New PHs and Alopecia (Hair-Loss)

[Rage (SoCal)]

With all the lovely discussion brought on by BigV that provides information that includes the causes, the process, and remedies - I feel that more attention needs to be given to this topic in regards to the relatively new pro-hormones or designer steroids that have hit the market. Unfortunately for us, unlike true anabolic steroids that has been trialed and tested for years, it is sometimes very difficult to predict the behavior of these compounds.

The extremely valuable information posted by BV can be viewed here:

Hair Loss Prevention thread




Just recently I embarked on a phera + halo cycle that I initially planned on running for 6 weeks. I stopped that cycle, today as a matter of fact (after 1 week). The androgenic side effects brought on by phera are extremely fast acting and if one is left unprepared (as I was) it can leave you with some unexpected negative side effects in reference to your hair. My hair started to thin out at an accelerated pace and my hairlines was hit as well. Now, I thought I was prepared (Minoxidil, Spiro, and Nizoral) but evidently it is not enough to stop high DHT at a systematic level as well as at the scalp level. As you guys may know, it is many mens’ genes to be susceptible to abnormally high DHT levels causing MPB (or at least that’s the laymen’s version of it). What happens while ON, especially with some androgenic heavy compounds such as test, a lot of hair loss can occur. Of course we can not totally eliminate DHT levels, I don’t even think we’d want to, but they need to be in check.

I thought I was prepared and wasn't expecting such effects as I read a lot of feedback and this hasn't been a very noted side effect that many users have experienced. IMO it is essential for one to be fully prepared with the proper ancillaries to lower DHT levels both systematically and at the scalp. (Refer to the above links for different stages of MPB treatment).

So basically, I stopped my cycle to get all of this in check because at the age of 22 it is a little early to be losing my hair. Remember guys, CONSISTENCY IS KEY, when it comes to this treatment. [highlight]BigV (and thank you for your help with all of this[/highlight]) did an exception job at exemplifying this with his experience. He shared that he began to make wonderful progress and got to a point where he was pleased with his progression, so he slacked on his treatment. What happened? That’s right, accelerated hair loss occurred. Please keep this in mind.

What does all of this mean?

Well, many things and many of them I don't about. But if it's one thing that is for sure is that many aspects of these compounds are unknown and before starting to use these compounds one must consider all aspects associated. [highlight]For the purpose of this thread, hair shedding should be heavily considered when considering Designers, mainly for those that are genetically predisposed to it. [/highlight]

So, let's get some feedback on what you guys have experienced as far as these new designer's are concerned and the hairline.

I'll start :

Phera @ 20mg ED experienced considerable hair shedding and hair-line receding.


Superdrol @ 20mg ED + TRN 4mg ED: Experienced shedding and effects at the hair line but nothing as bad as phera. The thing about this is that I thought it was the SD when in fact it was most likely the m-trn as that’s more of an androgenic compound or at least we thinks its supposed to be.


I would think that Ergo and M-TST have great potential for hitting the hairline quite hard.


Thanks for sharing.


P.S. Don't tell me to shave it all off. Some bros can pull it off but I have huge ears and a big ass head...quite frankly I'd look ridiculous and my wife would hate it.

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

Heh whoa...when did I get two stars!

:dance:

 

[same_old]

i've been saying this for years - all these new designers (and sh1t, all the old school stuff, for that matter) has a potential for hairloss. even stuff that isnt androgenic, like turanabol/halodrol, anavar, superdrol - these still find their way to the AR in the scalp and cause hairloss. the latter 2, being DHT derivatives - i can understand their affinity for the ARs in scalp and prostate, but tbol? doesnt that A-ring mod prevent interaction with with 5AR?? it would reduce to 17aa-4-chloro-dehydroboldenone i believe (aka 4-chloro-M1T)

another is EQ - supposedly this stuff has very little affinity for 5AR, yet people frequently report hairloss on it. i got itching on it, but no loss. once i stopped, it stopped too (i still loved the effects)

anyway, just assume that every steroid can do it. try out what works...remember that lower dosages and short durations are less likely to do it. if you dont like what's happening (itching is your first clue), drop the stuff and find something else.

