Which oral doesnt completely shut you down and less likely to cause gyno?

[San Quinn]

I know a oral only cycle is not the best in getting huge gains. It seems after a lot of searching things seem to change over the the years so thats why I made this post to learn.

I am not planning to take steriods anytime soon but just doing some research since I know I am not ready. Basic stats
5"11 about 15% bf 200lbs looking to gain as much lean muscle as possible. I might have got some mild gyno as a teen so in the future I would like to try a oral only cycle thats less likely to cause gyno, doesnt completely shut you down plus less likely to cause hair loss. Maybe theres no such thing but from searching on here it seems these are the main orals you guys recommend
-Turanabol
-Anavar
-Primobolan

but how does 4AD compare to those?

TIA

 

[Sendo]

:gotsearch

 

[San Quinn]

It seems after a lot of searching things seem to change over the the years so thats why I made this post to learn.

:dance:

I tried but get different answers so thats why I am making the thread. Things change as time goes on. I have also read that Big Cats facts are out dated just like a lot of the post I read after searching. So maybe someone on this forums can share their up to date info on this matter.

 

[Skye]

I know a oral only cycle is not the best in getting huge gains. It seems after a lot of searching things seem to change over the the years so thats why I made this post to learn.

I am not planning to take steriods anytime soon but just doing some research since I know I am not ready. Basic stats
5"11 about 15% bf 200lbs looking to gain as much lean muscle as possible. I might have got some mild gyno as a teen so in the future I would like to try a oral only cycle thats less likely to cause gyno, doesnt completely shut you down plus less likely to cause hair loss. Maybe theres no such thing but from searching on here it seems these are the main orals you guys recommend
-Turanabol
-Anavar
-Primobolan

but how does 4AD compare to those?

TIA

They all shut you down, there isn't really any steroids that don't. T-bol isn't bad for an all oral but don't expect too much. you really should spend some time reading around here, most everything has be covered to death. Var is just too weak really and cost 10 times what it should, primo is a waste orally, lean gains and low sides but it is low on bang for the buck.

 

[bosco]

shutdown is part of the vocabulary of orals..

 

[CHAPS]

Yep they'll all shut you down

 

[same_old]

i think you guys are confusing shutdown with suppression. they are very different things. var and primo typically wont shut you down at normal doses. i dont know about tbol...based on some current theories about suppression, the reduced androgenic and estrogenic effects due to limited interaction with 5AR and aromatase due to the 4-chloro mod means the HPTA will not be hit nearly as hard as with dbol.

 

[BigMattTx]

i think you guys are confusing shutdown with suppression. they are very different things. var and primo typically wont shut you down at normal doses. i dont know about tbol...based on some current theories about suppression, the reduced androgenic and estrogenic effects due to limited interaction with 5AR and aromatase due to the 4-chloro mod means the HPTA will not be hit nearly as hard as with dbol.

Good post!

That was the impression that I was under.

In the end, there is no perfect steroid. Generally those that produce the best gains have the highest incidents of sides and those that are low in sides generally dont produce explosive gains.

 

[San Quinn]

i think you guys are confusing shutdown with suppression. they are very different things. var and primo typically wont shut you down at normal doses. i dont know about tbol...based on some current theories about suppression, the reduced androgenic and estrogenic effects due to limited interaction with 5AR and aromatase due to the 4-chloro mod means the HPTA will not be hit nearly as hard as with dbol.

Thats what I was thinking since I have read that some people dont get completely shut down off some of these orals like test e would. As I read here
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/24005-oral-turanabol.html?highlight=Oral+Turinabol
Everyone seemed to be really interested in trying Turanabol or saying it has low sides but good gains.

 

[San Quinn]

Ok I was searching some more and thinking about trying these MAYBE
For what I was looking for in my first post which of these would be best to take?

-Sports One 4-AD 100mg 60 Caps
Each capsule contains 100 mg. of 4-Androstene- 3, 17-diol (4-AD), very similar to 1-AD. Great to stack with any other Ando.

- 19 Nor-Andro 60 Caps
Each capsules 100 mg. of 19-Norandrostenedione

-Nor 4-AD 100 Mg 60 Caps
Each Capsule provides: 100 mg 19-Nor-4-Androstene-3,17-Diol.

-Diol XS 200mg 60 Caps
Each capsule contains 100 mg. of 19 Nor-4-Androstene- 3, 17-diol and 100 mg 4-Androstene-3, 17-diol.

