Annual gain both on and off gear?

noviceiron

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Not sure if this goes here, but I have been wondering what a normal annual muscle gain is for someone not using AAS vs. some who dose say 2 cycles per year. I know this is a tough question to answer not knowing training routine and diet assume both are average at best.

The reason for the question is that I have been at this steady for the last 3+ years. I train in my basement and last night I looked at myself in the mirror and thought I wasn’t near where I wanted to be. Being conservative with some measurements I took when I began 3 yrs ago vs. what I have now, I feel like I haven’t made much progress and last night had a total melt down… still very bummed about the whole thing… even thinking about it makes me mad and to be honest, just want to give up.

I am wondering if I have made unrealistic goals as to where I should be.

Brief history of my training:
I have run a traditional 4 day split and make modifications to it every 2- months. The first year, I tried to eat right and just lift to get in shape. Second year I got serious about putting on weight and used about 3-4 PH cycles. This last year, I took it up yet another notch and have done 2 AAS cycles. With all that I thought I should be at another place than I am right now.

If nothing else comes of this thread, maybe it can be a lesson on what not to f@#$ing do….
 

glenihan

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i'm sorry this is just an absolutely impossible question to answer and has to do with training experience, dedication, knowledge, and most importantly genetics
 
RenegadeRows

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Glen's right. Somebody on gear would gain more, but to talk numbers, theres too many variables.
 

tattoopierced1

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impossible question to answer. You could have a person using gear gain 14lbs, or no weight because of diet, and vice versa on the non use of AAS.
 

noviceiron

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I am so f*@#ing bummed.... I appreciate you guys responding but I thought there was a general rule of thumb. I thought I saw one some where but couldn’t find it… I guess I know why.

Like I said, been at this for 3+ years and per my calculations last night have only put on 30lbs… at the very best.

I was so pissed last night that during by dead lifts I dropped my bar on the rack and bent it. Not to mention I threw a lamp across the room and it shattered into a bazillion pieces. Didn’t finish my workout and stormed out of the house….

Tell me what you would like to know and I can describe my lifts, diet and intensity. Another frustration is that I have no one to discuss this with locally. I have very good friends but have to keep my supplementation in the dark. And when I do talk to someone about it, I can’t really talk about the whole picture…

Is it prozac to help fight depression?
 
RenegadeRows

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If you gain 1lb per week thats 52lbs per year...thats 300 pounds of muscle in only 6 years!!! hehehe.

Go to the butcher and ask to see 30lbs of beef, man. Its alot!
 

noviceiron

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I know 30lbs is a lot, but after 3+ yrs????

I would think (and maybe this is my problem) that an average bulk cycle (test/deca), could produce 10lbs (given diet and training were moderate in a bodybuilding sense). Then, lets say you did 2 cycles in a year... wouldn't that mean a 20lb increase with just those two cycles for that one year?

I realize that muscle gain is parabolic and that the bigger you get, the tougher the gains, but I wouldn't have expected to hit that wall so soon.
 
jminis

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Most people say they gained 10lbs in each cycle but they really don't. If that was the case we would have a whole lot of 300lb monsters out there. Most keep maybe 5lbs of solid muscle from a cycle. You need to examine your diet and training and go from there because at this point anabolic steroids aren't going to help you. Also no need to throw a lamp, letting your frustration get the better of you will not help matters.
 

size

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30 lbs of true muscle in 3 years is excellent. You should be proud of your accomplishments. Too many people seem to beleive that gaining lean body mass is easy. Quite simply, it is not.
 
Jayhawkk

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You ain't kiddin. If i gain 30 pounds I know for damn sure it ain't 30 pounds of muscle. It's hard to gain lean mass.
 

glenihan

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...jay ... not gonna lie a litte confused here

i was dead serious that 10lbs a year is phenomenal
 

tattoopierced1

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I am so f*@#ing bummed.... I appreciate you guys responding but I thought there was a general rule of thumb. I thought I saw one some where but couldn’t find it… I guess I know why.

Like I said, been at this for 3+ years and per my calculations last night have only put on 30lbs… at the very best.

I was so pissed last night that during by dead lifts I dropped my bar on the rack and bent it. Not to mention I threw a lamp across the room and it shattered into a bazillion pieces. Didn’t finish my workout and stormed out of the house….

Tell me what you would like to know and I can describe my lifts, diet and intensity. Another frustration is that I have no one to discuss this with locally. I have very good friends but have to keep my supplementation in the dark. And when I do talk to someone about it, I can’t really talk about the whole picture…

Is it prozac to help fight depression?
just keep at it. from reading your actions, i would not go on AAS...

