Is our thinking all whacked.

[mixedup]

OK not sure if this is the right thread but I wanted to bring up something interesting Ok we are all on here running cycles of various compounds etc. Great and all of us are always looking for 10-20lb or even more gains in a cycle some of the cycles on here like drol are only 3 weeks.

Now here is the part I was thinking about after reading this months MD.

Hany who is PHil Heaths and Bill Whitmores trainer and contest prep guy talks about he keeps it real with weights gained for his guys and he is saying a gain of 3-5lbs of "REAL MUSCLE" is good a year.

Lee Priest: wrote that a guy a 1000mg of sus and dbol over I think it was 12 weeks would never gain 30lbs unless 20lbs was fat at 10lbs were muscle.

David Henry the BB pro who made DC training famous well one of them took 3 YEARS to go from 170 to 200 that ONLY 10lbs a year.

Eryk Bui took 2 years to gain 30lbs so he still only gained 15lbs a year.

So with all these pros who are on 24/7 who's life is bilit aroudn bodybuilding only put on 10-20lbs at that most per year. Why is it Regular people like us on the board get discouraged if we only gain 7lbs or a 3wk s-drol cycle etc.

Or if we all are gaining more in 3-4 weeks than the pros do in a year have we really had everything else in check work-out diet etc before going on the juice?? I am guilty of this too so not pointing fingers at anyone just food for thought.

 

[mercedesdd]

OK not sure if this is the right thread but I wanted to bring up something interesting Ok we are all on here running cycles of various compounds etc. Great and all of us are always looking for 10-20lb or even more gains in a cycle some of the cycles on here like drol are only 3 weeks.

Now here is the part I was thinking about after reading this months MD.

Hany who is PHil Heaths and Bill Whitmores trainer and contest prep guy talks about he keeps it real with weights gained for his guys and he is saying a gain of 3-5lbs of "REAL MUSCLE" is good a year.

Lee Priest: wrote that a guy a 1000mg of sus and dbol over I think it was 12 weeks would never gain 30lbs unless 20lbs was fat at 10lbs were muscle.

David Henry the BB pro who made DC training famous well one of them took 3 YEARS to go from 170 to 200 that ONLY 10lbs a year.

Eryk Bui took 2 years to gain 30lbs so he still only gained 15lbs a year.

So with all these pros who are on 24/7 who's life is bilit aroudn bodybuilding only put on 10-20lbs at that most per year. Why is it Regular people like us on the board get discouraged if we only gain 7lbs or a 3wk s-drol cycle etc.

Or if we all are gaining more in 3-4 weeks than the pros do in a year have we really had everything else in check work-out diet etc before going on the juice?? I am guilty of this too so not pointing fingers at anyone just food for thought.

The reason there gains are smaller then say someone just starting using AAS is because they are closer to their genetic capacity. when a guy first starts he can put on 20 lbs of muscle pretty quick. when you get to level of the guys you are talking about they have so much mass already that it is not possible for them to put on another 20lbs( due to something I call a genetic threshold probably not the correct term but you get the point lol). It is very hard for guys at that level to keep packing on the mass...

 

[Jayhawkk]

post more later but the short answer, in my opinion, is yes 'whacked'

 

[mixedup]

The reason there gains are smaller then say someone just starting using anabolic steroids is because they are closer to their genetic capacity. when a guy first starts he can put on 20 lbs of muscle pretty quick. when you get to level of the guys you are talking about they have so much mass already that it is not possible for them to put on another 20lbs( due to something I call a genetic threshold probably not the correct term but you get the point lol). It is very hard for guys at that level to keep packing on the mass...

WEll that's what I was thinking genetically but it just makes me think that if alot of people on here can put on 20 lbs easily were our diets, and everything else really in check?? Or did we use the juice as a shortcut. Have we really been working and being as strict as we thought??

BTW Mercedes you feeling better? hows the chest you on antibiotics now?

 

[CDB]

WEll that's what I was thinking genetically but it just makes me think that if alot of people on here can put on 20 lbs easily were our diets, and everything else really in check?? Or did we use the juice as a shortcut. Have we really been working and being as strict as we thought??

For some people yes, others no. Plus who really knows how much fat was gained by someone vs the muscle they put on? How much was water weight, etc.? No one here has done a year or two long log to find out. And would it be reliable even if they did? Plus it seems a lot of people are popping pills here lately, and while it's not a perfect rule generally orals are the favored drug of newbies until, and if, they learn better.