Thanks for the replies everyone

 

[BigMattTx]

Ok I was searching some more and thinking about trying these MAYBE
For what I was looking for in my first post which of these would be best to take?

-Sports One 4-AD 100mg 60 Caps
Each capsule contains 100 mg. of 4-Androstene- 3, 17-diol (4-AD), very similar to 1-AD. Great to stack with any other Ando.

- 19 Nor-Andro 60 Caps
Each capsules 100 mg. of 19-Norandrostenedione

-Nor 4-AD 100 Mg 60 Caps
Each Capsule provides: 100 mg 19-Nor-4-Androstene-3,17-Diol.

-Diol XS 200mg 60 Caps
Each capsule contains 100 mg. of 19 Nor-4-Androstene- 3, 17-diol and 100 mg 4-Androstene-3, 17-diol.

Thanks for the replies everyone

Those are PHs

Number 1 is 4-AD, number 2 and 3 are 19-Nor and number 4 is a combo of the both. 4ad is pretty weak on its own and normally ran with something like 1ad to counteract sides. A typical dose is 6-900mg/day so a bottle wouldnt last long.

 

[same_old]

hmm, let's consider the "perfect oral" as this is something i have been considering for some time...notice my slant on it will be towards the MPB-friendly side....

1) not 17aa (the real culprit for cholesterol and liver damage)
2) aromatizes a small amount (you can debate that)
3) not 5a-reduced, therefore very little affinity for the AR receptors in the skin and prostate.
4) reasonably potent (too little and it's waste, too much and it's bound to shut you down hard, a la superdrol, anadrol, M1T, etc)
5) no pronounced on-cycle sides (libido loss, lethargy, insomnia, acne)

hmm....if M-TST were actually a high-dose methoxy-test product and not a 2mg something-or-other, it might be great. otherwise we have: M4OHT (17aa), tbol (17aa), MOHN (17aa), primo (tabs - 5a-reduced though

mmmm, if only i could get a high dose methoxy-clostebol or even methoxy-nandrolone....maybe methoxy-4-chloro-boldenone....or even a 19-OH-nor-diol might be badass

 

[BigMattTx]

HD would probably be your best bet. It is VERY close to Tbol and it seems to have fairly low hepatoxicity with good dry gains.

 

[San Quinn]

MattHines
Yeah I wanted to check out what some of the better PH's are and these are some of the older ones. They still seem to be around but also hard to find. Which makes me wonder if there fake or something else or I guess they still make them?

So out of all those listed you think HD would be better? Now when you say HD are you talking about Halodrol-50, can you even still find it online these days? I found CEL H-Drol a knock off which 2 Caps Equal 1 Halodrol-50 Tablet

Sports One makes good products right?
All of those PH's are made by Sports One and would think Diol XS 200mg 60 Caps would be pretty good since its 4-AD plus 19-Nor. I was worried that both of those combined might be too much for a first timer.

 

[BigMattTx]

MattHines
Yeah I wanted to check out what some of the better PH's are and these are some of the older ones. They still seem to be around but also hard to find. Which makes me wonder if there fake or something else or I guess they still make them?

So out of all those listed you think HD would be better? Now when you say HD are you talking about Halodrol-50, can you even still find it online these days? I found CEL H-Drol a knock off which 2 Caps Equal 1 Halodrol-50 Tablet

Sports One makes good products right?
All of those PH's are made by Sports One and would think Diol XS 200mg 60 Caps would be pretty good since its 4-AD plus 19-Nor. I was worried that both of those combined might be too much for a first timer.

I wouldnt mess with those old PHs. They are somewhat safer but they are a lot weaker (at least the ones you mentioned). Halodrol is what I was talking about and yes CEL H-drol is a knockoff thats available and there are others as well. Do some searching. Heres a great thread with bloodwork: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/49566-halodrol-50-hypothesis.html

 

[jmh80]

I don't know why people get so freaking caught up in "not being shut down".

 

[motiv8er]

Just do a td with a methyl and nolva for pct. It isn't that hard. I am more worried about my hormones being unbalanced than being shutdown personally. When your body re-hpta's, you never know what might be over/under produced. I tried to grow boobs on a sd PCT.

PCT is there to be your friend when you need it, like UBI.

 

[jmh80]

Yes - Ubi is everyone's friend.

 

[CHAPS]

jmh80 i agree what's the big deal it's bound to happen eventually even if your only using var or primo you will get shut down eventually. Some stuff will shut you down with in the first week though, like M1t. Just nail your pct.