oh and stay the hell away from winny!

rage - whose spiro topical did you use? i still think that stuff has potential if used right, but we need to find out whose (WHCP, CEM, etc) is best, and in what form (cream or clear)

adding to your list - the worst offenders were:

MDHT (within a week my whole head itched horribly)
max-LMG (tren analogue, no suprise)
ergomax
1-ad/1-T (rough, being already 5A-reduced and so freaking strong)

easiest:

test + 5AR inhibitor (thank you lord!)
anavar
tbol (itch but no loss or recession, and i used it for quite a while)
MOHN (weak, so that's no surprise)
superdrol (considering how strong it is...if i only use it 2 weeks or so i'm fine)

 

[gotripped]

Damn. I haven't really noticed any hairloss problems. I'm pretty lucky I guess.

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

i've been saying this for years - all these new designers (and sh1t, all the old school stuff, for that matter) has a potential for hairloss. even stuff that isnt androgenic, like turanabol/halodrol, anavar, superdrol - these still find their way to the AR in the scalp and cause hairloss. the latter 2, being DHT derivatives - i can understand their affinity for the ARs in scalp and prostate, but tbol? doesnt that A-ring mod prevent interaction with with 5AR?? it would reduce to 17aa-4-chloro-dehydroboldenone i believe (aka 4-chloro-M1T)

another is EQ - supposedly this stuff has very little affinity for 5AR, yet people frequently report hairloss on it. i got itching on it, but no loss. once i stopped, it stopped too (i still loved the effects)

anyway, just assume that every steroid can do it. try out what works...remember that lower dosages and short durations are less likely to do it. if you dont like what's happening (itching is your first clue), drop the stuff and find something else.

oh and stay the hell away from winny!

rage - whose spiro topical did you use? i still think that stuff has potential if used right, but we need to find out whose (WHCP, CEM, etc) is best, and in what form (cream or clear)

adding to your list - the worst offenders were:

MDHT (within a week my whole head itched horribly)
max-LMG (tren analogue, no suprise)
ergomax
1-ad/1-T (rough, being already 5A-reduced and so freaking strong)

easiest:

test + 5AR inhibitor (thank you lord!)
anavar
tbol (itch but no loss or recession, and i used it for quite a while)
MOHN (weak, so that's no surprise)
superdrol (considering how strong it is...if i only use it 2 weeks or so i'm fine)

Excellent information, Same_Old. I have Spiro that is prescribed for a buddy. He got it off a legit site for me. I'll get the name over soon. This is the type of information I was hoping would be produced. All these little problems associated with these damn designers can be really frustration. Best solution: Don't do any of them. Even better solution (w/ some risk involved): Join the darkside.

 

[same_old]

Damn. I haven't really noticed any hairloss problems. I'm pretty lucky I guess.

eh, we're all lucky in our ways. some have giant penises, some dont have the MPB gene.

you can decide which is luckier.

:dance:

j/k bro!

 

[gotripped]

eh, we're all lucky in our ways. some have giant penises, some dont have the MPB gene.

you can decide which is luckier.

:dance:

j/k bro!

Yeah I'll just have to stick with my 7 inches.

 

[SubliminalX]

I'll just add that 8 weeks of Activate + Reloaded jumped my free test almost 3-fold, but I'm on Finasteride and a little Minoxidil too. My hairline held steady. And I do have androgenic alopecia in the form of a slight widow's peak. I highly recommend just getting on Finasteride for anyone who thinks they may be susceptible. Even for compounds that aren't reduced by 5AR, reducing endogenous TEST-->DHT conversion will lessen the assault on the hair.

I'm on TRN right now, I'll report back later about the temples.

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

I'll just add that 8 weeks of Activate + Reloaded jumped my free test almost 3-fold, but I'm on Finasteride and a little Minoxidil too. My hairline held steady. And I do have androgenic alopecia in the form of a slight widow's peak. I highly recommend just getting on Finasteride for anyone who thinks they may be susceptible. Even for compounds that aren't reduced by 5AR, reducing endogenous TEST-->DHT conversion will lessen the assault on the hair.