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

Yes, it is whacked. IMHO, the sure way to go is modest gains over a period of time. This is healthier and more satisficing IMO. I'd be pretty content with 10 quality lbs of muscle a year. That's a lot.

 

[CDB]

Yes, it is whacked. IMHO, the sure way to go is modest gains over a period of time. This is healthier and more satisficing IMO. I'd be pretty content with 10 quality lbs of muscle a year. That's a lot.

That's not unreasonable at all. I think it's the mass monster mentality pouring over into nonpro use. Yes a pro body builder will put on a ****load of mass with a longer injectable cycle. But normal people who aren't competing don't need to or necessarily want to. Especially if they're using orals, to put on a lot of mass implies a level of oral use that should be avoided. For people who use orals smaller, more moderate weight gain and, more importantly I think, body composition changes are what should be the goal. Strength gains too, which will pay dividends. In the long term given the right diet more weight on the bar means more mass gained.

 

[mercedesdd]

WEll that's what I was thinking genetically but it just makes me think that if alot of people on here can put on 20 lbs easily were our diets, and everything else really in check?? Or did we use the juice as a shortcut. Have we really been working and being as strict as we thought??

BTW Mercedes you feeling better? hows the chest you on antibiotics now?

Still feeling awful!!! The antibiotics helped cure the pneumonia but the pluresy( fluid around the lung lining) kinda just has to run its course.. It is so painful it is awful.. Hurts when you breath move ect.. Well I hope to be back to 100% soon so I can hit the gym.. Thanks for asking my friend!!

 

[CHAPS]

Phil heath is not near his genetic limit the guy has only been training for 3 years! He's just scratched the surface. And i've heard this argument before, when you do a cycle you'll gain weight from water, fat, muscle, connective tissue/support systems. Gains will slow but keep inmind how advanced alot of these guys are as well, i mean David henry had a hard time putting on weight to begin with, and look at the height of Lee priest he's not going to be competing at 220lbs+ anytime soon, he's maxed out at around 210lbs, but that's nuts for his height. And Bill Willmore is still packing on more meat, it's very possible that they are taking their time to pack on size because the want every ounce of muscle they gain to be REALLY good quality muscle.


I DO agree that ppl are expecting WAY WAY too much from a cycle, 5-10lbs off of a cycle, and i mean after pct and such is good. It's just another stepping stone, on your way to meeting your goal is the way i look at it.

 

[mixedup]

Phil heath is not near his genetic limit the guy has only been training for 3 years! He's just scratched the surface. And i've heard this argument before, when you do a cycle you'll gain weight from water, fat, muscle, connective tissue/support systems. Gains will slow but keep inmind how advanced alot of these guys are as well, i mean David henry had a hard time putting on weight to begin with, and look at the height of Lee priest he's not going to be competing at 220lbs+ anytime soon, he's maxed out at around 210lbs, but that's nuts for his height. And Bill Willmore is still packing on more meat, it's very possible that they are taking their time to pack on size because the want every ounce of muscle they gain to be REALLY good quality muscle.

Chaps yes i was thinking maybe we should all be trying to put o n REALLY good quality muscle as oppsed to gaining as much weight as we can in 3-4 week cycles. I think if you gain an HONEST 5lbs on a s-drol or pp cycle in 3 weeks you should be more than happy. and when I say Honest I mean bf% not going up, no bloating and keeping it all even 6-8 weeks after Pct. I think we get disullussioned sometimes and don't realize how big a difference 5-10lbs of muscle can really make.

 

[NYhomeboy]

I've read many an article saying that if you put on 20 lbs of muscle in an anabolic cycle run, then you're not anywhere near the point you should be to use anabolics.

 

[CHAPS]

Ya think of 5-10lbs of beef and how big that is, that's a big difference.

 

[bioman]

Lots of good points here.

Yes, I agree that putting on 20 pounds in a cycle is usually a newbie thing and it's either a lot of fat, or the person was really far from maxing out naturally.

I know in the past I have gotten really greedy for gains once a cycle starts producing results. Clean bulks turn into dirty bulks and the bulk gained ends up being a lot of fat and water that takes forever to get rid of. I tend to think this is a common problem for newbies and non pros.

5-10 pounds of lbm is a good goal and once you achieve a good cycle, with a good diet and see how much better this looks compared to the 20 pound gain, you'll be more dedicated to proper diet and cycling.