 

[San Quinn]

Well I have a girlfriend that knows alittle about the side effects of steriods and didnt want to make it noticeable. And with shut down I am sure she might tell a difference in the balls turning into marbles lol

Like I said this would be my first time and never experienced any of this stuff so i dont know what exactly to expect. So what kind of shut down can I expect with HD? What would be the perfect post cycle therapy for HD? Would taking any other supplements help prevent shut down at all like Activate, Rebound Reloaded ect? Or would they be better to take during post cycle therapy? I have PowerFULL, NHA stack and some others already on hand. Also whats UBI?

Thanks guys

 

[jmh80]

Dude - with these PH's of late - it's not that bad.

Unless you have slightly bigger than marbles to begin with...



NO YOU WON'T PREVENT SHUTDOWN UNLESS YOU FLAT OUT DON'T TAKE HALODROL!!!!!!!!!

Just get some damn toremifene and get on with it.

 

[jmh80]

Rebound Reloaded + Powerfull sounds like a great addition to toremifene after a week of it.

 

[San Quinn]

Are you sure theres nothing to stop shut down?????







haha ok ok I get it, calm down :rofl:

Rebound Reloaded + Powerfull sounds like a great addition to toremifene after a week of it.

Are you saying take these a week into post cycle therapy? Wouldnt it be better to just take the NHA stack (Activate+Rebound Reloaded) since they work good together and both made by DS? What would be the perfect post cycle therapy for HD? Should I get Cycle Support also or is it not really needed? I dont know how toxic HD is?
Red Yeast Rice 1200 mg
Silymarin (milk thistle extract) 1000 mg
NAC 1200 mg
Hawthorn Berry 1000 mg
Saw Palmetto 300 mg
Policosonol 20 mg
Celery Seed Extract 150 mg
Nettle Root 250 mg
Idebenone 100 mg

 

[BigMattTx]

If you're worried about signs of shutdown, for me, SD has been perfect. I'm just about to end my 3 week run. No decrease in libido--an increase if anything and no loss in sexual function at all. No shrinkage of the balls either. Perhaps I'm lucky but it has been nothing but positives for me. The great thing about it is you can pack on lots of mass in just 3 weeks which is so short that shutdown should be minimal and recovery should be quick.

 

[BigMattTx]

As for your cycle,
With any methyl, I would recommend 2 servings of Cycle Support per day preloaded a few days and running it for the entire cycle/post cycle therapy (this should take 2 bottles worth). It is worth its weight in gold.

Also, PCT should include a SERM as the main means of restoring HPTA function. I would not run an NHA stack in PCT because Rebound will decrease libido in many users. I am just finishing up a superdrol cycle and my PCT will be Nolva/Restore by ALRI/Powerfull/Cissus/Creatine/Fenugreek. I plan on continuing to gain through PCT.

 

[same_old]

NO YOU WON'T PREVENT SHUTDOWN UNLESS YOU FLAT OUT DON'T TAKE HALODROL!!!!!!!!!

that's not true.

HCG has been able to actually INCREASE endogenous testosterone (ITT) during administration of exogenous testosterone (200mg/week of test cyp), whereas those on placebo were shut down to 5% of natty after 3 weeks.

i believe the study is on pubmed, but you can also find it on M&M

so, you can prevent shutdown.

 

[BigMattTx]

that's not true.

HCG has been able to actually INCREASE endogenous testosterone (ITT) during administration of exogenous testosterone (200mg/week of test cyp), whereas those on placebo were shut down to 5% of natty after 3 weeks.

i believe the study is on pubmed, but you can also find it on M&M

so, you can prevent shutdown.

That is 200mg of Cyp though. Very low dosage for a bodybuilder. I agree somewhat but for an effective cycle, shutdown is imminent. If you're on something that doesnt shut you down, imagine what you could gain on something that does!

 

[pistonpump]

to answer the original question, I would go with Anavar as being the least liver toxic and least HPTA shutdown (at least it would take longest) from what ive read.

 

[San Quinn]

Anyone heard of netnutri?

Ok for post cycle therapy I will buy 2 bottles of Cycle Support, take PowerFULL/Cissus and creatine.
I will only need 1 bottle of Nolva 20mg/50ct right? Or is there something else I should take instead of Nolva? I am alittle worried about gyno since I may be sensitive to it. I remember as a teen my nipples got kinda puffy and hard, well about 8 years later they still look kinda puffy but I am also wondering if its just fat (about 16% body fat) since I seem to only carry fat around my chest and stomach.

