Gyno Question

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    Gyno Question


    Hey. I'm due for another shot of Cypionate (taking 300mg per week for 2 weeks and bumped it up to 450 last week) but I'm going to be a day late. It seems my nipples get a little sensitive the day before I'm ready for another dose.. Is that abnormal?

    Anyhow. My nipples are a little sensitive/sore and I "think" I might feel a lump forming - so I'm taking .5mg a day of Letrozole (starting right now). Am I on the right track? How long shall I continue this? Until the cycle is finished?

    Thanks in advance...

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    Yea, Letro should help. The only thing is it's gunna take a little while to stabilize in your blood, so give it some time. If I was you, I'd run .5mgs ed for the rest of the cycle & maybe even into PCT. If this doesn't help, then your gyno might be caused by something other than progesterone.
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    Thank you. Now in the event that the cause is by something other than progesterone, what might be the best course of action?
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    Well depends what it's caused by. If it's prolactin induced gyno, cabergoline at .5mg twice a week spread evenly should do the trick. If it's anything else, nolva should get er done.
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    I'm due for another shot of Cypionate (taking 300mg per week for 2 weeks and bumped it up to 450 last week) but I'm going to be a day late. It seems my nipples get a little sensitive the day before I'm ready for another dose.. Is that abnormal?
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    That I don't know about. My guess is that it happens cause the test levels off in your blood so there is a higher concentration of estrogen momentarily till you shoot. This probably raises your nipple sensitivity.

    This is just a guess though.
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    That's exactly what I'm thinking and looking for more opinions on. Thank you...
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    Is prolactin and progesterone gyno even possible on Testosterone? To my knowledge only tren derivitives could cause prolactin and only nandrolones could cause progesterone side effects.
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    I'm actually taking .5mg of Letrozole every day (2nd day now) so I hope I'm on the right track...
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    IF your on test cyp i would recommend nolva for gyno letro and cabergoline is more for progesterone induce gyno nolv will do better with estrogen induced gyno ie the type you'll get from cyp
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    i would also go with Nolva or Torem with low dose AI. That's from what i know. But i have a question. How much Nolva should he take??? some say 10mg some say 20mg, suggestions?
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    10mg should be fine. 20mg is more a "to be on the safe side" deal.

    Yea, I didn't think it was progesterone or prolactin induced gyno. I was just stating the different types of gyno & what treats what.
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    [QUOTE=xxtruxx1]10mg should be fine. 20mg is more a "to be on the safe side" deal.
    [QUOTE]

    Well dont you think that he should "be on the safe side"? I was moreso directing the question to mixedup if he could chime in on it or perhaps the infamous Dr. D
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    More isn't always better. I'm sure 10mg e/d would do it, specially if his nips are simply sensitive & he has no lumps.
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    I think I do have a lump on my right side so I just started with 60mg of liquid Tamoxifen Citrate - That should come out to about 40mg of actual Tamoxifen or so. Since this appears to be my first "lump", I can't be 100% positive that's what it is (I do have fat on my chest) - but I'm pretty sure about it.. I've had it for about 3 days now. So am I over-doing it with 40mg of Tamoxiden per day? Or no?

    Thank you for all the help so far!
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    Run 40mg for the first 3 days, then drop to 20mg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxtruxx1
    Run 40mg for the first 3 days, then drop to 20mg.

    that';s what I would do.
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    i would drop the ai and just use a serm. nolva i think would be the best. im not too sure about torimifene's effects on gyno. start off with a higher dose (30-40mg) for a few days and then drop to 10. No need to run 20mg once the gyno/tenderness goes away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazdecki
    Is prolactin and progesterone gyno even possible on Testosterone? To my knowledge only tren derivitives could cause prolactin and only nandrolones could cause progesterone side effects.
    Testosterone can lower t-3 and in turn raise prolactin so yes test can cause prolactin issues.. Tren is similar to nandrolone they are both 19 nors meaning that a testosterone molecule has been altered at the 19th position..
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxtruxx1
    10mg should be fine. 20mg is more a "to be on the safe side" deal.

    Yea, I didn't think it was progesterone or prolactin induced gyno. I was just stating the different types of gyno & what treats what.
    Gyno is Gyno!! It needs esterogen to form.. If esterogen is kept in check progesterone gyno is usally not a concern.... check this out!!!