I'm on TRN right now, I'll report back later about the temples.

Thanks for the input...how much Fina are you running ED?

 

[SubliminalX]

Thanks for the input...how much Fina are you running ED?

1.25mg ED if I'm not on anything. I go 2.5mg if on, whether it's Activate or any of the other new oral hormones. I haven't had any bad effects from using Finast straight for almost 6 months now. So I'm just gonna stay on it and increase as needed.

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

Brilliant. I just started it yesterday. Hopefully it will help me grow some back w/ the combination of spiro of minoxidil and oh yeah nizoral. I'm going to pick me up a lazer brush too.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

1mg Finasteride per 100mg of Testosterone.
That is my conclusion.

as for the new PHs, definitely hairloss potential.

in the future I make run a few of them (separately, with test of course) with Dutasteride.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

hey same old, how much Finasteride do you use with test? Proportionally

 

[same_old]

hey same old, how much Finasteride do you use with test? Proportionally

i've used dutasteride on my last 2, and finasteride before that. usually 2.5mg of finasteride and .5mg of dutasteride (one or the other of course)

i didnt know dutasteride stayed in the blood that long - that's serious. guess i'll go back to finasteride (worked as well, but seemed to hit libido more, oddly enough)...i only use 5AR inhibitors on-cycle, as i generally dont lose any ground when not juicing.

 

[SJA]

Just shave it off

CEM's spiro works very well. Very skunk-like though so I wouldn't put it on during the day.

 

[SubliminalX]

Just shave it off

CEM's spiro works very well. Very skunk-like though so I wouldn't put it on during the day.

Dr. Lee's from minoxidil.com doesn't smell. They figured out a way to neutralize it somehow.

 

[same_old]

Dr. Lee's from minoxidil.com doesn't smell. They figured out a way to neutralize it somehow.

they apparently also figured out a way to make it go systemic, unfortunately.

thanks for the smell report, though, guys. seriously. what about wholesale hair care products' stuff? anyone ever get a whiff?

 

[SubliminalX]

they apparently also figured out a way to make it go systemic, unfortunately.

thanks for the smell report, though, guys. seriously. what about wholesale hair care products' stuff? anyone ever get a whiff?

I'm not so sure if there's any real evidence for that. I vaguely remember one poster saying his endogenous Test levels went down from topical spiro use. Either that or he felt symptoms of low Test while on it. But others have had no complaints, including myself. I just keep it to on cycle use.

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

I'm not so sure if there's any real evidence for that. I vaguely remember one poster saying his endogenous Test levels went down from topical spiro use. Either that or he felt symptoms of low Test while on it. But others have had no complaints, including myself. I just keep it to on cycle use.

Very interesting. I do the same with it.

Are there any signs that Fina is working?

 

[same_old]

I'm not so sure if there's any real evidence for that. I vaguely remember one poster saying his endogenous Test levels went down from topical spiro use. Either that or he felt symptoms of low Test while on it. But others have had no complaints, including myself. I just keep it to on cycle use.

the guy had blood tests taken, for chrissakes. his "experiment" was as close to a control as any i have ever seen. empirical evidence, even outside a clinical setting, is evidence, as demonstrated by all these websites where we get our understandings of how this stuff all works by those who have used and use.

that you keep the use to on-cycle means it is far harder to discern systemic effects of topical spiro from your claim.

the carrier that the spiro is in plays a HUGE role in whether it goes systemic or not. we dont know what the doctors in the studies that showed no systemic absorption used as a carrier (i dont think) - and neither do these companies releasing topical spiro.

CEM's stuff is alcohol based, but that's as much as they would say. i tend to think alcohol based stuff penetrates.