So now lets talk about HCG, I take it during the cycle right? Whats a good company, hows Higher Power M3 Muscle Bound or I also found Higher Power HCG Transdermal, 60ml ?

Thanks again to everyone for sharing your info and sorry so many questions its just that I want to be prepared. I will most likely start this cycle and log it in late November.

 

[BigMattTx]

Unless you're running a long, surpressive injectible cycle, I wouldnt use HCG. ...and Nolva will be good

 

[same_old]

Anyone heard of netnutri?

Ok for post cycle therapy I will buy 2 bottles of Cycle Support, take PowerFULL/Cissus and creatine.
I will only need 1 bottle of Nolva 20mg/50ct right? Or is there something else I should take instead of Nolva? I am alittle worried about gyno since I may be sensitive to it. I remember as a teen my nipples got kinda puffy and hard, well about 8 years later they still look kinda puffy but I am also wondering if its just fat (about 16% body fat) since I seem to only carry fat around my chest and stomach.

So now lets talk about HCG, I take it during the cycle right? Whats a good company, hows Higher Power M3 Muscle Bound or I also found Higher Power HCG Transdermal, 60ml ?

Thanks again to everyone for sharing your info and sorry so many questions its just that I want to be prepared. I will most likely start this cycle and log it in late November.

not to bust your balls, but you have ALOT more research to do if you want to formulate a sucessful and risk-mitigated cycle. this is obviously your first cycle and you seem to have no working knowledge of androgen action or real risk. granted, you have to start somewhere but sh1t, you dont even know what HCG is or how much nolvadex you need.

and MattHines - have you ever even tried HCG? not to be a **** but there's alot more advice being given on this board than there is experience behind it.

 

[San Quinn]

Its cool I hear you. You dont think a 2-3 months isnt enough time to learn how to "formulate a sucessful and risk-mitigated cycle"

Why do you think I am asking all these questions :think:
People seem to have their own idea what the perfect pct is and thats why I would like to hear everyones thoughts and Especially yours since you seem to know so much. So lets hear YOUR idea of the perfect pct

I have read a lot of people do this
wk1: 40mg Nolva
wk2: 40mg Nolva
wk4: 20mg Nolva
wk3: 10mg Nolva

 

[jmh80]

Same,
I was saying that on the premise that none of the people asking these type of questions have access to HCG.

But - indeginous testosterone should be shut-down regardless of HCG use, at least in my mind.
Post the Pubmed study if you'v got it.

San,
I'm not a fan of Activate. Try it if you want. I feel Powerfull is a better bang for your buck.

I prefer to wait on the anti-E's by a week (with a SERM only - torem). It's up to you if you want to start the anti-E on the first day of PCT with the SERM.

 

[motiv8er]

Same,
I was saying that on the premise that none of the people asking these type of questions have access to HCG.

But - indeginous testosterone should be shut-down regardless of HCG use, at least in my mind.
Post the Pubmed study if you'v got it.

San,
I'm not a fan of Activate. Try it if you want. I feel Powerfull is a better bang for your buck.

I prefer to wait on the anti-E's by a week (with a SERM only - torem). It's up to you if you want to start the anti-E o
n the first day of post cycle therapy with the SERM.

Powerfull must be pretty good because I really have enjoyed Activate twice. It has done wonders for helping me bring back both sex drive and me TEST-I-CLES.

 

[same_old]

Same,
I was saying that on the premise that none of the people asking these type of questions have access to HCG.

But - indeginous testosterone should be shut-down regardless of HCG use, at least in my mind.
Post the Pubmed study if you'v got it.

done.

Entrez PubMed

that was easy.

if you maintain that shutdown is inevitable regardless of pharmaceutical involvement, you will have to refute that study. its duration is short, and the dosages may be low-ish, but it appears to strongly support HCG's use nonetheless. with AAS less suppressive that injected testosterone (and there are plenty), it sounds like shutdown avoidance is entirely within our control.

San Quinn - your condescension is lost on me. run whatever cycle you want. like every other adult you've probably encountered in your life, i refuse to try and teach those who wont be taught.

 

[San Quinn]

same_old
I had a feeling you wouldnt answer the question about pct. Not sure where all that came from since I have been learning a lot from this thread. I know I still have a lot more to learn too which is why I wont be starting this cycle any time soon. I have thanked you guys and appreciate the advice so I dont know what you want from me?

I decided on Halodrol-50, 2 bottles of Cycle Support, 1 bottle of Nolva for pct along with USPlab's Cissus RX/PowerFULL stack, Creatine and maybe FENUGREEK.