10lbs a year is really good. bodybuilding is a marathon, not a sprint like Glen said.
 
Jayhawkk

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Doesn't matter what you post. the last thing I see on your replies is your sig. And by that I will end this with...


Shut up Glen. Ya bastard!
 

meowmeow

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noviceiron you need to come out of your basement gym and spend time in a public/commercial gym. You'll see youself in a whole new light...and you'll like what you see.
 
Rivet

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noviceiron you need to come out of your basement gym and spend time in a public/commercial gym. You'll see youself in a whole new light...and you'll like what you see.
Depends on the gym! Mine makes me feel tiny. But we also have guys who have been working out for 3 years as well and honestly I tought they had just started...
 
bpmartyr

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I wish I could gain 10bs a year. :(
 

CHAPS

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Impossible to answer but i can say for me it's been 20lbs per year for the first 5 years and now with gear i'll gain around 15lbs a year depending probably around 10lbs. All depends on my eating at the time and goals. Eventually everyone get has a much harder time putting on muscle.
 
CEDeoudes59

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yep its all genetics, where your natural plateau is for starters.
enter anabolics and the situation is even more gray, hundreds of different steroid stacks and responses to each.
 
dwass

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I just hit the three-year mark. Since I started lifting seriously, I've gained about 28lbs of muscle - that includes two 4ad/19nor cycles and 1 SD cycle. No doubt your diet and intensity are big parts of how much you gain, but looking at myself now versus where I was three years ago, I am very satisfied.

Why not post up some pictures? I know that I am seldom a good judge of my own physique.
 

mywetnightmares

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I know that I am seldom a good judge of my own physique.
Bump to this, Whenever I look in the mirror I think I'm small, but then people always make positive comments about how I'm a big guy so I dunno, post up pics.
 
Rivet

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Bump to this, Whenever I look in the mirror I think I'm small, but then people always make positive comments about how I'm a big guy so I dunno, post up pics.
This is true. I got told at the gym yesterday "You must be proud of what you have accomplished" when I was giving someone A.M. aproved tips . And all I was thinking was "What?"
 

nattyHST

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if you aren't happy with the amount of gains you have achieved you most likely need to look at your diet. specifically EAT MORE.

don't get too bummed though 30lbs isn't bad at all, but i am sure you could have done more if you were willing to put on a little bit of fat with it.
 

nattyHST

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Impossible to answer but i can say for me it's been 20lbs per year for the first 5 years and now with gear i'll gain around 15lbs a year depending probably around 10lbs. All depends on my eating at the time and goals. Eventually everyone get has a much harder time putting on muscle.
you either started out as a mouse or you are currently a house...which is it? what are the starting and ending stats?
 
Beelzebub

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Impossible to answer but i can say for me it's been 20lbs per year for the first 5 years and now with gear i'll gain around 15lbs a year depending probably around 10lbs. All depends on my eating at the time and goals. Eventually everyone get has a much harder time putting on muscle.
what kinda timeline we talking about here? 100lbs in 5 years. 10-15lbs per year afterwards. not calling BS, but i'm with nattyHST. what were the starting and ending stats?
 

THETEST

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there is no good answer - I have heard 30lbs in 3 months, and such. I think a good answer is this:
MORE IN 3 MONTHS THAN YOU WOULD IN 3 YEARS NATURALLY
by the way, I have a question for you - if I train real hard - when can I break the 6 minute mile?
Oh - stupid question huh? Yeah that is what I thought lol
 

stxnas

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you either started out as a mouse or you are currently a house...which is it? what are the starting and ending stats?
This is along the lines of what I was thinking. I have put on about 30 pounds in the past three to four years, but I started out at 135 (and I'm short too...5'8). Now I weigh around 165 and when I look in the mirror I still see the 135 pound guy (minus the :sad: sixpack). I'd be willing to bet that you are bigger than you think you are. You probably just have some very ambitious goals for yourself. Good luck on your quest bro.
 

peterson24

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the toughest judge on someone is yourself. I have been getting comments all year but I see the same person 4 years ago in the mirror even though I know I am 15lbs heavier. I try not to use the mirror or scale for my guage, I just go by my numbers in my big 3. helps me keep a lot more focused. the rest falls into place.
 

