actually, I was stating that fewer androgenic sides seem to be occuring, but higher estrogen sides than expected.

    While I'm sure there's no comparison to bloat from test (btw, what was your dosing), there should not be much at all. Think about it, using test raises your levels to supraphysiological levels, while using androdiol may put your test levels only slightly higher than your normal levels. Yet the estrogen effects increase at a much faster rate.

    If you review some of the studies done on androdiol supplementation you'll see that in at least one case (there may be more) estrogen rose by a bigger percentage than test levels.

    Also it's entirely possible to raise DHT levels with 3alpha (transdermally)to what what you would get from shooting a moderate amount of DHT, this wouldn't drop off until you stopped using it.

    Finally, I don't see the reasoning behind this statement:

    THe last sentence means that once that natural level (with 4ad's case) is reached there is more chance of the target hormone (or 4ad) to be converted into something else (because of ph's weak ability to break that natural level) besides testosterone which could cause more side effects.
    I know you stated it's an opinion, but what are you basing this on? Once the 3bHSD enzyme is maxxed out the androdiol will do nothing but float around waiting to be converted or likely be converted into inactive metabolites through some as yet documented process. As far as we know all other conversions would be limited by the 3bHSD enzyme.

  18. Originally posted by Dio
    Actually, I was stating that fewer androgenic sides seem to be occuring, but higher estrogen sides than expected.

    While I'm sure there's no comparison to bloat from test (btw, what was your dosing), there should not be much at all. Think about it, using test raises your levels to supraphysiological levels, while using androdiol may put your test levels only slightly higher than your normal levels. Yet the estrogen effects increase at a much faster rate.

    If you review some of the studies done on androdiol supplementation you'll see that in at least one case (there may be more) estrogen rose by a bigger percentage than test levels.

    Also it's entirely possible to raise DHT levels with 3alpha (transdermally)to what what you would get from shooting a moderate amount of DHT, this wouldn't drop off until you stopped using it.

    Finally, I don't see the reasoning behind this statement:



    I know you stated it's an opinion, but what are you basing this on? Once the 3bHSD enzyme is maxxed out the androdiol will do nothing but float around waiting to be converted or likely be converted into inactive metabolites through some as yet documented process. As far as we know all other conversions would be limited by the 3bHSD enzyme.
    From what I understand the conversion is almost instantanious. And your basically saying what I think to be true. Maybe I didn't explain well enough.

    1. I agree that more estrogenic effects seem to happening because estrogen and E2 levels are proportionally higher than test levels being that 4AD can only convert so much. Once that conversion takes place the 3bHSD enzyme is freed to convert more 4AD(its instantanious from what i know but I definetly could be wrong here). But since natural levels are already reached (test) more is convernted into active or inactive metabolites (E2, 17 methyl E2, etc..not sure what exactly though). Those metabolites are extremely potent especially 17 methyl E2 and can cause estrogen related effects even in small amounts. Also since there is a natural control mechanism for DHT that converts back to 3-alpha this culd explain that more effects are estrogenic than androgenic. Small amounts of E2 and 17 methyl E2 are much more potent and would cause much more side effects than any DHT derivitive. That control mechanism for DHT seems to be tougher to break. This is also evident in Proviron since its a methylated DHT and still doens't really exert many androgenic properties.
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  19. I think the idea that 4AD may convert into some active (yet currently unknown) metabolites is interesting, especially since it seems likely that the same could apply to several steroids.

    However, exceeding natural test levels won't do much except suppress the HPTA -- the conversion stops because all of the available 3bHSD is occupied. Even then this would only apply at extremely high doses (I think Par posted a ceiling for 4aderm on bb.com a while back)

    I'm pretty sure though that 4ad cannot convert to E2 or any estrogen for that matter. Although I think it may convert to 4adione (there was some controversy on whether this happened or not a while back)

    Not sure if you were just jumpin between two ideas, but there are no estrogenic sides from 3 alpha at any dosage. I do wonder how much self regulation (conversion between 3alpha and DHT) goes on though, before it's finally metabolized.

    Interesting note on proviron, since I've heard repeatedly that it's both harsh on the hairline and good for the libido.

  20. whoa, whoa, whoa. PH's dont raise test levels beyond natural limits? i know a little about this stuff (ie, molecular structure, sides, conversion, etc, etc.) but i always understood that they would indeed do so, but not sky high. whats up with that?

    so, are u sayin that one would experience less gains from 4AD than 1-test?