    Progesterone induced gynecomastia? Don't think so

    I would like to cear up a few misconceptions about progesterone and gynecomastia.

    Their is absolutely no steroid that aromatizes into progesterone. The reason for this is that progesteron does not have an aromatic A ring. So toss that myth out the window. Tren? Deca? Sorry but it just doesn't happen.

    Now Tren and Deca bind pretty well to the PR. They are progestins in their own right without undergoing any structural changes, but their affinity is MUCH weaker than progesterone itself. Even more so when nandrolone is reduced by 5-alpha reductase into DHN. Their is a small chance of progestogenic activity that could aid in manifesting a mass in the mammry IF estrogen is present in supraphysiological amounts, without proper ratio to testosterone but I have never see a documented case of progestogenic gynecomastia. The reason for this is that the PR has two isoforms. The PR-A and PR-B. PR-B mediates stimulatory effects of progestins; PR-A which is bound with progestins or anti-progestins inhibits PR-B, and PR-A is dominant,. The response to progesterone is determined by the relative expression of the two isoforms.

    There is a direct relationship between the PR isoforms and steroid concentrations an this direct relationship suggests high progesterone concentrations, but this will induce the expression of PR-A, which represses transcription of PR-B, which in turn supresses PR function and progestin effect
    With initial administration of nandrolone or it's dirivitives, I could see an expression of PR-B but a rapid rise in PR-A will ultimately supress the function of the PR. IMO, you would need a high ratio of the two before concerns, and this is a bit more of a possiblity with the begining of administration. In this time of vulnerability, rest assured in aromatase inhibitors as progesterone is an E2 agonist so the utilization of an AI will help. I personally don't think the concern is warranted though

    Their are 4 combinations of hormones that cause gyno- Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin, and IGF. Nandrolone is a weak progestin, which agonizes the PRL, it also raises IGF. Progesterone induced gyno is not really of a concern given binding affinity to the PR and the mechanism of the two isoforms. The production of prolactin is a deffinate risk. Not only can it be an inductor for gyno along side estrogen, IGF, and pogesterone; this chance is increased as prolactn lowers testosterone. So you need to make sure to take proper precautions to not only keep estrogen in check, but prolactin as well.
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    Gonna make a new rule that all gyno questions have to be submitted with close up nipple pics and one hand behind the head and one hand tweaking the nipple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesdd
    Gyno is Gyno!! It needs esterogen to form.. If esterogen is kept in check progesterone gyno is usally not a concern.... check this out!!!

    Progesterone induced gynecomastia? Don't think so

    I would like to cear up a few misconceptions about progesterone and gynecomastia.

    Their is absolutely no steroid that aromatizes into progesterone. The reason for this is that progesteron does not have an aromatic A ring. So toss that myth out the window. Tren? Deca? Sorry but it just doesn't happen.

    Now Tren and Deca bind pretty well to the PR. They are progestins in their own right without undergoing any structural changes, but their affinity is MUCH weaker than progesterone itself. Even more so when nandrolone is reduced by 5-alpha reductase into DHN. Their is a small chance of progestogenic activity that could aid in manifesting a mass in the mammry IF estrogen is present in supraphysiological amounts, without proper ratio to testosterone but I have never see a documented case of progestogenic gynecomastia. The reason for this is that the PR has two isoforms. The PR-A and PR-B. PR-B mediates stimulatory effects of progestins; PR-A which is bound with progestins or anti-progestins inhibits PR-B, and PR-A is dominant,. The response to progesterone is determined by the relative expression of the two isoforms.