THETEST

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Peterson24 - you are so right!!!! And photos seem almost impossible to catch with the right overhead lighting - unless you are a pro. The gym lighting is great, and with a pump, it keeps me motivated - but catching it on film seems impossible - flatten and smooth right out. I also have been from 165 to 212lbs and back to the 180s. Shape and cuts are important and so it keeping the body fat % low.
 

glenihan

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This is along the lines of what I was thinking. I have put on about 30 pounds in the past three to four years, but I started out at 135 (and I'm short too...5'8). Now I weigh around 165 and when I look in the mirror I still see the 135 pound guy (minus the :sad: sixpack). I'd be willing to bet that you are bigger than you think you are. You probably just have some very ambitious goals for yourself. Good luck on your quest bro.
eh hmm ... 5'8 is NOT short
 

stxnas

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LOL, I saw that one coming. Next time I'll refer to myself as small, b/c at 5'8 and 165...well, I'm small...does that make you feel better Glen? I'll bet you have a pair of Sketchers too! Mine make me 5'10+. True story :icon_lol:
 
bpmartyr

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LOL, I saw that one coming. Next time I'll refer to myself as small, b/c at 5'8 and 165...well, I'm small...does that make you feel better Glen? I'll bet you have a pair of Sketchers too! Mine make me 5'10+. True story :icon_lol:
Haha, I would rather stay at my measly 5'8" as long as I am 175lbs. Once I break 200 i'll shoot for 5'10, lol. :D
 

CHAPS

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I was a fat 200+ lbs and i cut down to 170lbs and now i'm 281lbs at around 18% bf, which will be drastically reduced in a couple months. Honestly once i got my eating inline and hit the core movements i just gained size silly fast. I never really hit plateau's because i've always read TONS about lifting, supplements and nutrition so i was always testing new stuff out on myself, like sling shotting myself forward in progress by PURPOSELY over-training for 1 or 2 weeks then overfeeding and getting plenty of rest. I also wrote down everything i ate since i was 14, the biggest mistakes i made were overtraining and under-eating, once i corrected them then ya i just grew very fast. I was severly over-trained at one point then i cut back on volume and started eating like 5000 calories a day and i just piled on size like crazy i went from 170-200lbs in a matter of months with minimal fat gains. I did make the mistake A COUPLE times of dieting incorrectly and sacrificed lots of muscle to get leaner. I'm still figuring out my body when it comes to getting lean, which does suck. But i'll most likely hire Bobo to help me with that. Honestly though i can't say i'm the norm, my brother is the same way we just grow quickly and consistantly, but my brother is 5'10 so he can look huge REALLY fast whereas i'm 6'2 and need more mass to look as big. The biggest obstacle for me is just getting lean, i have to do lots of cardio yearround and really always be watching my diet to keep from gaining excess fat. I also think i put on size so fast because i was SUCH an overweight kid (we are talkin Jabba the Hutt here ppl) that i think the fascial tissue was stretched out allowing for fast growth, plus my body was used to having the extra weight on me so i probably had a higher set point for bodyweight.
 

THETEST

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I am 5'11", and was 212lb at 15.5%, and am not in the 7% range at 184lb. I would look much better at 5'8" for these stats. I am gonna need to be 5% at 200lb to compete for much beyond a local division. I think Height has nothing to do with it - it is more about being lean with mass, and propostion - balance across all the muscle groups - not just one or two. (my 2 cents worth)
 
Alexander

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LOL, I saw that one coming. Next time I'll refer to myself as small, b/c at 5'8 and 165...well, I'm small...does that make you feel better Glen? I'll bet you have a pair of Sketchers too! Mine make me 5'10+. True story :icon_lol:
Ah, a true man admitting to his use of sketchers(lifts). It always shocks me when I am around someone in a shoes on atmosphere all the time, and he is 2 or 3 inches shorter then me, then we go to the pool(barefoot) and I realize I am 4 or 5 inches taller. I guess I'd cheat too if I were "Glenihaned"(that's for Beelze).
 

noviceiron

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Thanks everyone for the post... sorry I haven't replied, I went into this funk and then took time off work for family coming in for the long weekend.

here are some pictures during the last 2-3 weeks of my last cycle (ended early last month). I am roughly at 260ish and 23-24%bf in these photos. As you can see, I am an endo. Hieght is 6'

When I started, I was about 188lbs and 15%bf (I think) I will try to get some pictures of me now, after PCT.

I think where my problem may be is in my intensity. Diet isn't perfect, but I think I am doing okay.

One thing I haven't done is track my strength gains and tried to improve them over a set time. This is one area I plan on improving.
 

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glenihan

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you put on 50lbs last cycle?!

man you REALLY need to look at your diet .. almost all of that is fat and water .. you could do that without gear .. have fun dieting down
 

noviceiron

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I should have specified... when I started 3yrs ago I was 188lbs. When I started that cycle I was 225. I put on about 30lbs. I have since taken 20lbs off and am down to 235-240lbs and around 21% bf.

Diet started clean, then I added some junk. I kept protien up... just ended up adding some junk food.
 

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