 

[SubliminalX]

the guy had blood tests taken, for chrissakes. his "experiment" was as close to a control as any i have ever seen. empirical evidence, even outside a clinical setting, is evidence, as demonstrated by all these websites where we get our understandings of how this stuff all works by those who have used and use.

that you keep the use to on-cycle means it is far harder to discern systemic effects of topical spiro from your claim.

the carrier that the spiro is in plays a HUGE role in whether it goes systemic or not. we dont know what the doctors in the studies that showed no systemic absorption used as a carrier (i dont think) - and neither do these companies releasing topical spiro.

CEM's stuff is alcohol based, but that's as much as they would say. i tend to think alcohol based stuff penetrates.

That's interesting. Mind sharing the details of this? I'm assuming he was clean of any exogenous hormones. Got his T levels measured before topical Spiro use. Then within weeks got T levels measured again?

 

[bigfucer]

Has anyone tried alzaic acid + minox? If so, what have ur results been. would you recommend over spiro?

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Wholesale's 2% spiro didn't smell for me.. Unless they changed the formula.. i didn't find it effective though - but others do. I haven't ordered anything from Wholesale in a long time - several years ago I got into a fight with the owner (go figure). I trust Lee's products more and honestly the prices aren't that dissimilar these days. Wholesale's have definitely increased in the past few years while Lee's have not

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Has anyone tried alzaic acid + minox? If so, what have ur results been. would you recommend over spiro?

I like it better. but the 5% spiro for the hairline.
It really think in order for minoxidil to be useful you are going to need at least some Finasteride.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

the carrier that the spiro is in plays a HUGE role in whether it goes systemic or not.

this is very true. crap, I forget what I going to say about it. damn it, well the claim is true - hopefully i remember

 

[bigred869]

I ran a 4-week cycle of Phera and M-TRN and didn't notice any alopecia problems while on, but now, 4 weeks later, it seems like my hair is thinner and it might have receded just a bit which is detrimental to a man in his early 20's. I am also running 700mg test. Neither of my grandpas nor my father have had problems with hairloss and I have ran 4 cycles of test before with no problem. Maybe it is the PH's.

 

[SubliminalX]

I ran a 4-week cycle of Phera and M-TRN and didn't notice any alopecia problems while on, but now, 4 weeks later, it seems like my hair is thinner and it might have receded just a bit which is detrimental to a man in his early 20's. I am also running 700mg test. Neither of my grandpas nor my father have had problems with hairloss and I have ran 4 cycles of test before with no problem. Maybe it is the PH's.

Lack of baldness in the family may not necessarily mean you're 100% not susceptible. Then older men in the family may have been susceptible, but not to normal levels of androgens. You, on the other hand, have uber amounts of chemicals in your system. Thus, you may have crossed that threshold that makes your hairs thin. The good news is that you are probably more likely to grow it back using Propecia and Minox, even if you're cruising on Test (just use enough Proscar to get the DHT levels down to normal ranges -- 1mg per 100mg of Test as posted above).

 

[same_old]

Wholesale's 2% spiro didn't smell for me.. Unless they changed the formula.. i didn't find it effective though - but others do. I haven't ordered anything from Wholesale in a long time - several years ago I got into a fight with the owner (go figure). I trust Lee's products more and honestly the prices aren't that dissimilar these days. Wholesale's have definitely increased in the past few years while Lee's have not

Dr. Lee's is what the guy used. if i recall, he got T tested the morning after administering the spiro...he had baseline levels done shortly before starting, and got it checked again a few weeks later and it was back up where it was before spiro. no androgen use, he claims.

i have no idea where i saw the guy's post...was it here? i'll look.

 

[BigVrunga]

i have no idea where i saw the guy's post...was it here? i'll look.

Its back in the hairloss prevention thread somewhere, but I do distinctly remember that person and his issues with spiro going systemic. It was Dr.Lee's brand and from reading his posts it definitely did seem like spiro was the culprit.

Although that's only one report, its cause for caution because spironolactone is such a potent anti-androgen. IMO, its use should be restricted to on-cycle only.