    There is a direct relationship between the PR isoforms and steroid concentrations an this direct relationship suggests high progesterone concentrations, but this will induce the expression of PR-A, which represses transcription of PR-B, which in turn supresses PR function and progestin effect
    With initial administration of nandrolone or it's dirivitives, I could see an expression of PR-B but a rapid rise in PR-A will ultimately supress the function of the PR. IMO, you would need a high ratio of the two before concerns, and this is a bit more of a possiblity with the begining of administration. In this time of vulnerability, rest assured in aromatase inhibitors as progesterone is an E2 agonist so the utilization of an AI will help. I personally don't think the concern is warranted though

    Their are 4 combinations of hormones that cause gyno- Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin, and IGF. Nandrolone is a weak progestin, which agonizes the PRL, it also raises IGF. Progesterone induced gyno is not really of a concern given binding affinity to the PR and the mechanism of the two isoforms. The production of prolactin is a deffinate risk. Not only can it be an inductor for gyno along side estrogen, IGF, and pogesterone; this chance is increased as prolactn lowers testosterone. So you need to make sure to take proper precautions to not only keep estrogen in check, but prolactin as well.
    Then why run Letro during a Tren cycle? Why not just run Nolva at 20mgs e/d throughout? Wouldn't that keep gyno from forming since you're keeping your estrogen in check?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxtruxx1
    Then why run Letro during a Tren cycle? Why not just run Nolva at 20mgs e/d throughout? Wouldn't that keep gyno from forming since you're keeping your estrogen in check?
    Nolva is a SERM not an AI like letro. Nolva will just block the estrogen receptor so free estrogen can not bind to it.. Letro will stop the aromatase enzyme from converting test into estrogen and will lower your total estrogen level.. And nolva will increase PgR in breast tissue and give more of the trens metabolites to bind to thus increasing your chance of getting gyno( IMO nolva is not a good idea with any 19 nor deca , tren ect for this reason).. Also letro has been shown to reduce progesterone receptors and thats the reasons I would use letro when using tren..
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    Hey Zero tolerance here is my buddys letro gyno reversal protocol . I have seen alot of success with people using this protocol .. Here it is if you would like to give it a try..

    I am posting this thread to help answer all of the questions regarding gyno prevention and reversal, the use of letrozole and other anti-e’s. I will go over everything in very simple easy to understand language. Also we are talking about estrogen gyno here, not progesterone (but using letro will stop progesterone related problems as well since it inhibits all estrogen anyways). Progesterone gyno will be enlargement of your nipple area, the actual aereola, not a lump under it.

    Let me make this first point very clear, as I state in my signature this is from my personal experience, so whether you agree with it or not is your own issue. I have helped many people with gyno and it has worked just fine for them as well.

    To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

    SERM – Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
    Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
    AI – Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
    Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

    Letro and your sex drive:
    Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

    Running letro to prevent gyno:
    If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

    You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

    If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

    This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

    It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

    How do I know if I have gyno?
    If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

    Running letro to reverse gyno:
    I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

    1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
    2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
    3. Not running any estrogen protection.

    1.
    Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
    Day 2: .50mg Letro
    Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
    Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
    Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
    Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

    2.
    Day 1: .50mg Letro
    Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
    Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
    Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
    Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

    3.
    Day 1: .50mg Letro
    Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
    Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
    Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
    Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

    *Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

    ** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

    Day 1: 2.0mg
    Day 2: 1.5mg
    Day 3: 1.0mg
    Day 4: .50mg***
    Day 5: .25mg
    ***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

    Letro and the estrogen rebound:
    With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

    This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

    How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Gonna make a new rule that all gyno questions have to be submitted with close up nipple pics and one hand behind the head and one hand tweaking the nipple.
    Agree!!! LOL!!!!! To funny man....
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    Damn mercedes, thanks for that insight.

    zero, I ran mercedes gyno reversal protocol & wow! Letro is truly an amazing compound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesdd
    Agree!!! LOL!!!!! To funny man....
    Thank you for posting the protocol in my thread! It'll be easy for me to find now, in the future.. It seems that my gyno is gone from taking Nolvadex.. Is that possible? Or has it just subsided for the time being?
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    most likely just subsided. the gland will still be there and has a likely chance of reaccuring. I had hard lumps in my nipps in like 8th grade or so and i had a flare up in one of them not to long ago. Nolva made it "go away" but im sure it will come back if precautious arent taken.
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    Yeah, I had those lumps in 8th grade as well - I thought we all get them.. They were very small, however..
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    I'm actually following the below regimen right now.. Since my Mother-in-law is here for a week, in the event that even while I'm on Cypionate, I have a supressed sex drive, nobody will know about it.

    3.
    Day 1: .50mg Letro
    Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
    Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
    Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
    Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

    ** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.
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    lets see how that goes for yah....good luck.

    Gyno is a b1tch!!!!!!!!!
  

  
 

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