Whats the typical weight gain while on Halodrol-50, about 10lbs maybe?

Thanks

 

[San Quinn]

Just a thought

Would taking half a HD pill a day for the first week be a good idea or bad?

The only positives I can see is that from what I read HD really starts to work in week 3 and still making good gains up to 5 weeks. Another would be that my body doesnt get hit as hard from a lower dosage at first.

The negatives would be that it might take longer to recover and more damaging maybe?

Anyone want to share their thoughts on this?

 

[pistonpump]

you might gain 7-10lbs.

you could half it the first few days but i dont know how, they are caps i believe and you have to recap it. not 100% sure tho' never had any HD.

People are making gains in week 3 because of normal dosing not the way you are thinking of.

When taking steriods because that is what these designer orals are, you have to be ready for the sides that come with them. You cant take steriods and not have risks involved, if you dont want risks then dont use them simple as that. Not flaming just putting this info out there for everyone.

 

[size]

Suppression, shutdown, etc??? I find this topic confusing in some areas.
There needs to be a general recognition that using anabolic steroids which all of these orals are, will cause some degree of HPTA suppression. Certainly, the level of suppression varies to a degree but this level is difficult to gauge in a satisfactory manner. The reality is that suppression is not absolute as 1 or 0 but instead there are varies degrees. However, one is still going to need to address the situation in the same manner so that normal hormonal levels can be reestablished. Consequently, I find it odd why one would even argue over which one to use.

 

[same_old]

Suppression, shutdown, etc??? I find this topic confusing in some areas.
There needs to be a general recognition that using anabolic steroids which all of these orals are, will cause some degree of HPTA suppression. Certainly, the level of suppression varies to a degree but this level is difficult to gauge in a satisfactory manner. The reality is that suppression is not absolute as 1 or 0 but instead there are varies degrees. However, one is still going to need to address the situation in the same manner so that normal hormonal levels can be reestablished. Consequently, I find it odd why one would even argue over which one to use.

i believe there is already something resembling a consensus on suppression versus shutdown. if, like the guys in the study posted above, you are making 5% (or even 10% or maybe 20%) of your natty test, you are basically shutdown. if you are still making most of your natty test (like in the beginning of most cycles, or on maybe a relatively low-dose masteron or primo cycle), then you may be suppressed but not shut down, and you are likely to recover more quickly, one would think.

as for hard numbers on this, you wont find them in abundance. lots of on-cycle total testosterone labs results show the exogenous test also, which renders it meaningless for this investigation.

 

[San Quinn]

you might gain 7-10lbs.

you could half it the first few days but i dont know how, they are caps i believe and you have to recap it. not 100% sure tho' never had any HD.

People are making gains in week 3 because of normal dosing not the way you are thinking of.

When taking steriods because that is what these designer orals are, you have to be ready for the sides that come with them. You cant take steriods and not have risks involved, if you dont want risks then dont use them simple as that. Not flaming just putting this info out there for everyone.

Well after reading threads from a few users some were saying it might not make a difference in gains if you started at a 1/2 pill or 1 1/2 pills for the first week. I am guessing they said this since after about 3 weeks HD really starts to work. So by introducing HD at half the dosage during the first week would extend the cycle to 5 weeks and could possibly give better gains? I have also read simular things about test. But I really dont know? Thats why I am asking for other opinions.

I understand about the sides but I was looking for a oral that gives the best gains while having the "least" side effects and HD seems to be what I am looking for. I might not even do this cycle till about 6+ months from now. So for now I am just trying to learn as much as I can.

 

[pistonpump]

Well after reading threads from a few users some were saying it might not make a difference in gains if you started at a 1/2 pill or 1 1/2 pills for the first week. I am guessing they said this since after about 3 weeks HD really starts to work. So by introducing HD at half the dosage during the first week would extend the cycle to 5 weeks and could possibly give better gains? I have also read simular things about test. But I really dont know? Thats why I am asking for other opinions.

I understand about the sides but I was looking for a oral that gives the best gains while having the "least" side effects and HD seems to be what I am looking for. I might not even do this cycle till about 6+ months from now. So for now I am just trying to learn as much as I can.

I see. From what i can come up wit his that 1/2 pill for the first week will just make PCT just a lil bit harder. I dont think it would have that big of a difference in gains either. Guess the only way would be to try. I think starting at a low dose for too long like a week plus is a waste. I start at the lowest dose for a few days to see if i get any bad reactions then go to normal dose. Not saying thats what you or anyone else should do, just my experience.