And a general anti-androgen like spiro/fluridil should definitely be included on any cycle of these new designer anabolics. No one really knows what's going on in your system, if they're converting to DHT and how, etc. I'd actually be a little weary of running finasteride alongside a new PH, because who knows if and what they're using 5AR for. If one of those needs 5AR to reduce to a less potent androgen (like deca converts to DHN via 5AR), you'd be shooting yourself in the foot. With the 'old school' PH's it was easy to tell - they all converted to known anabolics. The new stuff - its anyone's guess.

On the first page, same old mentioned itching when running some anabolics:

another is EQ - supposedly this stuff has very little affinity for 5AR, yet people frequently report hairloss on it. i got itching on it, but no loss. once i stopped, it stopped too (i still loved the effects)

You guys have to read this article:

Itching Inflammation sebum and Hair loss

And a statement worthy of your attention:

It has been hypothesized that this itching, which almost always seem to appear at the onset of MPB, is a response to the hormonal changes going on in the scalp.

So there's another facet to MPB that until recently we really hadnt discussed at length in the hair loss prevention thread. Perhaps, these compounds that are not obviously converting into DHT via 5AR are making their way to the scalp, and contributing to hair loss not only because they're potent androgens but because they are aggrivating the inflammatory response in scalp tissue.

Nizoral is pretty much a given on any hair loss treatment protocol, and that does seem to arrest inflammation as part of its effectiveness. Ketoconazole is also supposed to be a decent anti-androgen, so shampooing with Nizoral and making sure to let it sit on you scalp for 5-10 minutes with each use is a good idea. Recently, Ive also been reading up on Emu oil and its seemingly potent anti-inflammatory properties:

Emu oil hair loss and frontal regrowth

I dont know how valid this is, but it's certainly interesting:

Emu Oil has also been shown to be a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor in target tissues when topically applied, which likely contributes significantly to its hair growth properties.

Search 'Emu Oil' in pub med and you'll find a bunch of studies proving its anti-inflammatory properties.

Ive just started using it this week, applying a few drops to my scalp and massaging in 2x per day. Of course its too early to tell if its doing any good, but based on all the evidence it certainly looks promising.

As Rage mentioned, I went through quite a serious 'shedding phase' when i started slacking off on my hair loss treatments. That was about 3-4 months ago, and since returning to the regimen most of what I lost has grown back. It takes *months* to regrow hair, so it really is essential that you're very strict with whatever you choose to do. And sufferers of MPB remember: just because your off cycle doesnt mean your safe.

So right now, we're looking to arrest hair loss by attacking all the angle we know about:

Lowering Levels of DHT/androgens in the scalp

Reducing Inflammation

Stimulating Hair Regrowth

A successful hair regrowth regimen will implement compounds that achieve the above. Right now, this is what Im doing:

Regrowth Treatment Shampoo (Dr.Lee's version of Nizoral) - EOD
-Reduce inflammation, increase absorption of minoxidil, possible androgen inhibitor

LLLT Therapy (homemade laser brush) - 10 min EOD
-no one knows how this really works but it sure seems to - possibly by reducing inflammation (thats what medical lasers used for healing do as well). Its also been shown to stimulate hair regrowth.

1mL 5% Minoxidil/AA solution 2x ED
Stimulate regrowth, inhibit DHT in the scalp

Emu Oil 2x ED
Anti-inflammatory

Finasteride 1mg ED
Inhibits Type 2 5AR enzyme, lowers scalp levels of DHT as much as30%.

Ive actually discontinued Finasteride for the time being. I was getting it from WWHP but gave some serious thought to using a chemical every day that Im not 100% of its purity. Im going to my Doc on the Sept 8th for a routine physical, Ill be picking up a script for finasteride. When putting a chemical in your body, especially something that's intended for use everyday for life - you should be absolutely sure you are using an unadultered, pharmaceutical grade compound.