The nice thing is, with all the new PCT options available, it's far easier to keep those gains now than it was even just 2-3 years ago.

 

[TiTanUp]

Okay my question is this if your diet and training are in check and say you put on 1-2 lbs a week naturally. 12 weeks would be 12-24 lbs. So if you do a cycle of say test/deca and in that 12 weeks you would expect 10-20 lbs maybe.

So I guess I am just trying to figure how much it helps on cycles like the one listed above.

 

[fatsuperman]

Maybe it is because I'm 36 years old, but 1 to 2 lbs naturally and lean a week is not a realistic possiblity for me.

 

[TiTanUp]

I guess the answer to my own question then would be that if you are gaining 1-2 lbs a week you are not near your genetic potential.

So for a person that is just starting off with minimal experience or years of training are kinda waisting there money. I know I am no where near my potential and I have been to the darkside but after thinking about I think I will stay natrual for a while.

My thing was to get big fast as it is the mentality of most newbies or people in general. But after doing both I think I will stick to the advice given by most board members. Its kind of the hard headed way to learn but most people will not learn by listening to others.

 

[lifthardheavy]

Okay my question is this if your diet and training are in check and say you put on 1-2 lbs a week naturally. 12 weeks would be 12-24 lbs. So if you do a cycle of say test/deca and in that 12 weeks you would expect 10-20 lbs maybe.

So I guess I am just trying to figure how much it helps on cycles like the one listed above.

if a guy gains 12-24 lbs naturally in 12 weeks, he's not gonna gain 10-20# in the same time with test/deca. Or maybe you mean 10-20 more lbs.

With anabolic steroids you should gain at least as much LBM in 12 weeks as you would in the entire YEAR naturally.

 

[gotripped]

I can barely gain 5 lbs in 20 weeks much less 2 lbs a week. WTF!

I sometimes feel that genetics limit and there should be a damn DNA alteration procedure such as the one done to certain cattle. A nice myostatin inhibition product. That product would reap GREAT dividends.

 

[mixedup]

Okay my question is this if your diet and training are in check and say you put on 1-2 lbs a week naturally. 12 weeks would be 12-24 lbs. So if you do a cycle of say test/deca and in that 12 weeks you would expect 10-20 lbs maybe.

So I guess I am just trying to figure how much it helps on cycles like the one listed above.

Titan are we talking about Lean Muscle not fat or water?? IF so lets put this into perspective. a newbie right diet training in check 1lb of lbm per week 1 year (52 weeksx1lb)

52lbs of lbm in one year. Now it can be done but it's not going to duplicate the next year and a person who can put on 52lb in year has no buisness whatsoever around juice.

 

[gotripped]

Take it like this. From your first cycle you're probably going to gain alot. But now I'm starting to think PHs aren't going to do much for me besides strength and I'll have to let my genetics gain as they will. For my first cycle I went from 160-195 or so... I know I hit 195. Then I stopped the cycle, did PCT continued to eat alot. Then got sick, then had to do some intensive cardiovascular training, didn't get enough calories and even after that I came out at around 9% body fat and weighed around 175-180. So there ya have it. First cycle you get about 15-20 pounds kept out of it. Obviously, my genetic limitation hadn't been met yet, and I'm sure it's still not met, I just won't move as fast though. If ya want to get around that as a non-pro, take HGH and IGF1Lr3. Pro's cycle year round. And get blood tests every 4 weeks.

 

[lifthardheavy]

Folks let's make this clear. Absolutely NO ONE is gonna gain 2 pounds of MUSCLE per week naturally, except maybe the during the first month of training. Not even a 19 yr old. Anyone who gains 2# of weight per week will end up a whale in a year because 3/4 of it is fat.

With steroids, it's reasonable to gain up to 2 pounds of muscle per week if you're below your genetic limit. For people at or near the limit, 1# of muscle per week is reasonable.

 

[gotripped]

Folks let's make this clear. Absolutely NO ONE is gonna gain 2 pounds of MUSCLE per week naturally, except maybe the during the first month of training. Not even a 19 yr old. Anyone who gains 2# of weight per week will end up a whale in a year because 3/4 of it is fat.

With steroids, it's reasonable to gain up to 2 pounds of muscle per week if you're below your genetic limit. For people at or near the limit, 1# of muscle per week is reasonable.

Well let's see... With TRN and Zol, I gained 5 lbs for a 4 week cycle. I guess that's pretty good under that standard. As I leaned out to 9% and gained 5 lbs.