 

[size]

i believe there is already something resembling a consensus on suppression versus shutdown. if, like the guys in the study posted above, you are making 5% (or even 10% or maybe 20%) of your natty test, you are basically shutdown. if you are still making most of your natty test (like in the beginning of most cycles, or on maybe a relatively low-dose masteron or primo cycle), then you may be suppressed but not shut down, and you are likely to recover more quickly, one would think.

I agree with all of this, but I feel that one still needs to approach the problem in the same manner to correct the situation. My point is that complete suppression vs shutdown should not be the major focus, but rather, the focus should simply be on restoring hormone levels. The process will be the same for the most part in returning to normal hormonal leves with some minor changes such as possibly time.

 

[motiv8er]

AN extra steak a day is your best bet... For a two or three week oral.

 

[pistonpump]

I agree with all of this, but I feel that one still needs to approach the problem in the same manner to correct the situation. My point is that complete suppression vs shutdown should not be the major focus, but rather, the focus should simply be on restoring hormone levels. The process will be the same for the most part in returning to normal hormonal leves with some minor changes such as possibly time.

Good Point. Concentration should be on restoring natural hormone levels since either way you go, suppression/shutdown, you need to return to normal state.

 

[wannaBstud]

Ok I was searching some more and thinking about trying these MAYBE
For what I was looking for in my first post which of these would be best to take?

-Sports One 4-AD 100mg 60 Caps
Each capsule contains 100 mg. of 4-Androstene- 3, 17-diol (4-AD), very similar to 1-AD. Great to stack with any other Ando.

- 19 Nor-Andro 60 Caps
Each capsules 100 mg. of 19-Norandrostenedione

-Nor 4-AD 100 Mg 60 Caps
Each Capsule provides: 100 mg 19-Nor-4-Androstene-3,17-Diol.

-Diol XS 200mg 60 Caps
Each capsule contains 100 mg. of 19 Nor-4-Androstene- 3, 17-diol and 100 mg 4-Androstene-3, 17-diol.

Thanks for the replies everyone

Im new to anabolic minds... I saw this in a previous post. Are these that you are talking about the old school prohormones that used to be legal? if so where in the hell did you find them, Ive looked everywhere.

 

[same_old]

I agree with all of this, but I feel that one still needs to approach the problem in the same manner to correct the situation. My point is that complete suppression vs shutdown should not be the major focus, but rather, the focus should simply be on restoring hormone levels. The process will be the same for the most part in returning to normal hormonal leves with some minor changes such as possibly time.

size, the operative word in your comment is in Fuschia :dance:

the period immediately following a cycle is obviously extremely important...if you use more suppressive compounds like deca and tren, the time between cycle end and full hormonal recovery will likely be far longer than with less suppressive stuff. i think to focus on suppression is not a bad idea AT ALL. anyone who's done cycles with and without proper HCG administration will attest to that. the faster you recover, the more gains you retain, the shorter the time when you feel like sh1t and have to be on SERMs.

 

[pistonpump]

size, the operative word in your comment is in Fuschia :dance:

the period immediately following a cycle is obviously extremely important...if you use more suppressive compounds like deca and tren, the time between cycle end and full hormonal recovery will likely be far longer than with less suppressive stuff. i think to focus on suppression is not a bad idea AT ALL. anyone who's done cycles with and without proper HCG administration will attest to that. the faster you recover, the more gains you retain, the shorter the time when you feel like sh1t and have to be on SERMs.

Another good point, Im in a bind. Actually they are both important. Prevention and Restoration.

 

[pistonpump]

Im new to anabolic minds... I saw this in a previous post. Are these that you are talking about the old school prohormones that used to be legal? if so where in the hell did you find them, Ive looked everywhere.

Seeing how this is your first post you might be able to slide but you cant ask for sources to steriods or you will be banned. Read this: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_rules

 

[jmh80]

Same,
I can only say to your comment what I've seen Glenihan post.
He's said that he's "back" with just 4 weeks of post cycle therapy - after 28 week cycles of "strong stuff".
(Coming from a bloodwork prospective. I know it's only n=1 - but he's the only one I can remember commenting on something like that.)

So - how would taking just Primo or Anavar really change that?
You do a 1 week PCT??????

I'm with Size - just focus on doing the right PCT instead of getting caught up in the details that is degree of supression.
(I.E. See the forest - not just the trees.)