I think we should also be looking into nutritional supplements that have shown promise to hair health as well. Stuff that could raise GH levels, etc. My recent experiments with hyaluronic acid seem to point to it being great for joint health, it seems to promote a healthy scalp as well:

http://www.hairsite.com/late-hyaluronic.htm

Who knows if it works, but its cheap

To bring focus back to Rage's original thread topic - if you're using a new PH and you're concerned about hair loss, IMHO you should throw the kitchen sink at it. That is, protect your hair through every means possible. The treatments described above should be a good place to start, with possibly adding 2% spiro throughout the cycle and PCT for added protection. Ive run 1-test twice, and although Im very prone to MPB I didnt loose any hair using Spiro/Minox/AA/Nizoral while on cycle. (1st cycle was WWHP's spiro, second was from Dr.Lee)

If you're genetically prone to MPB and you want to try and save your hair, your best bet is to find a system that works for you and stay with it, forever. You can drop the spiro when PCT is done, but you really do need to keep up with everything else - in most cases, any ground made with hair regrowth treatments will quickly be lost once that treatment is discontinued.

BV

 

[same_old]

good post bro. i recenty found out that the EQ itch is brought on because EQ is converting via 5BR, not 5AR, to the 5B variant of 1-Test (dihydroboldenone), which is basically just as potent...finasteride will have no effect on this.

i thought everyone associated the on-cycle itch to scalp irritation by any capable androgen binding to the AR in the scalp and degrading the follicles.

BigV - how smelly was the WSHCP spiro? did u use the cream or the liquid? i am considering picking up the cream, for a late-day supplement to my fluridil protocol

btw, does anyone know what's in fluridil???

 

[CEDeoudes59]

I didn't find the Wholesale products smelly at all. I'm just skeptical of their quality. Now that their prices are just short of Dr. Lee's - it's a no brainer to me to order from minoxidil.com

additionally, you are correct that hairloss from EQ will not be helped by finasteride.. in fact, I found EQ to make me shed like crazy. because of the limited anabolic gains from EQ, I very much dislike the compound now.

 

[BigVrunga]

additionally, you are correct that hairloss from EQ will not be helped by finasteride.. in fact, I found EQ to make me shed like crazy. because of the limited anabolic gains from EQ, I very much dislike the compound now

That's really interesting - I had no idea EQ could aggrivate MPB in some. Doing a bit of searching I found this post by w.llewellyn:

That said, I also think the fact that hair loss has been noted with a wide variety of steroids, and not just with testosterone or DHT based compounds, says a lot. I really support the notion that DHT is not unique in regards to its ability to promote MPB, and it is simple androgen receptor stimulation in the scalp that is to blame. That would mean that all AAS, given the right genetics and level of activity in the scalp (dosage), could potentially trigger MPB. Whether you ascribe to this or not, certainly you shouldn’t let the fact that a steroid is not a derivative of DHT lull you into a false sense of security.

From here:

propecia and eq - EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Forums

This points again to the necessity of a topical general androgen blocker when on cycle.

good post bro. i recenty found out that the EQ itch is brought on because EQ is converting via 5BR, not 5AR, to the 5B variant of 1-Test (dihydroboldenone), which is basically just as potent...finasteride will have no effect on this.

same old can you like to where you found that info? Id like to check it out!

BV

 

[SubliminalX]

Is it not true that anything placed on the skin will almost always have some systemic absorption? I mean, minoxidil placed only on the scalp causes hair growth on the face and body -- it's one of the warnings of the product, and I've seen hair growth between my eyebrows. I'm not sure if you can get something to be absorbed by the skin and have it stay there 100% locally.

 

[same_old]

That's really interesting - I had no idea EQ could aggrivate MPB in some. Doing a bit of searching I found this post by w.llewellyn:

From here:

propecia and eq - EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Forums

This points again to the necessity of a topical general androgen blocker when on cycle.


same old can you like to where you found that info? Id like to check it out!