  21. Its good for libido, I can attest to that. It will raise DHT levels to the highest they naturally can be so that could account for hairloss problems. Thats an area I'm not too familiar wiht. I think the idea is that the conversion is instantanious is which my opinion rests. I agree there is a saturation point but how long does that last? From different readings is seems in real world time its instantantious and is freed up fairly quickly. Usually test derivatives (methytest) aromatize heavily to E2 or 17 methyl E2 so my assumption that 4AD or target hormone or metabolites could even do this in small amounts IMO. If test levels are raised slightly over natural levels even for a very short time then this could occur also. I think we agree there are mechanism that are just unknown at this time.
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  22. Originally posted by Jergo
    whoa, whoa, whoa. PH's dont raise test levels beyond natural limits? i know a little about this stuff (ie, molecular structure, sides, conversion, etc, etc.) but i always understood that they would indeed do so, but not sky high. whats up with that?

    so, are u sayin that one would experience less gains from 4AD than 1-test?
    1-Test is a steroid.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  23. Originally posted by Bobo
    Its good for libido, I can attest to that. It will raise DHT levels to the highest they naturally can be so that could account for hairloss problems.
    Proviron does not raise DHT levels; it is a steroid in its own right. All effects that it has come from its intrinsic action.

    I think the idea is that the conversion is instantanious is which my opinion rests. I agree there is a saturation point but how long does that last?
    I'm not sure if conversion is instaneous or not; PA is not even sure. There are several possibilities for how 4AD actually works. It's possible that 4AD converts at a higher rate at certain (muscle for example) target tissues -- giving greater effects than blood levels would imply. I looked into this a while back, but couldn't find anything either way.

    As far as the saturation issue goes: when using a high dose transdermal, which is how most people would achieve saturation, it would be stay at that point as long as dosing was made constant.

    From different readings is seems in real world time its instantantious and is freed up fairly quickly. Usually test derivatives (methytest) aromatize heavily to E2 or 17 methyl E2 so my assumption that 4AD or target hormone or metabolites could even do this in small amounts IMO. If test levels are raised slightly over natural levels even for a very short time then this could occur also. I think we agree there are mechanism that are just unknown at this time. [/QUOTE]

    4AD is not a test derivative -- it's a test precursor so I would not expect that metabolisation to run along the same lines as known derivatives. Target hormones (test and maybe 4dione) could certainly convert to E2 and DHT.

    Definitely agree on the unknowns -- there's just not enough info out there. Although someone with a complete understanding of steroid chemistry (PA, Bill) could probably speculate.

  24. 1. Provirin is 1-methylated DHT and reacts in the same fashion. Should of said 1-methylated DHT levels. The control mechanism keeps it from reaching supraphysiological levels and the rest is converted back to 3-alpha until DHT levels are low enough for it to get converted back to 1-methylated DHT.

    2. PA doesn't know but also agrees its probably instataneous. I've seen him post that somewhere but this is also speculated by others.

    3. Well its more similar to Test than D-bol but D-bol still aromatizes into E2 and 17 Methyl E2 along with methyltest. I didn't say it was a derivative but its reacts in the same way AS test derivatives. If it reacts in the same fashion in terms of side effects, then its a good assumption, if what is happening is unknown. Like you said, the side effects suggest something else is going on. If its estrogen related, this could be it.

    4. With most of the PH absorbed within the first hour and the rest hours after that, saturation doesn't really play much of an issue IMO. Plus if conversion is instantaneous like most speculate, then its not an issue in my book. I'm more worried about what happens when natural levels of test are reached and what happens after that point.
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  25. Originally posted by Bobo
    1. Provirin is 1-methylated DHT and reacts in the same fashion. Should of said 1-methylated DHT levels. The control mechanism keeps it from reaching supraphysiological levels and the rest is converted back to 3-alpha until DHT levels are low enough for it to get converted back to 1-methylated DHT.
    Do you have a reference for this? I'm pretty sure any self-regulation of DHT levels (at least when supraphysiological amounts are involved) will come from shutting down test production.

    2. PA doesn't know but also agrees its probably instataneous. I've seen him post that somewhere but this is also speculated by others.
    I've seen him speculate the other way so this is pretty much a wash. I had a similiar discussion with him on 4AD over at bb.com

    3. Well its more similar to Test than D-bol but D-bol still aromatizes into E2 and 17 Methyl E2 along with methyltest. I didn't say it was a derivative but its reacts in the same way AS test derivatives. If it reacts in the same fashion in terms of side effects, then its a good assumption, if what is happening is unknown. Like you said, the side effects suggest something else is going on. If its estrogen related, this could be it.
    Could be, but this is a shot in the dark. Again, we know what it does convert to -- most effects probably come from conversion to test and possibly 4dione

    4. With most of the PH absorbed within the first hour and the rest hours after that, saturation doesn't really play much of an issue IMO. Plus if conversion is instantaneous like most speculate, then its not an issue in my book. I'm more worried about what happens when natural levels of test are reached and what happens after that point.
    I'm curious as how you can say this. Transdermals deliver a constant flow, which means once levels are saturated -- they stay saturated. There is a finite amount of 3bHSD in your body; once it's occupied no more 4AD will convert.

    Also, what's the obsession with natural levels of test and DHT? You're suppressing test production almost immediately, whether you go past natural levels or not (at least in the examples we're discussing)
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