BV

you're in the right neighborhood. i think i read it on EF. i always knew it had low affinity for 5AR, i just didnt realize it was so fond of 5BR.

i am regularly surprised when people dont grasp that virtually all androgens bind to the AR in the scalp to some extent. i've gotten the itchies from a number of purported "MPB-friendly" AAS. with structures so similar to DHT in some cases (winny, var, masteron, primo, proviron, superdrol, anadrol) it should be no surprise that they attack hair follicles in the same way DHT does. then there are wild cards like deca (pretty good, from what i hear, but should always be done with test, and now you need a 5AR inhibitor to clock DHT, but that makes the deca worse - !!!), EQ (see above, and before), dbol (same arguments as EQ for the most part), tren (i honestly dont know why tren hates hairlines so much. other nandrolone family members are not this bad)

anyway, the safest hairline bet is test + finasteride. test itself (unreduced) doesnt seem to bind much at all to the AR in the scalp. many bros, myself included, have found this to work well.

 

[BigVrunga]

anyway, the safest hairline bet is test + finasteride. test itself (unreduced) doesnt seem to bind much at all to the AR in the scalp. many bros, myself included, have found this to work well.

I would agree. Its your body's natural anabolic, and you're treating its negative hair-loss effects witha proven compound.

Is it not true that anything placed on the skin will almost always have some systemic absorption? I mean, minoxidil placed only on the scalp causes hair growth on the face and body -- it's one of the warnings of the product, and I've seen hair growth between my eyebrows. I'm not sure if you can get something to be absorbed by the skin and have it stay there 100% locally.

Minoxidil's molecular weight is 209.248 g/mol, so it definitely could end up systemic and Im sure a small part of it does. Here's a great page on minoxidil info:

DrugBank: Minoxidil

Spiro's molecular weight is 416.574 g/mol, so theoretically it could go systemic as well, as generally anything with a molecular weight ~400 and below can effectively penetrate the skin.

DrugBank: Spironolactone

Azelaic Acid has a molecular weight of 188.22. so it too has a propensity to become systemically absorbed:

DrugBank: Azelaic Acid

So, the possiblity of systemic absorption is very real - however looking at the figures:

Minoxidil is usually prescribed orally in doses of .2-1mg/kg of bodyweight. So for a 200lb person, the minimum daily dose of minoxidil would be 18mg, of which 90% would be absorbed by the GI tract (~16mg).

If using a 5% minoxidil solution on the scalp at 1ml 2x per day (40mg applied topically per day), you'd have to estimate what they amount absorbed systemically could be. For a matrix designed specifically to pull drugs through the skin, that can be as high as 40%. For an 2-propanol/propylene glycol based solution and applied to the scalp, which is very thick, I would assume that number is somewhere between 10-20% at the maximum.

So 40mg/day would mean 4-8mg of minoxidil abosorbed into the bloodstream, or about 1/4 - 1/2 the minimum effective oral dose for a 200lb person.

Of course, its the percentage of transdermal absorption through the scalp that is the deciding factor here. It may be higher for some than others, etc.

Here's a great read on a toxicology report for transdermal minoxidil:

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia98/brief/34eb2f.pdf

Orally its a blood pressure medication, so any side effects would be those associated with hypotension.

BV

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

Very interesting stuff, BV. Great info.

Please keep us update on the Emu oil. fo rthe time beign I'm definetely going to pick up some AA. That stuff sounds very promosing.

 

[bubsnt3]

I thought that I had read somewhere about a topical chemical that bound to the AR in the scalp and thus blocked it from "attack" by any androgens(not a 5ar blocker but a true androgen blocker). Is this true? What is the name of the compound?
One other thing that I found interesting is that they said that it is common for telogen effluvium to happen to women shortly after birth with the citing factor abrupt hormonal changes. They then said that all of the hair usually grows back within 1 year. I was thinking that maybe if you don't have a high enough androgen level in your body to sustain the blockage of the hair follicles that the hair might either naturally grow back after given some time or that a treatment of minoxil might open them back up and then instead of it closing again when you stop(like it would for men that normally had MPB) it might not have the factors there to cause the hair follicles to close/constrict again. I made the mistake of running PP/SD at 30mg each ED and my scalp started to itch and a noticable amount of hair fell out, as far as I could tell when I stopped the PP it stoped. My thought is that at 22(and not having it really run in my moms or dads side of the family) I don't have the conditions neccesary to support the unfriendly enviorment for hair follicles(I am also guessing that this is not MPB but telogen effluvium but who knows) so if I can reopen/unclog/regenerate the subject hair follicles then unless I subject them to further conditions that can cause this then it should go back to normal.?.?

 

[BigVrunga]

If you're not genetically predisposed to MPB, then I would take a guess and say that you have a good chance of your hair returning to normal. I'd apply something like spiro 1x per day, because who knows how long the metabolites of those compounds are in your system. And wash your hair EOD with Nizoral or similar (2% Ketoconazole), because it not only helps block androgen receptors in the scalp, but reduces inflammation as well (which I believe is a cause of itching). Laser comb would be a good idea as well.

BV

 

[bubsnt3]

If you're not genetically predisposed to MPB, then I would take a guess and say that you have a good chance of your hair returning to normal. I'd apply something like spiro 1x per day, because who knows how long the metabolites of those compounds are in your system. And wash your hair EOD with Nizoral or similar (2% Ketoconazole), because it not only helps block androgen receptors in the scalp, but reduces inflammation as well (which I believe is a cause of itching). Laser comb would be a good idea as well.

BV

Thanks... Is this spiro?
I thought that I had read somewhere about a topical chemical that bound to the AR in the scalp and thus blocked it from "attack" by any androgens(not a 5ar blocker but a true androgen blocker). Is this true? What is the name of the compound?

 

[bubsnt3]

I just used the search function....WOW......
Thanks for your help.

 

[BigVrunga]

That would be either spironolactone or fluridil. There's another chem that's not available yet...cant remember the name ATM but its in the hair loss thread somewhere

Spiro is the most readily available. Fluridil has a longer half life and is supposed to be more effective.

BV

 

[bubsnt3]

Thanks Again BV; quality info..

 

[same_old]

That would be either spironolactone or fluridil. There's another chem that's not available yet...cant remember the name ATM but its in the hair loss thread somewhere

Spiro is the most readily available. Fluridil has a longer half life and is supposed to be more effective.

BV

as a little update, fluridil is not completely keeping the itchies away...granted, i have not started in with the finasteride yet, and i am using more androgenic compounds than normal (dbol, M-TRN!) along with lots of test and boldenone, but i am doing fluridil 2x/day and nizoral ED (with conditioner afterward). it's not as bad as it was with stuff like max LMG or 1-ad, but there is an intermittent itch. i picked up some spiro cream. i have super short hair, so i think the cream will work fine, plus i think it might not absorb as much (good thing), look less greasy, and dry my scalp out less than an alcohol-based liquid would.

anyway, no signs of any hairloss or thinning yet, but i am watching it like a hawk....speaking of hawks, they have a widow's peak too

anyway - for anyone with MPB who was thinking fluridil would be the be-all and end-all of androgen-related hairloss, it appears as if the holy grail is a false one. i think it is helping, but not eliminating the symptoms, and therefore probably not blocking the androgens entirely.

wish me luck!

no, seriously - wish me luck or i will find you and hurt you :trout:

 

[BigVrunga]

Thanks for the update on Fluridil SameOld!!! That's valuable, as we havent heard from many who have used it. Are you using the laser brush at all? Im therorizing that the itch is due to inflammatory cells in the scalp being aggrevated by androgeninc hormones...the laser brush could possibly have anti-inflammatory effects. So could soaking your head in ice water, but I dont know about that one

BV

 

[Rage (SoCal)]

Thanks for the update, Same Old.

Best of luck.

 

[bubsnt3]

Beings that spiro has a 1 and a half hour half life would it be neccesary to apply it every 2 hours? That could be very inconvenient(not as inconvenient as no hair though...).

 

[SubliminalX]

For itching, I personally found copper peptides to help. Tricomin gives a very, very chill feeling. But it's expensive. I use American Crew Revitalize now. Now quite as cool, but it has the same copper content and gets the job done.

 

[BigVrunga]

Ive heard of copper peptides being good for hair loss. I wonder what their mechanism of action is. If they are actually relieving the cause of the itching, or just masking the itching itself?

BV